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Likewise. I'm actually considering getting some old fantasy sword-and-board paladin models and painting them up as crusaders.

LOVE Pentient Engines now. SO happy to see them in lists.,

 Jancoran wrote:
LOVE Pentient Engines now. SO happy to see them in lists.,

I think I have 9 unassembled that I need to put together one of these days.

 Melissia wrote:
Likewise. I'm actually considering getting some old fantasy sword-and-board paladin models and painting them up as crusaders.

Have you got any suggestions for Crusader models?

 dan2026 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Likewise. I'm actually considering getting some old fantasy sword-and-board paladin models and painting them up as crusaders.

Have you got any suggestions for Crusader models?

Arbites with Shield and Maul?
Bret Men at Arms? Warrior Priests?
Stormcast?

I mean pretty much anything with a sword and shield, which is like every fantasy mini ever, would work.


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Temple flameguard from WarmH.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Sure. But the reverse is true as well.

How do you figure? The smaller squads kill the bigger squads faster? I don't understand how? Extra special weapons helps some, but not so much so that it accounts for an extra 50% bodies.

Yeah, it does. Equal points:
11 Sisters + 3 Storm Bolters = 111 points, equivalent firepower of 14 boltguns
2 squads of 5 Sisters + 3 Storm Bolters = 114 points, equivalent firepower of 16 boltguns
Compared to the big squad, the two smaller squads have 91% of the survivability and 114% the firepower.

Edit: well then. It appears the original iteration of my response showed up again. Huh. Must have become lost it the pipes or something.

Well then, on Crusaders, I might try to give some guardsmen tower shields or something.

Trying to find decent female crusader models while Raging heroes drags ass on knights of the chalice (the only good infantry models they make since they 'updated' everything to have ridiculous high heels) is a giant pain. I don't convert.

I have a penitent engine, but am just nervous on the prospect of actually transporting it anywhere...any tips?

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I have a penitent engine, but am just nervous on the prospect of actually transporting it anywhere...any tips?

For that matter any tips on building them? If they're actually viable now I'll need to pick up a few at some point and I am NOT looking forward to building them.

Do you mean using the PE in game, or literally transporting them?

My wife has tried running three PE in a squad a couple times thus far in 8th, and she tells me she's accepted that one will be dead by the time they get to the fight. That said the two survivors have proceeded to earn back the entire unit's worth at the least, both times.

Transport wise, because 90% of her army is Toughest Girls in the Galaxy, and thus criminally fragile, she's magnetized all the bases (including the PE) and transports things standing upright in a metal lined box. They're literally too fragile to even survive being pulled into and out of pluck-foam. :-p HORRIBLE models.

 pretre wrote:
I wouldn't take DCA at their current cost either.


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I'm not even going to try to address that whole wall of text.

The difference with HB MSU vs HB big squads is threat overload. If everything I have puts threat down the table, it makes my opponent's choices harder.

Yes, they degrade faster, but they also do damage faster.

And the good comparison is
3x 5 Rets with 4 HB - 255
2x 10 Rets with 4 HB - 260

Also, keep in mind that 3 squads of Rets gets me a Spearhead, 2 gets me added into something else.

15 bodies vs 20 bodies. It's so much easier to lose special weapons. That's just with the cheap Heavy Bolters too as opposed to expensive weapons like Multimeltas. Then again - you would have to lose 4 heavy bolters in that example before you would even out the number of heavy bolters, so maybe it's not so bad after all. And filling out formations is nice.

I'm still not sure that it doesn't leave you far more vulnerable to losing squads and giving up VPs through a combination of losing squads faster and not having as many models to put on point. And if the sisters with Bolters get even to the 24" range, it becomes 36 HB shots and 4 bolter shots vs 24 HB shots with 12 bolter shots. Not as good as the 3 person squad but not anemic either. I think with things like Heavy Bolters that are very cheap and longer range it would be better to have smaller squads. With ones that are going to get close, the bolters are going to do more damage and can make up for more of the output.

There's a reason I'm not taking Multi-meltas in my squads.


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 Hoitash wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I have a penitent engine, but am just nervous on the prospect of actually transporting it anywhere...any tips?

For that matter any tips on building them? If they're actually viable now I'll need to pick up a few at some point and I am NOT looking forward to building them.

You're going to want to pin them. That's the easiest way to make sure they stay together.

As for transport, I would suggest a tablewar case. If you're not made of money, then I would suggest magnetizing them with strong magnets on the base and using a cookie sheet to place them on. I'm starting to hate foam and keeping my models standing helps a lot with removing damage.

I keep mine standing on a table when they're not being moved, and I line up all my tanks neatly side-by-side in a big corrugated plastic container when I need to move them. The penitent engine and custodian dreadnought go in the space between the rows of tanks.

A cheap option would be to get a Wine Box (with the bottle dividers) and cut it down to the right height (say 6 inches tall) and then place one in an individual bottle space.

Reaper have a lot of somewhat cheap minis that dont require much converting (maybe just an aquilla on a shield) to use as Crusaders. They also can be all females if you want.


Some examples:








and finally either a novitiate or ratling crusader

So with new acts of Faith... is it just me or can Retributors end up pretty much anywhere on turn 1 between the Vanguard move, an AoF move, and then their actual move?

This would give two units 24 + 2d6" if you use a rhino before they actually move. Anyone know how disembarking from a transport works now? Can you move the transport and disembark still?

Mavnas wrote:
So with new acts of Faith... is it just me or can Retributors end up pretty much anywhere on turn 1 between the Vanguard move, an AoF move, and then their actual move?

This would give two units 24 + 2d6" if you use a rhino before they actually move. Anyone know how disembarking from a transport works now? Can you move the transport and disembark still?

Dominions have vanguard, not retributors.

you can't use the original act of faith on the tanks, but you can use celestines or an imigifiers ability to activate an act of faith on the tanks.

you disembark at the start of the movement phase, before the tank goes... all within 3 inches of the tank but you can then move an act normally.


I have found that a unit of 3 penitent engines murders pretty much anything it charges. the real benefit here is the 4+ swing/pile in again where you get to trap units so they can't fall back AND pile into other units as well as swing again.

Man, you guys really are making me want to play PE.

The two penitent engines I played did not do much.

One of them got shot to death before they could get a charge off.

I then managed to charge Belakor with mine, attacked with it first because it was fragile, rolled my 4+ to attack again and then my opponent used 2 CPs to interupt my combat order and killed my penitent engine before it could do more dmg to belakor.

Voldrak wrote:
The two penitent engines I played did not do much.

One of them got shot to death before they could get a charge off.

I then managed to charge Belakor with mine, attacked with it first because it was fragile, rolled my 4+ to attack again and then my opponent used 2 CPs to interupt my combat order and killed my penitent engine before it could do more dmg to belakor.

You can't interrupt after the 4+ roll as it is part of the charging units activation, not a separate one. It's all the same unit activation.

That is arguable and is why I let him do it.


Counter-offensive says it is used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought.

Technically I had fought. I rolled a 4+ to get a second pile in.

I guess it would need clarification since the Khorne berserkers can also fight twice per fight phase, but don't indicate what happens if they charged, do they go first both times, does it happen before you can interrupt etc

I think the PE wording makes it very clear that it can't be interrupted. It tells you to roll after the first set of attacks, then immediately pile in and fight again on a 4+. All one activation and the unit isn't done fighting until it either a) swings all its attacks or b) rolls a 1-3.

PanzerLeader wrote:
I think the PE wording makes it very clear that it can't be interrupted. It tells you to roll after the first set of attacks, then immediately pile in and fight again on a 4+. All one activation and the unit isn't done fighting until it either a) swings all its attacks or b) rolls a 1-3.

Agreed. Anything which gets a second, SEPARATE pile-in and attack in the fight-phase is worded completely differently. The PE definitely gets its "Desperate for Redemption" attacks back-to-back as one extended activation.

So I got my first couple of games in using 8th edition rules. Both were small, around 500 points / 30 Power Levels. Each took a few hours, mainly because we were double-checking rules in tedious PDFs of leaked photos. Both games were No Mercy (VPs per unit plus First Blood, Warlord, and Linebreaker) on a pretty conventional 4x4 board with Dawn of War deployment.

The first game was against Orks. I brought two 5-strong BSS units loaded down with F/HF/CF with one mounted in an HB Immolator, a 10-strong HB Retributer unit, and a Canoness. My opponent had a 20-strong Boyz mob on Foot with Rokkits and a Nob, a smaller Boyz mob in a Trukk with Burnaz and a Nob, and his Warboss with Burna and Power Klaw.

I wanted to test the "everything hurts everything" notion and hadn't brought any dedicated anti-tank, so I poured everything into the Trukk. HBs are great, especially with the Canoness letting the re-roll 1s to hit. They used all of my AoFs that game. I blew up the Trukk on turn 1, and it took out both Boyz and Sisters with a roll of 6 on its Explodes result. My Sisters were devastating at both medium and short range... the -1AP on both HBs and HFs was ruinious to the Orks' 6+ saves. The Orks were similarly awesome in combat; they overkilled both units they fought by several wounds. In end I was able to get enough separation to gun down the last of his Boyz and the Immo's HBs finished the Warboss. Sister victory on Turn 2 with a tabled opponent.

The second game was against Chaos. I brought the same two 5-strong BSS units loaded down with F/HF/CF, upgraded the Immo to a Multi-Melta, kept the 10-strong HB Retributer unit, added an Inferno pistol to the Canoness (just because I had the model), and added an Imagifier. My opponent brought Berserkers with a Dark Apostle in a Rhino and a squad of Plague Marines.

I grabbed a couple of AT upgrades this time. Had I taken more time, upgrading the Canoness to include a Power Sword would have been smart. The MM on the Immo and the Inferno Pistol were intended to see if I could crack a transport any faster... the Trukk had taken all of my Turn 1 shooting last game. He rushed the Berserkers at me to make use of their rule that lets them fight twice in a turn. Despite having some AT, I couldn't crack the Rhino before it delivered its cargo. The Berserkers were brutal, but so was my Overwatch. I didn't get the separation I needed this game... he consolidated into my Retributers, denying them Overwatch and forcing them to Fall Back on my following turn. They didn't survive the second Charge, but left only a few Berserkers alive. We called that game a Chaos victory at the end of Turn 4 when I was down to a single Sister and an unharmed MM Immolator and he had the Apostle, 2 Berserkers, and 4 Plague Marines. He was up on victory points and I didn't see a path to tabling him other than several turns of tactical withdrawal and multi-melta attrition.

My takeaways seem pretty obvious, although that didn't stop me from making the errors. If you're using PLs instead of points, load everybody up with pistols and power weapons. Keep your squads far enough apart that melee-focused armies can't use their consolidate moves to deny you Overwatch and a turn of shooting. Don't forget your krak grenades in shooting, and don't forget your pistols in melee. Don't embark your Imagifiers-- you need them Turn 1. HBs are indeed awesome with the S/T mechanics, but don't discount the value of bolters and storm bolters. Flamers are excellent at forcing saves and give good movement flexibility. AoFs are a significant advantage... I'm still undecided on the value of the Imagifier, though.

Overall, this edition feels pretty good. All of my units were useful, everything did what it was supposed to do and felt fluffy doing it. The armies were well matched and put the pressure on the player's tactics. Games will be won and lost on the battlefield in this edition, not in the codex or in the army list. Character aura buffs are the central factor, much more than Command Points. Things die quickly, especially when they're not vehicles. Games will go quickly once we get this rules down... the mechanics are simple and functional. I'm pretty satisfied and have reasonably high hopes for the Sisters!

Reaper was going to be my suggestion for Crusader minis, too.

Has anyone math hammered Melee weapons for Cannoness yet? really interested to know which power weapon comes out ahead.

Quick and dirty math hammer, Power Axe seems to still be king of all situations except against T5, where sword and axe would both be wounding on 5+ . Fortunately this toughness value is reasonably uncommon.
(EDIT: Sword would also be better against T8 and above where Sword/Axe both wound on 6+)

The below chart of unsaved wounds assumes all 4 of the Canoness' attacks hit (pretty likely given WS2+ with rerolling 1s)




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Also Combi-Plasma seems like a great choice for the Canoness' ranged weapon as you can supercharge it and reroll the 1s using her ability. Not sure how to work out the overall probability for two dice (rapid fire), but it's a <3% chance to roll a one followed by another one.

Yeah I pretty much predicted the axe was gonna stay the king as well, hrm.

<insert perennial Sisters Players with for plastic kits>
5 Kits, GW... surely you can make 5 kits for us... right?
Plastic Retributors/Command Squad
Plastic Sisters/Dominion Squad
Plastic Seraphim/Repentia
Plastic Canoness/Mistress of the Repentia
Plastic Penitent Engine

anyone considering inferno pistol seraphim? I thought to keep them on the board for a first turn objective grab/ shoot assault via AOF, roasting with hand flamers, but its entirely possible to get within 6inchs with two 12 + d6 movement phases.