Black Pete racist?

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**Kovnik Obama**

Cheesecat wrote:
But couldn't you argue for the removal of the burqa and/or hijab on the idea that it's sexist as it dehumanizes women (removes their identity)?

Well, it's the subjacent point of those that aren't motivated by xenophobia. Basically, they see any restriction on the wearing of the burka or hijab as an advancement for the feminist cause. The problem there is that there is no way to properly discriminate between women who say they've chosen to wear the burka and actually did as a matter of personal faith from those that say they've chosen to wear the burka but were actually forced into it.

On the specific point of wearing the burka while working as a government employee, the rationale from the government to make it illegal is that ostentatious display of religiosity equivalates to unfairness. So they also want to restrict Catholic government employees from wearing a cross on display, or anything else clearly religious. Because it means that they could offer more to those of the same religion, or less to those of others, or would use their position to try to convert you, etc.

Obviously, this point has been destroyed by our Quebec Human Rights Charter watchdogs. Ostentatious display of religiosity is not even a sign of religiosity, nowadays.

**Ahtman**

Manchu wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
the global history of blackface
Blackface does not mean the same thing always and everywhere.

Of course, but we shouldn't confuse just wearing black make up with blackface either. It isn't racist like the KKK or BNP is racist, but it is part of a set of outdated iconography that isn't positive. I don't think it is meant to offend, but that rarely effects whether something actually is offensive, and I don't think it is really the UN's place to wag their finger at them about it either. Maybe a better way to put it is that it isn't racist, but it is problematic. It would seem some in the Netherlands already recognized this and started to try and change the background of the character (dark from soot from climbing down the chimney instead of just being a black servant) in the 50's, but haven't changed the image or symbol associate with it.

**nkelsch**

So wait... Dutch Santa is basically based off of a real-life old European saint with his real-life slave?

And the Depiction of both has gone pretty cartoony over the centuries, with the Saint becoming Santa Claus-ish and the slave becoming a clown-like sambo which people dress in black-face to represent?

Uh... it is racist. A Religious Cardinal in Red with a bunch of slaves was changed to a Fat Toyman in Red with 'otherworldy' elves for a reason.

**Frazzled**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

There's this adorable looking belgian hottie that keeps trying to tell me that gangs of muslim rapists hunt at night in Brussels. A boner is a hard thing to reconcile with horrifying racism, let me tell you that.

Unless she's accurate of course. DOn't assume not unless there is evidence otherwise.

She's making it sound as if there's a couvre-feu at dark and any white person caught outside will be beaten up if male or raped if female. She is not accurate.

Unless you live there you don't know. I've heard in some areas it is in fact bad, but I don't know. The closest I have been is Paris...

...Paris, Texas.

**SilverMK2**

nkelsch wrote:
A Religious Cardinal in Red with a bunch of slaves was changed to a Fat Toyman in Red with 'otherworldy' elves for a reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus#Origins

Further links to original characters

**Disciple of Fate**

nkelsch wrote:
So wait... Dutch Santa is basically based off of a real-life old European saint with his real-life slave?

And the Depiction of both has gone pretty cartoony over the centuries, with the Saint becoming Santa Claus-ish and the slave becoming a clown-like sambo which people dress in black-face to represent?

Uh... it is racist. A Religious Cardinal in Red with a bunch of slaves was changed to a Fat Toyman in Red with 'otherworldy' elves for a reason.

Just to make it a bit more clear, Zwarte Piet is a former slave freed by Saint Nicholas that helps him distribute gifts to children.

On the issue that the blackface might be soot, there are several origin stories, one was actually that the chimney soot made their face black. It changed to what it currently is, which not everybody agrees too, but its tradition,, again there are similar ones. What about the depiction of native-americans or the celebration of thanksgiving? Both have negative connotations, what if the UN wanted to remove those? But back on topic, would you rather have the other story that he might represent a deamon that is bound to the saint and punished in this way. That makes it way more racist than people already perceive it to be.

I can understand were you guys are coming from, but the question is if we have to cancel everything even slightly offensive just to be pc.

**Floris**

So let me get this straight:

Man who frees slaves and asks them to help him spread joy, pays them for their work, lets them join him when traveling the world and bringing joy is bad.

Man who hides elves away in the most inhospitable place on earth, forces them to make toys, doesn't allow them to join him when spreading joy is good.

Glad I understand now.

**Kovnik Obama**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
So wait... Dutch Santa is basically based off of a real-life old European saint with his real-life slave?

And the Depiction of both has gone pretty cartoony over the centuries, with the Saint becoming Santa Claus-ish and the slave becoming a clown-like sambo which people dress in black-face to represent?

Uh... it is racist. A Religious Cardinal in Red with a bunch of slaves was changed to a Fat Toyman in Red with 'otherworldy' elves for a reason.

Just to make it a bit more clear, Zwarte Piet is a former slave freed by Saint Nicholas that helps him distribute gifts to children.

Well, to be fair, it doesn't seem to be the only 'origin story' for Black Pete. In the other one, he is a Devil figure...

**The Grumpy Eldar**

Yeah that's basicly it. Now some uninformed idiot from the UN demands that it'll be banned. Because of slavery... wich has been scrapped for centuries in western countries. People seem to stay butthurt about it, but there's nobody alive whom has lived in that slavery... they still use it to whine.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Well, to be fair, it doesn't seem to be the only 'origin story' for Black Pete. In the other one, he is a Devil figure...

No no, in that version he would be a humanified Gargoyle like the ones you see on churches and on the Notre Dame not really a devil.
Well... in fact, Black Peter IS a gargoyle on the Notre Dame.

**Disciple of Fate**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Well, to be fair, it doesn't seem to be the only 'origin story' for Black Pete. In the other one, he is a Devil figure...

Yeah I mentioned that a bit further down together with the chimney sweep one. This origin story is just the one that is currently accepted. Imagine the backlash if the tradition was the same but we hung on to the deamonic origin story.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scrazza wrote:
This UN statement is b*llshit.

First off, children grow out of the idea of 'Sinterklaas' and 'Zwarte Piet'. If you take it away from them, the children will not understand and be upset. Children need these kind of imaginary good guys. They grow up with them. Heck, a lot of grown up people are upset as well, it's like taking away half of your childhood memories.
If people of black origin find it offensive, Then it's their problem. Black origin people came to live here, and have to respect our ways of life. I don't feel like we have to change our ways of life, which are ingrained in our society for hundreds of years, just so that a couple of foreigners won't get offended, who have been here for, at the most, two or three generations.
Whenever Sinterklaas comes to town, you see a lot of immigrant kids, including black immigrants, celebrating the coming of Sinterklaas, because they get presents.

I hope you don't take my opinion as racist, which was not meant as such. This is just the way I feel

To be honest, I forgot Sinterklaas was coming in a couple of weeks. It's this news that reminded me of it. And let's face it, it's been a couple of years that we have had to deal with this kind of news.

This might be the best way to describe Sinterklaas and the current view on what the UN is trying to do. I feel its a bit like the whalewars episode from South Park, where it ends on the note off 'great job son, now the Japanese are normal, like us'.

**cadbren**

Ahtman wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
the global history of blackface
Blackface does not mean the same thing always and everywhere.

Of course, but we shouldn't confuse just wearing black make up with blackface either. It isn't racist like the KKK or BNP is racist, but it is part of a set of outdated iconography that isn't positive. I don't think it is meant to offend, but that rarely effects whether something actually is offensive, and I don't think it is really the UN's place to wag their finger at them about it either. Maybe a better way to put it is that it isn't racist, but it is problematic. It would seem some in the Netherlands already recognized this and started to try and change the background of the character (dark from soot from climbing down the chimney instead of just being a black servant) in the 50's, but haven't changed the image or symbol associate with it.

Black Pete goes back before the slave trade. The current manifestation is definitely a form of blackface though and comes from the medieval/renaissance image of the moor as a black man. Likely adopted because it was a real world example of a black skinned person. My guess is that Black Pete has his origins as a black elf from Germanic paganism and is likely related to the German Krampus. There are elements of Odin that are mixed in with St. Nicolas too.
Traditional Mummers plays in Cornwall have a man dressed up as a black skinned person too, also likely of pagan origin and nothing to do with actual black people unless it's a cultural memory of black skinned pirates in some ancient time.

**Relapse**

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Now we got some total from the UN trying to ban it. It's a traditional festivity. They should just butt out.

The idiot had an argument that this county doesn't need 2 Santa Clauses... Seriously this is the OG Santa Clause, unlike the Coca Cola one. Who was just made to gain massive profits.

Careful with that kind o talk lad, it's a politically incorrect way of saying slowed, as I understand it.

I don't know with Movies like White Chicks, Eddie Murphy in whiteface, and other comedians following suit for comic effect, I really don't think twice either way about it, no matter who is pretending to be any particular race.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p6V25aqQblM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dp6V25aqQblM

http://www.snotr.com/video/422/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteface_(performance)

Then there are always performances by black entertainers lampooning white people, etc. I think it's a non issue either way, really, and I'm with Lenny Bruce on his N word monolouge.

**Bullockist**

I'm still trying to figure out what is racist about black peter ,(apart from maybe his name

) is he a negative stereotype? Is he putting people of colour in a bad light? Unless having a depiction of black people is racist I don't see what grounds the UN has to declare black pietr racist.

The UN is weird.

**The Grumpy Eldar**

cadbren wrote:

Black Pete goes back before the slave trade. The current manifestation is definitely a form of blackface though and comes from the medieval/renaissance image of the moor as a black man. Likely adopted because it was a real world example of a black skinned person. My guess is that Black Pete has his origins as a black elf from Germanic paganism and is likely related to the German Krampus. There are elements of Odin that are mixed in with St. Nicolas too.
Traditional Mummers plays in Cornwall have a man dressed up as a black skinned person too, also likely of pagan origin and nothing to do with actual black people unless it's a cultural memory of black skinned pirates in some ancient time.

They could have been Moors, yes. But definately no elves for sure. We have a horror movie here about the Saint and his chaps. They look like burnt Moors

I might find a video.

Edit: Found it.
If you don't like gorey movies don't watch.

Spoiler:

**Corpsesarefun**

I'm both baffled and amazed by anyone that can't see how blackface is racist.

**Cheesecat**

I think the offense is due to black face stereotyping black people's physical features as well as being a cultural icon that represents a more racist era, I mean people usually don't get offended for no reason.

**Ninjacommando**

Different types of black face.

Spoiler:

Notice that the hair isn't Dirty, and that the lips are just the guys painted red

Spoiler:

Notice dirty hair, exaggerated lips, crazy looking eyes. an offensive black face

Should the UN look into Ganguro for it being racist to over tanned white folks?

Spoiler:

Now if Zwarte piet was actually played by a black man would it be okay? or would it be racist to only allow a black male to play Zwarte piet?

**Manchu**

Ahtman wrote:
Maybe a better way to put it is that it isn't racist, but it is problematic.

Agreed.

**cadbren**

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:

They could have been Moors, yes. But definately no elves for sure.

Why not? It makes more sense that a pagan tradition survived in heavily modified form than some random foreign group was used in a major folk festival.

We have a horror movie here about the Saint and his chaps. They look like burnt Moors

I have this movie on DVD. It's okay but lacks suspense. The burnt "pirates" were an interesting version of the black petes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ninjacommando wrote:
Different types of black face.

Should the UN look into Ganguro for it being racist to over tanned white folks?

Creepy.

Now if Zwarte piet was actually played by a black man would it be okay?

It shouldn't matter who plays him, either you support the character or you don't. He's a traditional part of Dutch culture. I note the UN doesn't give a fig about actual oppression in places like Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe so this attack on a centuries old tradition is ridiculous.

Now this is outragous. Specist elephants mocking pandas.

**Da Boss**

They have a similar tradition in parts of Germany where kids go around dressed as the three wise men, and one of them has his face blackened.

I'm not sure how it's perceived by the black population here.

**Soladrin**

So let me get this right, black face is automatically racist regardless of intentions?

IMO the people attributing racism to it are the problem. The whole tradition is based on the bringing of joy to children. I grew up with this stuff and can tell you for a fact that kids never even make the connection between actual black people and black pete, I had black classmates who didn't even make that connection.

The problem here is butthurt foreign people trying to force their attitudes on a tradition they know nothing about and have never experienced first hand.

**Frazzled**

Evidently Othello was racist. Shakespeare, the First Grand Dragon of the KKK!

To Europeans. In the US blackface has a long history of deep racist linkings via minstrel shows etc. Its an ingrained response here.

To Americans, not everyone wearing face paint has the same culture and traditions. Back off a little.

To Canadians. Where's the freaking Tim Hortons I ordered???

**thenoobbomb**

Soladrin wrote:
So let me get this right, black face is automatically racist regardless of intentions?

IMO the people attributing racism to it are the problem. The whole tradition is based on the bringing of joy to children. I grew up with this stuff and can tell you for a fact that kids never even make the connection between actual black people and black pete, I had black classmates who didn't even make that connection.

The problem here is butthurt foreign people trying to force their attitudes on a tradition they know nothing about and have never experienced first hand.

Exactly.
And what would we tell the kids if Zwarte Piet would be made 'illegal'?
'Yeah, sorry, but ehh... Zwarte Piet got killed by the UN.'

**Seaward**

I'm still unclear why it has to be a white guy playing a black guy.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Dutch love the UN just as much as other Europeans. Just how big an existential crisis is this causing in the souls of Netherlanders?

**thenoobbomb**

Seaward wrote:
I'm still unclear why it has to be a white guy playing a black guy.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Dutch love the UN just as much as other Europeans. Just how big an existential crisis is this causing in the souls of Netherlanders?

Talk to any random person about it and there's a chance of around 90% they'll start complaining about the UN.

And the woman in charge if the investigation has already said that she thinks it's discriminating - and she won't change her opinion on that matter. Biased investigation, yay

**Soladrin**

thenoobbomb wrote:
Seaward wrote:
I'm still unclear why it has to be a white guy playing a black guy.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Dutch love the UN just as much as other Europeans. Just how big an existential crisis is this causing in the souls of Netherlanders?

Talk to any random person about it and there's a chance of around 90% they'll start complaining about the UN.

And the woman in charge if the investigation has already said that she thinks it's discriminating - and she won't change her opinion on that matter. Biased investigation, yay

Yep, best way to start an investigation.

And as for why it has to be a white person? It doesn't, I've seen black people do it too.

One of my colleagues does a lot of theatre work, including with this tradition, she once tried to do the whole multicoloured pete thing and immediately got into fights with parents over how she was ruining childhoods. The UN can say what they want, it won't change anything.

**Steve steveson**

Frazzled wrote:
Evidently Othello was racist. Shakespeare, the First Grand Dragon of the KKK!

To Europeans. In the US blackface has a long history of deep racist linkings via minstrel shows etc. Its an ingrained response here.

To Americans, not everyone wearing face paint has the same culture and traditions. Back off a little.

To Canadians. Where's the freaking Tim Hortons I ordered???

I think most Europeans understand that blackface is offensive in the US. But it dosn't matter what is offensive in the US. It matters if it is offensive in the Netherlands or not.

A few years ago there was a big stink about black faced morris dancers in the UK. It died down after a while when people pointed out it had nothing to do with race, and infact dated back hundreds of years.

**reds8n**

Frazzled wrote:
Evidently Othello was racist. Shakespeare, the First Grand Dragon of the KKK!

.. what ?

To Europeans. In the US blackface has a long history of deep racist linkings via minstrel shows etc. Its an ingrained response here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show

**Seaward**

Soladrin wrote:
The UN can say what they want, it won't change anything.

That should probably be at the top of their Wikipedia entry.

**Frazzled**

reds8n wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Evidently Othello was racist. Shakespeare, the First Grand Dragon of the KKK!

.. what ?

Well if this is racist, then Othello is racist because of black paint Olivier. Who new Lord Olivier was so evil.*

*Note this is sarcasm. Olivier we miss you!