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So I'm in the process of writing a chaos list, and people keep banging on about hell drakes. Are the you really that good? Are fliers in general good? In my experience they're very unreliable! Never guaranteed when they come in to play, armour is weak normally too. So, I'm concerned about ploughing 320 points into two turkeys that might not come in, and then might get shot down really easily....

Well the thing is they don't get shot down "really easily". AV12 and 5+ invulnerable save means they can withstand quite a beating. And even if they go down, they will basically have already deleted a couple MEQ squads with their flamers and possibly taken out some armor as well with their vector strikes on the turn they came in.

Just don't expose your rear armor to the enemy and you're going to own the board.

Weazel wrote:
Well the thing is they don't get shot down "really easily". AV12 and 5+ invulnerable save means they can withstand quite a beating. And even if they go down, they will basically have already deleted a couple MEQ squads with their flamers and possibly taken out some armor as well with their vector strikes on the turn they came in.

Just don't expose your rear armor to the enemy and you're going to own the board.

This is exactly my experience. They are really fast with their bale flamer.

What makes them good is their ability to influence any one target of your choosing. So you can toast those backfield scoring units. You can toast that unit of long fangs giving you trouble.

They are less effective now with Tau and Eldar than they used to be. Wave serpent spam does not care about helldrakes. When you encounter the Tau riptide with interceptor and tank hunter you will become a sad panda.

However, helldrakes are still the best overall unit in the CSM codex -- followed very closely by Abbadon. Abbadon would hold that mantle, but hes often hard to fit in a list as your already taking a lord to unlock cults as troops.

Or using a juggerlord to go with spawn who is a quite a bit better beatstick than Abaddon due to speed.

Abaddon requires terminators to DS with him or a cripplingly bad CSM land raider.

I've had fun just walking Abby up the board with 10 slaanesh terminators with FNP. At times, I've ended up with just Abby when they get to the other side of the board, but then he wrecks things anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So I'm in the process of writing a chaos list, and people keep banging on about hell drakes. Are the you really that good? Are fliers in general good? In my experience they're very unreliable! Never guaranteed when they come in to play, armour is weak normally too. So, I'm concerned about ploughing 320 points into two turkeys that might not come in, and then might get shot down really easily....

The Heldrake is great even when it doesn't turn up till turn 4.

If your opponant knows its coming in and has transports, all the troops tend to stay in the transports to make sure they survive when the Heldrake does turn up. This stops them shooting for most of the game so your other less powerful units can try to acheive what you'd like them to.

I'm using a Heldrake and Abby with 10 termies in my 2k list - the Heldrake keeps people defensive so I can then wander round beating stuff up with the termies...well, mainly Abbaddon

The Heldrake is a great unit for a couple of reasons:
- One of the few AV12 flyers
- One of the few (or only?) flyers that has a 5+ save standard.
- Either weapon you take is turrent mounted and thus 360º firing arc.
- Daemonforge special rule allows you to reroll to wound (albeit with a chance of taking a hull point)
- Baleflamer is an AP3 torrent flamer - meaning it ignores cover and decimates MEQ and GEQ.
- Can Vector Strike when it moves.
- Can Hover - rarely used but useful when your willing to have better mobility to kill something at the expense of becoming vulnerable.


About the only disadvantage of a Heldrake is that it's a fast attack which has a LOT of great options so you have to pick and choose your poisons here. For example, bikes, spawn, and warp talons all provide great options for assaulting units and can deny objectives while your troops might be too slow to do that normally.

Personally - I wouldn't run 3 heldrakes. Yes it's powerful and amazing but too many games are objective based and losing the ability to deny objectives in hopes to fully destroy the unit is a big gamble.

Agreed. Ive found 2 helldrakes to be the magic number.

I have issues running Warp Talons personally...

For a squad of 5 Talons, 160 points, where I can take 1 Flyer with a Torrent Flamer at AP3 giving me general immunity to small arms fire and anything not Str6 or higher for 15 points more.. I just cannot justify the cost =/

Spawn, my god, are amazing... I have half a mind each list I play to just run 15 of these evil-evil things.. haha Throw in a Nurgle Biker Lord, or Nurgle Biker Sorcerer... Man oh man..

2 Is definitely the magic number at 1500 - 2000 though. Once you start running double FoC 2k + 3 becomes more hilarious, if not cruel.. But in 1 game I did take 3 drakes at 1k with Typhus and Zombie Cultists for giggles.. hilariously we rolled for Fast Attack Scoring and after I nuked most of the board, camped my drakes in hover on the objectives XD

>Hell turkeys - really that good?
This guy...

 g0atsticks wrote:
>Hell turkeys - really that good?
This guy...

Paul Allen: Why are there copies of the Style section all over the place, d-do you have a dog? A little chow or something?
Bateman: No, Allen.
Paul Allen: Is that a rain coat?

Against bad 40k players, they win games for you.

Against good ones, nothing changes.

 juraigamer wrote:
Against bad 40k players, they win games for you.

Against good ones, nothing changes.

>ADL user

 juraigamer wrote:
Against bad 40k players, they win games for you.

Against good ones, nothing changes.

Sounds like the conceit of a Tau player on firing lines. :O

So, here are some great reasons, most of which have been highlighted already, as to why you want at LEAST 1 Turkey dancing with Vendettas.

As a Flyer, you're only getting hit on 6's unless Interceptor and the sort.
Heldrake is a Daemon, so not only is it getting Daemonforge and the 5++, but if you're feeling funny enough to let someone try and assault your Drake (say in hover mode?) then you're also causing Fear. +__+
Armor 12 flyer is pretty handy, although I'm still peaved at AV13/14 fliers (like the damn Vendetta)
360 pivot weap is the dogs ballocks when dealing with fliers. Can you say "No where to hide?"
So the Baleflamer is an obvious go to weapon, and one that relegates a great deal of Heldrakes to anti-infantry rolls, however the Hades Autocannon is what you wanna bring if you wanna shoot down other fliers, since fliers aren't snap shotting each other. Essentially, Hades Autocannon is you're anti-vehicle shoota. If you're rolling three birds, two Baleflamers and a Hades is the way to go, in my book.

Here is the kicker though that I know has been left out: Worried about losing your weapons? Heldrakes don't have that problem. Knock off the Baleflamer? Vector Strike is still there and untouchable. +__+

Unfortunately though, Vector Strike is no replacement for Hades Autocannon, or to be specific, a Land Raider eater. That, unfortunately, is where the Heldrake fails. Even with Hades, you're glancing AV14 on 6's and that's just painfully wasteful.

So, Heldrake? YES.

Heldrakes also have it will not die, so can regain lost hull points.

aeglos wrote:
Heldrakes also have it will not die, so can regain lost hull points.

^This too. I knew I had left something off.

Heldrakes are auto-include for their ridiculous power against power armour armies.

All the marines, enemy chaos in PA, and sisters all die horribly deaths to cover ignoring flame. Taking one with a hades is criminal as that role is far better filled without using one of the HIGHLY compettitive chaos FA slots.

She's not as good as the internet says she is, though, and will evaporate against tau and do nothing/never make her points back against many other armies.

Still, 1600 points built knowing they already pretty much won against any PA armies is rather easier than 2K when you have to consider them, like the rest of us peons.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Armor 12 flyer is pretty handy, although I'm still peaved at AV13/14 fliers (like the damn Vendetta)

They're 12/12/10 right? Don't think there's any AV13/14 flyers? Not even the FW uber Tau thing is iirc.

 Yonan wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Armor 12 flyer is pretty handy, although I'm still peaved at AV13/14 fliers (like the damn Vendetta)

They're 12/12/10 right? Don't think there's any AV13/14 flyers? Not even the FW uber Tau thing is iirc.

Yeah..... I dont know what he is talking about.

Something that came up recently. Can the Grimoire from codex daemons really be used on a allied helldrake to give it a 3++?

 Billagio wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Armor 12 flyer is pretty handy, although I'm still peaved at AV13/14 fliers (like the damn Vendetta)

They're 12/12/10 right? Don't think there's any AV13/14 flyers? Not even the FW uber Tau thing is iirc.

Yeah..... I dont know what he is talking about.

Caestus assault ram has AV 13 Front in addition to a 5++ for shots that hit the front facing.

zteknon wrote:
Something that came up recently. Can the Grimoire from codex daemons really be used on a allied helldrake to give it a 3++?

Yes

I just want to be able to spend 170 points as an upgrade to Abbadon so he can ride a helldrake as a mount.

 labmouse42 wrote:

zteknon wrote:
Something that came up recently. Can the Grimoire from codex daemons really be used on a allied helldrake to give it a 3++?

Yes

I just want to be able to spend 170 points as an upgrade to Abbadon so he can ride a helldrake as a mount.

This. So much winning from this. Hell, we don't even have to call Heldrake a mount anymore at that point. He can just be a chariot and take what all comes with that.

And maybe I'm mistaken, though I'm pretty sure the Tau super-heavy/flier/transport/all day spa is 14 all the way around. And unless I been lied to again by keds at the GW I play from time to time, I thought SM and IG had some super-duper flier that was av 13/14 (flying land raider)? I could be wrong, as I have been known to be from time to time. And yes, the Autocannon is a gross misappropriation of resources when you consider how much ceramite will be running down the streets with gobbets of flesh stuck on, however I was talking about in the case of taking 3 Dargons or playing an apoc game and making those birds work harder in the air shooting down enemy fliers.

Not even as a great idea, but one that explains that second weapon option. Str 8, ap 4, Heavy 4 (or was it Heavy 2, Twinlinked?) It serves a purpose and isn't nearly as dumb as it would initially appear. That said, unless I'm fielding two squadrons of 3 Dargons, I'm not taking ANY Hades Autocannons. lol Or unless I know there is an enemy flier that's going to make me hate it and I want to be funny for a minute. Then that's another good time to take the cannon.

Edit: OH! Speaking of Anti-Aircraft strategy: IF (and I know few people who would need to do this) but IF you know you're about to be harassed by fliers (or FMC?) then take the Cannon and make you're birdy go sky hunting. Essentially, the idea is to keep you're bird hitting and running from as advantageous a position as possible. But first: STRAT: Flier hits the board and you're turkey comes on 2nd (ideally in this case of air superiority) then you chase that bastard down for all he's worth and stay on that six. If it's something like an IG/SM flier that can hover back, you probably don't want to engage so hard unless you're just adamant about losing your Dargon and their flier in the process. That said, here is where "hover" comes into play, especially with Daemon rule and avoiding getting blown out of the sky for taking a breather.

So what you want to do then is after you've chased a flier off the board (and if you're even luckier to roll the Scouring, that makes this strat even funnier), you go park your bird as far back in a corner behind LoS blocking terrain and wait. if there is an objective (per Scouring) then you're Drake is a scoring unit and pissing off people that don't get 18-36 in moves. XD And when those fliers come back in, switch modes, take off and get on that six and start pelting away with extruded white-hot phosphor rounds of Hate and Daemon Fire right into the tail pipes.

Essentially, what you get from a Heldrake in Air Superiority mode is one of the most agile fighters being piloted by Honeybadger.

I'll be honest, I was pretty upset CSM didn't get honeybadgers in their codex anyway...
Probably for the best... They'd be way too OP.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I'll be honest, I was pretty upset CSM didn't get honeybadgers in their codex anyway...
Probably for the best... They'd be way too OP.

My friend says that CSM is still paying for how awesome they were in 3rd or 4th, I dunno really know though.

CSM were really good last November/December when people were figuring out how good helldrakes were.

They have just been outperformed by Tau/Eldar since then.

Whats not to like about a flying torrent flame storm cannon, that can mulch basically ANY troops off an objective. (asides from 2+ troops(are there any??))

 Desubot wrote:
Whats not to like about a flying torrent flame storm cannon, that can mulch basically ANY troops off an objective. (asides from 2+ troops(are there any??))

Wolf Guard in Terminator armor as troops
Deathwing
Character in 2+ armor tanking hits.

That's about it.

A lot of love for the turkey's then. Perhaps I'll attempt to squeeze one in. I don't have space for two though!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
A lot of love for the turkey's then. Perhaps I'll attempt to squeeze one in. I don't have space for two though!

Then you make space boy, by god you make space!