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Yip. Featured this in my blog a few months ago. Got tired of Wraith Knights, so I actually build the dual Dominion list and can actually field it.

 Jancoran wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 pretre wrote:
You can't replace Exorcists with Dominions; they are different FOC slots.

The slot is irrelevant. The role is what Im after.

Except it isn't. Unless you're running double CAD, you can't take more Dominions by skipping Exorcists.

Are you suggesting we never take a second CAD?

No, but if you're taking double cad, you're dropping a lot more than just exorcists to get more dominions.

 pretre wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 pretre wrote:
You can't replace Exorcists with Dominions; they are different FOC slots.

The slot is irrelevant. The role is what Im after.

Except it isn't. Unless you're running double CAD, you can't take more Dominions by skipping Exorcists.

Are you suggesting we never take a second CAD?

No, but if you're taking double cad, you're dropping a lot more than just exorcists to get more dominions.

Not if you're already tasking four troops. So not really.

Point is the same. Dominions are better answers than exorcists to the tank/heavy duty problem.

I prefer to mix my Dom's with Exorcists. Double CAD for six units of Dom's isn't the only way (or best IMO) to play Sisters.

TBH i don't see this as a reflection on dominions but more a reflection of the randomness of exorcists.

Drider wrote:
TBH i don't see this as a reflection on dominions but more a reflection of the randomness of exorcists.

Agreed. I keep bringing Exos because when they perform well-- roughly 1 game in every 3 or 4, and it only takes a single round of rolling all 5s and 6s to shock an opponent-- they draw extra fire for several matchups on reputation alone and AV13 soaks it up pretty well.

I have 4 Immolators, but only 3 full squads of melta Doms, although I guess I could go back to 3 specials per squad. Usually when I bring a second CAD, it's to get Seraphim for Celestine to roll with and to get HF Rets to advance behind the wall of scouting melta, not to get extra Doms.

So, on the 26th, one of my LGS is hosting a Doubles Tournament, with different scenarios for each round. The first round will be with 500 point lists, while the second round will feature 1250 point lists per player. I already know that the round 2 game will be Eternal War/Relic + Maelstrom/Deadlock, with primary points being given for getting the Relic and secondaries for achieving Tactical Objectives.

One of my friends and I have already signed up, with his Imperial Guard and my Sororitas. My teammate is thinking of running something as follows:

Yarrick
10 Veterans- 2 plasma guns, flamer, Sgt w. power maul, Grenadiers
-Chimera
10 Veterans- 2 plasma guns, flamer, Sgt w. power maul, Grenadiers
-Chimera
10 Veterans- 2 meltaguns, flamer, Sgt w. power maul, Grenadiers
-Chimera
Manticore
Baneblade- sponson lascannons


I, meanwhile, have been trying to figure out what kind of list I'll be fielding to support this "Baneblade and Friends" list. I've come up with two of the following lists, the first of which tries to maximize mobile scoring units and firepower:

Celestine- 135
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Dominions- 4 meltaguns- 105
-Immolator- twin-linked heavy flamer- 60
6 Seraphim- 2 hand flamers, SS w. meltabombs- 125
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125

Total: 1250


List #2, on the other hand, gives me a little more in the way of durability, and an Inquisitor with servo skulls to reduce scatter on blasts/counter White Scar scouting shenanigans:


Celestine- 135
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Dominions- 4 meltaguns- 105
-Repressor- 75
5 Dominions- 4 meltaguns- 105
-Repressor- 75
8 Seraphim- 2 hand flamers, SS w. meltabombs- 155
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor- power armour, 3 servo-skulls- 42

Total: 1242



Any thoughts on either list (and on the Guard list too, while we're at it?) Also, any recommendations on dealing with the following:

-Flyers (especially Flyrants, ooh how I hate them)
-Psyker bombs/Librarius Conclave deathstars
-White Scars (again, how I hate them)

Criticism, feedback, and above all advice, are appreciated.

Drider wrote:
TBH i don't see this as a reflection on dominions but more a reflection of the randomness of exorcists.

I'll buy that but it makes it no less true. The random nature of the Exorcist and the reality that it can and often is one-shot'd by the crazy number of alpha strikes people can and do bring now is highly relevant.

Weather or not your bringing an Exo or Dominoes, if your opponent wants them dead on the alpha then they'll be dead on the alpha. With that being said one of the few ways to combat "the crazy number of alpha strikes people can and do bring" is to break up the points to go hard MSU and points wise an Exo is the cheaper option.

If you want to avoid losing stuff during an Alpha strike you can always outflank the domms.

Yes I know scouting is usually better but I've had a lot of success with outflanking

Also don't forget to try and deploy your exo behind los blocking terrain. First turn move them 6" and fire at full effect.

Drider wrote:
Weather or not your bringing an Exo or Dominoes, if your opponent wants them dead on the alpha then they'll be dead on the alpha. With that being said one of the few ways to combat "the crazy number of alpha strikes people can and do bring" is to break up the points to go hard MSU and points wise an Exo is the cheaper option.

I would say that you have a fair amount to say about what the enemy's options are. That's the nice thing about Dominions. They dont just stand and wait for the Riptide Wing to kill them. They go kill the Riptide Wing and hide behind rhinos to weather the return fire as best they are able. So minimizing those squad sizes means minimizing how much they CAN weather. A min/max squad will just die. So i dont know what you EXACTLY mean when you say MSU but i have usually taken 8 dominion to squad to give them some ablative ability to keep thoese special weapons firing and it has paid off a lot of the time. Smaller units never get to fire twice so even though you know those woulds are there purely for show after they get out, they are kind of important.

I have used my Dominion a pretty fair amount and while I've done the six Dominion list, I split the difference now a little bit. I use one Exorcist (Red herring and hey, the sun shines, even on a dogs butt, once in a while). and three Dominion Squads. Sems to give me JUST enough of a threat that they want to drop in and kill the Exorcist. but the singular exorcist gives up little enough that I ultimately am not sad to see it go. there are ALWAYS casualties in 40K. the trick is to try and make sure you control which one and how many. The exorcist serves a purpose in that way. If the enemy has no reach or ignores it, it will probably do work eventually. it needs to keep firing for its true value to get expressed though so taking more of them isn't i nthe immediate cards. i may find a list that makes it make more sense later but not for now.

 Jancoran wrote:
A min/max squad will just die. So i dont know what you EXACTLY mean when you say MSU

I don't know how to reply to that MSU comment without coming off as condescending and I apologize in advance.

I mean Multiple Small Units, not just small in model count but small in points cost as well. The minimum amount of models and points to make the unit function effectively. Yes they get die if they're targeted but that's the point, any excess wounds are wasted and because you've spent the minimum amount of points on the unit you can put the points into getting another unit. If you take a unit of 10 models and they get attacked by something that does 10 wounds then they all die. But if you have 2 units of 5 models and that same something that does 10 wounds attacks one of those units then it dies, but you still have 1 unit of 5 models remaining. The points you spend putting those extra 3 models into a unit of dominions is not much and, yes, it does give the individual unit a bit of staying power. But if you take those extra 36 points and you add it up across how many units you could have hand another entirely separate unit. The same argument extends to Dominions Vs Exorcists if you are looking at them doing a similar job. The way I play my Dominions is 165 points (5 girls, 4 melta and an Immolator) Vs an Exo for 125 points. 40 points is not much but it adds quickly across multiple units.

 Jancoran wrote:
there are ALWAYS casualties in 40K. the trick is to try and make sure you control which one and how many.

As you say there are always casualties in 40k and the trick is to control those casualties. The way you're talking about doing it is to spend a few extra points into each unit as ablative wounds to give those individual units more staying power. The way i'm talking about doing it is to build it into your list by taking as many small units as possible. So that when a unit dies it has the minimum possible impact to the total points cost of your army. Both of these strategies is equally as valid as the other and comes down to personal preference.

I knew what MSU meant. However, delivering the threat costs 40 already( the rhino) to optimize its threat. Committing to another unit means that also. So only if you dont wish to take a rhino is it actually cheaper not to defend them. So youre not SAVING 40 points, you're just recommitting them in a different way. If the enemy does not or cannot kill the 8, then they are that much more dangerous... and when the enemy does fire at any of the MSU units, it loses its fangs that much more quickly. So MSU isnt a bad idea but unlike some armies, we PAY for our transposrts. An extra three bolters and grenades isnt nothing and if not killed they are another round of the same. So its just a matter of whether you want the rhino... or the unit.

The unit without the rhino is not nearly as good but... i spose youd end up spending them on ranga and the xorcist is all that hs snge so youe back to square one.

At no point did anyone say anything about not giving them a dedicated transport.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:
So, on the 26th, one of my LGS is hosting a Doubles Tournament, with different scenarios for each round. The first round will be with 500 point lists, while the second round will feature 1250 point lists per player. I already know that the round 2 game will be Eternal War/Relic + Maelstrom/Deadlock, with primary points being given for getting the Relic and secondaries for achieving Tactical Objectives.

One of my friends and I have already signed up, with his Imperial Guard and my Sororitas. My teammate is thinking of running something as follows:

Yarrick
10 Veterans- 2 plasma guns, flamer, Sgt w. power maul, Grenadiers
-Chimera
10 Veterans- 2 plasma guns, flamer, Sgt w. power maul, Grenadiers
-Chimera
10 Veterans- 2 meltaguns, flamer, Sgt w. power maul, Grenadiers
-Chimera
Manticore
Baneblade- sponson lascannons


I, meanwhile, have been trying to figure out what kind of list I'll be fielding to support this "Baneblade and Friends" list. I've come up with two of the following lists, the first of which tries to maximize mobile scoring units and firepower:

Celestine- 135
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Dominions- 4 meltaguns- 105
-Immolator- twin-linked heavy flamer- 60
6 Seraphim- 2 hand flamers, SS w. meltabombs- 125
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125

Total: 1250


List #2, on the other hand, gives me a little more in the way of durability, and an Inquisitor with servo skulls to reduce scatter on blasts/counter White Scar scouting shenanigans:


Celestine- 135
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Battle Sisters- flamer, heavy flamer, SS w. combi-flamer- 85
-Immolator w. twin-linked multi-melta & dozer blades- 65
5 Dominions- 4 meltaguns- 105
-Repressor- 75
5 Dominions- 4 meltaguns- 105
-Repressor- 75
8 Seraphim- 2 hand flamers, SS w. meltabombs- 155
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor- power armour, 3 servo-skulls- 42

Total: 1242



Any thoughts on either list (and on the Guard list too, while we're at it?) Also, any recommendations on dealing with the following:

-Flyers (especially Flyrants, ooh how I hate them)
-Psyker bombs/Librarius Conclave deathstars
-White Scars (again, how I hate them)

Criticism, feedback, and above all advice, are appreciated.

I would go with list two. The Inquisitor adds more to the army. I'd also make him Xenos and give him the good grenades.

For the guard, I'd keep Yarrick but convert two of the veterans squads into a platoon with a blob squad of 30-50 guardsmen and 5 power axes. Put Yarrick and the Inquistor in there. That lets you bubble wrap the Baneblade more effectively when needed and gives you solid backfield line.

PanzerLeader wrote:

I would go with list two. The Inquisitor adds more to the army. I'd also make him Xenos and give him the good grenades.

For the guard, I'd keep Yarrick but convert two of the veterans squads into a platoon with a blob squad of 30-50 guardsmen and 5 power axes. Put Yarrick and the Inquistor in there. That lets you bubble wrap the Baneblade more effectively when needed and gives you solid backfield line.

With a blob squad like that try to find at least 65 points for 2 priests and give one litanies. 50 man guard blob with zealot for re-roll hits on the first round, hymns for re-roll wounds and re-roll saves.

Drider wrote:
At no point did anyone say anything about not giving them a dedicated transport.

I know. I think you're missing what i am saying. No biggee.

I understood what you said, It was a reiteration of what had already been said about spending a few extra points to protect 40 points of special weapons versus using those extra few points across several units to squeeze in another unit as a platform to take more special/heavy weapons. which didn't need a reply because i feel like I'd already given my opinion in a clear and concise way.

You segued into to talking about about artificial model restraints in our hypothetical scenario, "So only if you dont wish to take a rhino" I automatically equated this to mean 'what if i don't have X rhinos, i only have X-1', which I disregarded out of hand because it's a non-issue. From there into transport costs, which for a army that's widely accepted as best when played as a Mech army, most people would automatically factor in the cost of a transport into the unit cost when building a list. Then you started getting mad about the Gladius strike force. That last line was borderline incomprehensible, but i took the gist of it to mean 'if you were buying a unit without a transport it would probably be a ranged unit, HB/Melta/MM - BSS/Rets/CS or an Exorcist as that is all the ranged synergy we have and then you're back to square one'

On a related side note. Most of the meaning in communication between people happens non-verbally via tone of voice, body language and facial clues. Only 7% of meaning is in the words that are said. Without these cues it can be very hard to convey (when speaking) and interpret (when listening) the meaning of pure text format communication. When you type a word in full upper case you may think you are putting emphasis into what you're saying but it can easily be interpreted as holding hostility.

I... never got mad about gladius strike forces. Your confusi g me with someone else. Its an observation that we cannot just buy another unit of Dominion with the savings because to do so involves also taking the rhino to optimize it, which isnt free for us. So youre not trully saving points, just reallocating them and that was the point in a nutshell.

Again, i think something has been lost in translation. Lose zero sleep over it. I know I wont. Lets move on.

 Jancoran wrote:
I knew what MSU meant. However, delivering the threat costs 40 already( the rhino) to optimize its threat. Committing to another unit means that also. So only if you dont wish to take a rhino is it actually cheaper not to defend them. So youre not SAVING 40 points, you're just recommitting them in a different way. If the enemy does not or cannot kill the 8, then they are that much more dangerous... and when the enemy does fire at any of the MSU units, it loses its fangs that much more quickly. So MSU isnt a bad idea but unlike some armies, we PAY for our transposrts. An extra three bolters and grenades isnt nothing and if not killed they are another round of the same. So its just a matter of whether you want the rhino... or the unit.

The unit without the rhino is not nearly as good but... i spose youd end up spending them on ranga and the xorcist is all that hs snge so youe back to square one.

Maybe not mad, but certainly emphatic.

No. Just making the entirely relevant point. I wont tell someone that there is only one way to skin a cat. I will try to explain my point of view with as much conviction as any other. And in this case, my army went from having ZERO armor before the new codex to containing nine in the new one. And with the change in power curve, we just dont have a lot of credible alternatives to buying TIME with Rhino shells and ablative wounds.

Thats what I have found which is why I do it. But again... There are many ways to skin a cat. Im just explaining one of them.

My local store is having a 3 game 500 point tournament coming up and I'm considering bringing the Sisters to it. What can I do to make them competitive within that limit?

Celestine - 135
BSS with Flamer x2 and Immolator (TL-MM) - 130
BSS with Flamer x2 and Immolator (TL-MM) - 130
Rets with 4 HB - 105

Assuming you need to follow FOC.

What do you think about Doms instead of Rets, and melta bombs for the BSS? In my experience, it doesn't take much to bring down an Immo and there's likely to be some sort of armor or dread where I play at.

freischutz00 wrote:
What do you think about Doms instead of Rets, and melta bombs for the BSS? In my experience, it doesn't take much to bring down an Immo and there's likely to be some sort of armor or dread where I play at.

You won't really be able to fit dominions into 500 points if you need 2 troops and pass on melta bombs, a 5 man sister squad will probably die before they get used and will still be missing most of the time anyway. Just find a way to pack in a few melta guns. Not that you actually need to worry that much about dreadnoughts anyway. Dreads suck.

If you don't need to follow FOC, it'd be a bit different.

Battleforged with 1 HQ, 2 Troop, 1 each Elite/Fast/Heavy only.

Yeah, then the list I posted will serve you well.

 Jancoran wrote:

Drider wrote:
TBH i don't see this as a reflection on dominions but more a reflection of the randomness of exorcists.

I'll buy that but it makes it no less true. The random nature of the Exorcist and the reality that it can and often is one-shot'd by the crazy number of alpha strikes people can and do bring now is highly relevant.

I rarely have this issue, but I run my sisters with inquisition. I park my Exo right beside a heavy weapons squad with Coteaz and anyone who tries to alpha strike my exo gets blown off the field.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Drider wrote:
TBH i don't see this as a reflection on dominions but more a reflection of the randomness of exorcists.

I'll buy that but it makes it no less true. The random nature of the Exorcist and the reality that it can and often is one-shot'd by the crazy number of alpha strikes people can and do bring now is highly relevant.

I rarely have this issue, but I run my sisters with inquisition. I park my Exo right beside a heavy weapons squad with Coteaz and anyone who tries to alpha strike my exo gets blown off the field.

I dont think we're talking about just pods here. But sure, if someone attempts it ion that way, sure. But a Lascannon to the side arc will do it just as well from 48 inches out. So i dont think Coteaz is going to save you from that, nor the turn one charges. And Wulfen, while you might think 3+ invuls are no issue with two wounds, actually, as it turns out, are.when podding.

So yes. there are some things you can attempt to do about it. I'm not going tto rely on a plan for a tournament that involves hoping none of these things happen. =)