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 Breotan wrote:
The problem with 40k is that they keep recycling old material each time a new edition of the game is released instead of delivering new material. How many times has GW published a Space Marine codex? How many times have they published stuff dealing with the 3rd war for Armageddon? The most extensive "new" fluff comes out of Forge World with books like The Taros Campaign and Badab War. Granted 40k is finally becoming better developed over the last 10 years or so but it has a very long way to go before it approaches Star Trek, Battletech, or even Forgotten Realms in detail and scope.

I think it's a pity, really. 40k has great ideas behind it, but only a few select authors dare to explore them. Still, for every dozen bolter-and-chainsword stories which are essentially WD battle reports in book format, there are oddities like, say, Prospero Burns, where Abnett took a core idea from the background -The fact that, in the 40k universe random chance is guided by malevolent intelligences- and built a story around it. And yet it was curbstomped by fans who wanted more Wolfy McWolf and less academics subtly tainted by Chaos.

As for the studio side of things, we 40k fans are lucky there's still Forgeworld. They've been pulling the weight of expanding the 40k universe on their own for most of the last few years. However there's been signals in the right direction from GW lately. The Black Legion supplement (probably the others too, I've yet to meet someone who's bought them around here) contains little in the way of recycled fluff and heaps of new, juicy materials. Now that GW's focusing on their publishing branches, here's me hoping they'll keep producing worthy additions to the background. I mean, 40k is meant to be vague -propaganda, half-remembered stories and unreliable narrators abound-, but I too am getting slightly tired of reading about the same events over and over again.

 Breotan wrote:
The most extensive "new" fluff comes out of Forge World with books like The Taros Campaign and Badab War.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
As for the studio side of things, we 40k fans are lucky there's still Forgeworld. They've been pulling the weight of expanding the 40k universe on their own for most of the last few years.

*cough* 40K RPGs *cough* 62 indivudual products and counting *cough*

xruslanx wrote:
In that respect the Lord of the Rings wins, obviously, but it's unfair to compare that to anything.

LOTR has areas where even people well stepped in LOTR lore go "We don't know!" due to the sheer amount of gaps that exist within that universe. So there's nothing 'obvious' about it.

 Breotan wrote:
Battletech has a LOT of novels written for it. The game itself has many sourcebooks covering a span of several hundred years. All factions (major and minor) are detailed as are the major characters in both game material and novels. The technology is explained well and described in great detail in the rules and sourcebooks. And with all that, canon has always held fast versus GW where canon changes on a whim. Even as FASA advanced the story with the Clans, existing canon was not overturned to retcon the new stuff in. The books are generally better written than 40k stuff, too.

It has also supported many cross-over licenses in computer games and even a CCG.

The problem with 40k is that they keep recycling old material each time a new edition of the game is released instead of delivering new material. How many times has GW published a Space Marine codex? How many times have they published stuff dealing with the 3rd war for Armageddon? The most extensive "new" fluff comes out of Forge World with books like The Taros Campaign and Badab War. Granted 40k is finally becoming better developed over the last 10 years or so but it has a very long way to go before it approaches Star Trek, Battletech, or even Forgotten Realms in detail and scope.

This is a pretty good description. I think what makes it so emersive is the many levels on which it operates. To flesh out the various ways of gaming in the battletech universe -which range from planetwide campaign simulations, to space battles, to ground battles on several scales to individual role playing- the fiction and background it'self is pretty emersive. There are Sourcebooks that detail the battles and dispositions of forces for entire interstellar campaigns, all the way down to sourcbooks for the Mechwarrior RPG (not the clix game which is the same universe, but a different game) detailing the nitty gritty of life in that universe

Also helping this is the fact that there has never been a reboot of the game. The Technical Manuals series of books gets very minor updates every 10 years or so (updates that do NOT invalidate the earlier versions), and a new rulebook comes out about that often, but every one of the 100+ sourcebooks (with a couple exception)is still game-legal and cannon-compliant. This has allowed the universe to progress forward since it's inception. Instead of rebooting and improving the same series of codicies, the company can spend their efforts exploring a new era of the BT universe. The Game "started" in the 3020's, and has advanced to 3145, but one can still play at any era, and they have begun to mine their universes history with sourcebooks covering things that happend in the mid-third millenium.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
D&D's Forgotten Realms by far. Not even counting all the novels, just about every inch of the mainland has been mapped out and detailed over the years.

I'm not as familiar with D&D universes, though it seems that some are really well developed. How many Forgotten Realms books and sourcebooks have been produced?

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Sourcebooks
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Novels

I assume that to be a complete list.

Wow! That's pretty amazing. That's BT'sh in the sheer number of sourcebooks. Even more amazing considering it is only one of several universes that have come from D&D

The sheer level of detail is just insane. I'm still impressed by the fact that the Jade Falcon Sourcebook named every single person in the Tourman. Every single one. Every single pilot, what they piloted, and what unit they belonged to.

That's obsessive levels of detail.

Even the map of the Inner Sphere alone is super-detailed, giving you jump routes from any planet to any planet.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
As for the studio side of things, we 40k fans are lucky there's still Forgeworld. They've been pulling the weight of expanding the 40k universe on their own for most of the last few years.

*cough* 40K RPGs *cough* 62 indivudual products and counting *cough*

Ack! My bad! Not being an RPGer myself I always forget about the FFG books, and there are enough of those to fill a library.

Dragonlance / Forgotten Realms ....

now for a 'game' world i would say Everquest.

Thorn apart between WH40k and Star Wars. 40k wins as it is purely designed as a gaming universe (although it has novels and films), while Star Wars is primarily movie (and comic/novel) universe ;-)

I would mostly agree that thge BT universe was one of staggering depth when I played it during the early 90's. Those old House books were huge, and I still regret selling them off on ebay.

But having recently re-read what is arguably one of the major book trilogies within the setting, I cannot let the following quote uncontested:

 Breotan wrote:
The books are generally better written than 40k stuff, too.

I remember kind of liking it at the tender age of somewhat below 20, but reading the Warrior Trilogy now I was constantly tempted to throw it away in disgust.

Horrible, simplistic writing, laughable cardboard cut-out characters, thickly smeared-on Yellow Peril cliches on the one side (Liao), Oh-so-admirable stoic Samurai warriors on the other (most of Kurita, at least if they're good-looking), all coupled with some of the worst Mary-Sue-ing I've ever seen (mostly on the Davion side) and of course waves upon waves of Morgan Hasek-Davion's beautiful auburn hair. That series is - in my opinion of course - about on par with some of the worst BL offerings I've read.

 Bomster wrote:
Horrible, simplistic writing, laughable cardboard cut-out characters, thickly smeared-on Yellow Peril cliches on the one side (Liao), Oh-so-admirable stoic Samurai warriors on the other (most of Kurita, at least if they're good-looking), all coupled with some of the worst Mary-Sue-ing I've ever seen (mostly on the Davion side) and of course waves upon waves of Morgan Hasek-Davion's beautiful auburn hair.

I don't know those specific characters, but I totally agree.

That series is - in my opinion of course - about on par with some of the worst BL offerings I've read.

Oh, you weren't talking about Black Library? I thought you were. Your description fitted perfectly.

The lord of the rings.I can't READ the background books....to many dates....Names...

I voted for Star Trek. There are guys out there that can speak Klingon.

That's a pretty developed universe.

 fishy bob wrote:

 Bomster wrote:
Horrible, simplistic writing, laughable cardboard cut-out characters, thickly smeared-on Yellow Peril cliches on the one side (Liao), Oh-so-admirable stoic Samurai warriors on the other (most of Kurita, at least if they're good-looking), all coupled with some of the worst Mary-Sue-ing I've ever seen (mostly on the Davion side) and of course waves upon waves of Morgan Hasek-Davion's beautiful auburn hair.

I don't know those specific characters, but I totally agree.

That series is - in my opinion of course - about on par with some of the worst BL offerings I've read.

Oh, you weren't talking about Black Library? I thought you were. Your description fitted perfectly.

I understand that was meant as a glib comment, but not, I wasn't - I mostly like the BL stuff I read for what it is - entertaining stories and nice worldbuilding. That might be because I usually avoid most of the bolter-porn stuff from BL and prefer to mostly stay with the writers I know and whose work I enjoy (Abnett, Dembski-Bowden, French and Wraight spring to mind; those are authors whose stuff I'd even read if they weren't doing tie-in fiction). I know there are far worse examples of BL fiction, but I found most of the 'nonessential' stuff to be a bit samey unexciting at best, so I avoid it. None of the less exciting books were actively horrid, though (I have avoided CS Goto's stuff which seems to be despised in the community). The worst BL novel I've read is... hmmm - "Battle for the Abyss", I'd say, and I wouldn't say it was bad per se, only kind of uninvolving.

The Warrior novels kept me on a constant level of annoyance while reading them, on the other hand. I don't usually want to punch fictional characters in the face, and even less so if they're obviously meant to be the protagonists and heroes from the writer's POV - but I found Hanse Davion and his cronies to be the most unsympathetic, bigoted and sanctimonious idiots I've ever read about, and it was really grating to find them constantly portrayed in the most positive light imaginable...

 Necro wrote:
I voted for Star Trek. There are guys out there that can speak Klingon.

That's a pretty developed universe.

But at the same note, there are people out there that can speak Tolkein's Elvish, High Gothic is nothing more than a second year Latin Student trying to sound like a professional.

I voted for the Forgotten Realms simply because of the sheer number of books and the tiny details that Faerun has been given. I'm sure that BT beats it out in the long run though.

It does astound me that there are 39 people (at the time of writing this) that feel 40k has the most developed universe. . There is so much more they could do to expand upon the universe. I mean what's the average day in the life of an Imperial Citizen? a Tau, an Eldar, etc... I mean there is 10,000 years of fluff they could expand upon, wars, treaties, births and deaths of planets, hell they could move the storyline forward! But they haven't. It is indeed a rehash of a rehash. Though FW and BL are expanding in the right places, though they need to flesh out the HH so we can move on

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Necro wrote:


It does astound me that there are 39 people (at the time of writing this) that feel 40k has the most developed universe. . There is so much more they could do to expand upon the universe. I mean what's the average day in the life of an Imperial Citizen? a Tau, an Eldar, etc... I mean there is 10,000 years of fluff they could expand upon, wars, treaties, births and deaths of planets, hell they could move the storyline forward! But they haven't. It is indeed a rehash of a rehash. Though FW and BL are expanding in the right places, though they need to flesh out the HH so we can move on

Exactly. 40k in the lead is the equivalent of seeing Nickelback winning "best band of all time". You know its up there just because people haven't been exposed to anything else. Sure, there are a ton of meaningless facts "how many troops of x type are in y unit" or battle reports, but that's just hollow fluff. It doesn't tell you what its actually like to live in the universe. Star Trek, Star Wars and Forgotten Realms are way more fleshed out in ways that matter beyond how many spikes and skulls are on a particular tank...

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

Exactly. 40k in the lead is the equivalent of seeing Nickelback winning "best band of all time". You know its up there just because people haven't been exposed to anything else. Sure, there are a ton of meaningless facts "how many troops of x type are in y unit" or battle reports, but that's just hollow fluff. It doesn't tell you what its actually like to live in the universe. Star Trek, Star Wars and Forgotten Realms are way more fleshed out in ways that matter beyond how many spikes and skulls are on a particular tank...

The problem with that is, that as I said in my post, I feel that Star Trek and Star Wars are NOT gaming universes, they are sci-fi universes with a gaming element. I would agree with you on the Forgotten Realms, especially as a subset of DnD.

Definitely one of the Dungeons and Dragons universes most probably Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance. I have an official canon produced cookbook ( among other things ) for Dragonlance!

Possibly Battletech but I'm not that knowledgeable about it apart from playing the RPG a bit.

I do not consider either Star Trek or Star Wars to be gaming universes, but rather scifi universes that happen to have games set in them.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:40k has great ideas behind it, but only a few select authors dare to explore them.

More 40k has a very rich background, but GW only pays people to write bolter porn.

 Ailaros wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:40k has great ideas behind it, but only a few select authors dare to explore them.

More 40k has a very rich background, but GW only pays people to write bolter porn.

Bolter Porn aside, the reason why 40k is lacking is because they don't expand upon those tiny details that don't pertain to "THERE IS ONLY WAR". If it doesn't have to do with battles, GW doesn't care. Which is what makes books like Prospero Burns, Know No Fear, Unremembered Empire, Pariah, the Path of the Eldar series, and a few others such gems of the Black Library label is because they give details into the everyday lives of the inhabitants of the galaxy and tie that into the idea that there is only War.

Honestly despite all of its faults probably still 40k. It's a massive universe that has countless characters and events.

I don't really include stuff like Star Wars or LOTR because they fall back on professionally hollywood written universes.

 Harriticus wrote:
Honestly despite all of its faults probably still 40k. It's a massive universe that has countless characters and events.

I don't really include stuff like Star Wars or LOTR because they fall back on professionally hollywood written universes.

Errrr...LOTR wasn't written by anybody in Hollywood...

Warcraft has a pretty neat backstory which is added to with books and the MMO narrative stuff. It is pretty extensive. Not quite the 'gaming' universe being discussed but still pretty neat.

It's got to be Forgotten Realms or Battleteach. The former I think has more "mundane" information about econmy, geography, and non-miltary characters. The latter of course has staggering detail in the military formations and wargear used.

The real interesting case, because they are only tangentially a gaming universe, would be either the DC or Marvel universes...

 Ailaros wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:40k has great ideas behind it, but only a few select authors dare to explore them.

More 40k has a very rich background, but GW only pays people to write bolter porn.

Inquisitor disagrees with you.

 Harriticus wrote:
Honestly despite all of its faults probably still 40k. It's a massive universe that has countless characters and events.

Just being massive and having a bunch of characters inhabiting the setting doesn't mean it's developed. We always hear about the same things: Deathworlds, worlds embroiled in wars, massive invasions. We never hear about the mundane and the minutiae of everyday life for the average person on a world not touched by some sort of battlefront. We don't know what individual planets export or import unless it's weapons, vehicles, or other material important to war. What do those societies wear, enjoy, play etc.?

Now the RPGs are delving a little into it, but they still don't touch on the amount and kinds of stuff that Battletech and various D&D settings do.

xruslanx wrote:
Inquisitor disagrees with you.

You mean the specialist game?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Inquisitor disagrees with you.

You mean the specialist game?

I believe he's talking about the 'novels' written for the game's release (I.e. the Eisenhorn Trilogy). But honestly that doesn't give us much in the way of developed world. We learn a little bit about the Helican Sector, but that's a few worlds/systems in the Imperium of Man.

it's probably the most fleshed out fluff that's actually set in a normal imperium environment. You get a decent understanding of day-to-day life across a number of worlds, particularly hive worlds. I'm including ravenor in that too though.

Battletech, I know how (in game) companies test the new mech and weapons, hell I played a campaign based on it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Honestly despite all of its faults probably still 40k. It's a massive universe that has countless characters and events.

Just being massive and having a bunch of characters inhabiting the setting doesn't mean it's developed. We always hear about the same things: Deathworlds, worlds embroiled in wars, massive invasions. We never hear about the mundane and the minutiae of everyday life for the average person on a world not touched by some sort of battlefront. We don't know what individual planets export or import unless it's weapons, vehicles, or other material important to war. What do those societies wear, enjoy, play etc.?

Now the RPGs are delving a little into it, but they still don't touch on the amount and kinds of stuff that Battletech and various D&D settings do.

The really sad part of 40K we know more about how Orks live then Humans live.

This is an interesting question.

Battletech and 40k are in the lead because of the breadth of material, but I don't think they're as deep as many other settings.Sure, there's a hundred thousand worlds developed between them with rough details on their defensive forces, a couple features of interest, and maybe some basic cultural and political information. There's a lot of information, but it has no real connection to anything else. Traveller material turns this up to 11 (or should that be B, if they still use the weird sorta-kinda-hex notation), with the planet profiles that can be expressed as a string of characters. You can literally describe a solar system in a couple column inches, but it might not be an interesting system, just a bunch of notes that the 3rd planet from the sun is earth-like with massive high-tech continent spanning cities and the 4th planet is a barren wasteland home to a techno-theocracy

On the other hand, there's a few RPG/wargame settings where I feel the original developers could reasonably answer questions surprisingly deeply about the setting. Ed Greenwood is the original creator of the Forgotten Realms, and spent so much time in the main parts of the setting that he could probably fill in any minor detail with barely a thought. The d20 iron Kingdoms RPG felt similar to me, as have a few other settings over the years. Battletech and 40k aren't as deep to me because they are so much less focused. Both are infamous for very cinematic conflicts where single-biome planets are fought over by handfuls of troops. They have other, more detaile, worls of course, but a lot of the setting seems to be relatively shallow write-ups of various battlegrounds.

 Balance wrote:
Battletech and 40k are in the lead because of the breadth of material, but I don't think they're as deep as many other settings.

I think they're very different.

40k isn’t well developed in the sense that it’s a canvass. It’s a setting in which you creation stories (“forge a narrative”, if you will ). As really nothing is described in any real detail you can make up whatever you want and insert as much detail into it as you please. Giving people an entire galaxy and thousands of years of history means you can do just about anything.

BattleTech is very different. It’s ultra-detailed, obsessively so. Unlike 40K, virtually everything is defined. You can’t just invent a world and invent units to fight over it because every unit in every House army is detailed, right down to their commanding officers, mottos, insignia and every other tiny detail. All the components of their ‘Mechs have details, who made them, what worlds they’re made on, who the CEO of the company that made them is, and so on. Plus unlike the “LOL whatever!” timelines that have been appearing in 40K Codices for a little while – timelines that with a few exceptions can be filled with whatever the writer fancies at the time – Btech’s timelines are extensive and detailed and fact-checked out the wazoo. And that’s before we even get to the maps… my God the maps!

The stark differences between the two – the former a framework for whatever you want, the latter an ultra-defined ultra-detailed completely codified universe – is the reason I like them so much.