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OH! That explains why the first couple of warbeasts are cheaper?

For the most part, yes. At most you are probably get a 'beast/'jack for free with your 'caster/'locks points or for cheaper.

You can sort of look at the point for warcasters as being opposite normal point systems. The less warjack/beast points they give you the more expensive the Caster is.

Most casters are 5 or 6 warjack/beast points. Which is at best going to be a light beast or a very cheap heavy(cheapest heavy in the game is 6 points, and not all factions have 6 point heavies)


You basically add up all the points you spent on Beasts or Jacks and subtract the Warcaster's point from that total. You can only spend those free points on Jacks or Beasts.

So if I have a warlock who has 6 beast points and I have 20 points of Beasts its really only 14 points of beasts. So if I'm playing a 25 point game I still have 11 points to spend.

How many points is a good starting point? After looking over the forwardkommander site, doesn't look like I will be able to fit as many cool warbeasts/jacks as I thought I would...

I would say get yourself a Battle Box first, learn they playstyle of the army and the game while getting up to 15 pts. Most Battle Boxes are about 11 points so you have 4 points to spare if you keep all your jacks and that.

Which battle box is the easiest to understand and play with? Not necessarily the best to win but the one that lets you understand the game the easiest?

Or are they all largely equal in that regard.

 carlos13th wrote:
Which battle box is the easiest to understand and play with? Not necessarily the best to win but the one that lets you understand the game the easiest?

Or are they all largely equal in that regard.

That depends, are you going towards Hordes or Warmachine, and which faction are you leaning towards?

For the most part, it is easy to pick up the rules for all the factions, but the Battle boxes are kind of imbalanced beginning out.

 carlos13th wrote:
Which battle box is the easiest to understand and play with? Not necessarily the best to win but the one that lets you understand the game the easiest?

Or are they all largely equal in that regard.

Typically speaking, the battleboxes are a good starting point and are generally balanced against each other when playing against other relatively new opponents. At higher levels of play some boxes include fewer 'core' pieces than others, but at a new player level it isn't really worth mentioning. This again relates to the fact that while the battle boxes aren't perfectly balanced, the factions are, and a lot of players end up in a faction they dislike because they hear "Faction X's battlebox is OP" or "you will never use any pieces from battlebox Y once you start really playing".

As for the learn to play aspect, the battleboxes are typically a great place to get an insight into the game and each faction's mechanics, no matter which faction you go with.

I disagree about the battle box thing. I think you are better off watching battle reports and talking with players to get an idea for while faction you might like best, then just going in at 35 points. Some battle boxes are good, and some like the Circle box are pretty iffy. While a few might be a good deal (I am not familiar with all of them), some contain stuff you won't use again, and possibly a caster you will never use, really limiting the value of the kit.
More importantly though, many armies are really awkward below 35 points, and likewise some casters are as well. Menoth without Choir is a little depressing, for instance. Strangely, the Circle battle box works alright at 15 points, but no one wants two argus in a list, and even one is a vanishingly rare sight, so really you are paying for a Feral (which is good) and pKaya, who is ok if you like her play style.

Really, unless you can really use all the parts of a battle box, I would recommend getting the bits you want online as most people have a lot to trade. I have 5 spare argus and I think 2 spare Kaya's floating around for instance. You can save some cash that way.

Is the skorne battlebox worth while?

Well, I don't play Skorne, but I do know that Gladiator's are pretty much one of their favorite utility beasts (the animus is great for them). Morghoul is a good caster, though I don't know how great he is for a newbie since he wants to be in the thick of things killing. Two cyclops savages is probably overkill; I see one in a fair few lists, but rarely 2.

I would say that if you want to play Morghoul, who like I said likes to get up close and personal and cut stuff up, the battle box is probably a good deal. A spare cyclops isn't a hardship. Pick up some pain givers and maybe a Bronzeback and you are good to go. In fact, I would probably give this list a go:

Morghoul
-Bronzeback
-Gladiator
-Molik Kharn (he's frustratingly good)
-Cyclops Savage
Max Pain Givers
Min Nihilators

The Nihilators make a half decent screen for the beasts to move up behind, and you have Morghoul to help clear out the enemy screens before sending in your three big hitters. Probably not the optimal list, but I would personally start with something similar if I was going to give Skorne a go since all the pieces are good in a variety of lists, the only questionable one being the cyclops.

 carlos13th wrote:
Is the skorne battlebox worth while?

It is relatively worth it in my opinion, but PMorghoul takes some getting used to due to a small control area and a low amount of Fury to reave each turn, so some of your beast might frenzy more often if not careful.

Although it comes with a good selection of two beast: 2 Cyclops Savages, which are melee oriented but let you boost after you roll if you wanted to, and their animus can do that for another beast.

The Titan Gladiator is a staple beast of Skorne, as this beast can hit like a truck (and it is fun to see the opponents face when you put Rush and abuse on him, making his threat range extended to unholy levels and hitting like a truck).
After that, get Beast Handlers and Agonizers to help you with your fury management (in which the Beast Handlers can make the Gladiator hit even more like a truck and make his force to charge, make slam and trample power attacks for free or heal or take his focus off).

carlos13th wrote:Which battle box is the easiest to understand and play with? Not necessarily the best to win but the one that lets you understand the game the easiest?

Or are they all largely equal in that regard.

largely equal. the Cryx starter is arguably an outlier as its points costs are out of whack with the others, as well as having more than just the "basic" rules required. that said, Deneghra is a top tier caster, and really grows with you as your experience grows.

Wehrkind wrote:I disagree about the battle box thing. I think you are better off watching battle reports and talking with players to get an idea for while faction you might like best, then just going in at 35 points. Some battle boxes are good, and some like the Circle box are pretty iffy. While a few might be a good deal (I am not familiar with all of them), some contain stuff you won't use again, and possibly a caster you will never use, really limiting the value of the kit.
More importantly though, many armies are really awkward below 35 points, and likewise some casters are as well. Menoth without Choir is a little depressing, for instance. Strangely, the Circle battle box works alright at 15 points, but no one wants two argus in a list, and even one is a vanishingly rare sight, so really you are paying for a Feral (which is good) and pKaya, who is ok if you like her play style.

Really, unless you can really use all the parts of a battle box, I would recommend getting the bits you want online as most people have a lot to trade. I have 5 spare argus and I think 2 spare Kaya's floating around for instance. You can save some cash that way.

I disagree with this somewhat. i've seen a lot of folks jump right in at 35pts and get swamped. the general advice to start small is said for a reason. what you use to learn doesnt necessarily need to be what you take all the way through. when you learn to cycle, you use stabilisers, when you get more skilled, you take them off. the starter boxes are kind of like this. you wont take everything with you all the way to the top (but to be fair, a lot of it is worth taking!) but it is well worth cutting your teeth at the starter level and enjoying the build up to 50pts rather than just copy some guy's list and get swamped.

carlos13th wrote:Is the skorne battlebox worth while?

yup. Just like the others! gladiators are great, cyclops and the skorne startercaster are quite fun.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on whole, Deadknight, but I think there is perhaps a little too much emphasis on starter boxes. I can see rolling 2-3 games with just 15 points, but once you get the feel for the rules, you really need to throw in some infantry so you can learn to screen etc.

Granted, I really want to emphasize that I think watching other people play, whether in the store or online, is crucial. Seeing how different models and units work together is super important since order of activation and combos are so necessary. One of the reasons I don't like 15 point games is that there are not many combos to see, and there are so few models on the table that order of activation is largely irrelevant. I might just be biased from the Circle box, in which you screw around till you can charge your feral, he shreds whatever heavy your opponent has, then Kaya reels him back. What the argus do is largely irrelevant, but maybe they charge and bite at the enemy medium thing, then you pass turn and watch your opponent squish a puppy, then eat them with the feral on your turn.
However! Learning to position your models such that they do get that all important charge or counter charge is a good skill, and one a new player needs to get. I just think they can do it in 2-3 games, but hell, 15 points games go fast, so maybe 4-6.

 Wehrkind wrote:
What the argus do is largely irrelevant, but maybe they charge and bite at the enemy medium thing, then you pass turn and watch your opponent squish a puppy, then eat them with the feral on your turn.

?

I can't tell you how many times I've seen an Argus bark bringing someone to DEF 7 meaning the difference between victory and defeat in BB games.

 Wehrkind wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with you on whole, Deadknight, but I think there is perhaps a little too much emphasis on starter boxes. I can see rolling 2-3 games with just 15 points, but once you get the feel for the rules, you really need to throw in some infantry so you can learn to screen etc.
.

No "k" in deadnight. if i had a penny for everytime that happens...

2-3 games? hmm, personally i feel a dozen is better. really get stuck in to the nuts and bolts of it. But i dont necessarily disagree with you.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Granted, I really want to emphasize that I think watching other people play, whether in the store or online, is crucial. Seeing how different models and units work together is super important since order of activation and combos are so necessary. One of the reasons I don't like 15 point games is that there are not many combos to see, and there are so few models on the table that order of activation is largely irrelevant. .

Hmm. Personally, i feel watching someone else play can only get you so far. i feel you get far more out of it by playing yourself, rather than watching other folks play. seeing how other models and units work together is extremely important, however seeing a 35, or a 50pt game full flow, with no experience of the intricacies of the game (as most new players will be in this boat) and especially when its not your stuff is quite overwhelming for a lot of people. combos mean nothing when you can't take it all in. and since its not your own stuff, there is a level of disengagement present at all times. when you're personally involved, you get more out of it.

thing is, with 15pt games there are only a limited amout of combos, but that is a good thing for a beginner. its far easier to get to grips with, and considering the depth and considering the huge number of combos, and synnergies available, the last thing you want to do is overwhelm folks with too much information. start small, get to grips with things, and build up organically. We dont want to be chucking the next generation of warmachine players into shark infested waters, do we?

 Wehrkind wrote:
I might just be biased from the Circle box, in which you screw around till you can charge your feral, he shreds whatever heavy your opponent has, then Kaya reels him back. What the argus do is largely irrelevant, but maybe they charge and bite at the enemy medium thing, then you pass turn and watch your opponent squish a puppy, then eat them with the feral on your turn.
However! Learning to position your models such that they do get that all important charge or counter charge is a good skill, and one a new player needs to get. I just think they can do it in 2-3 games, but hell, 15 points games go fast, so maybe 4-6.

Personally, when it comes to the demo games i give, i think khador, cygnar and mercenaries offer a very solid and balanced game that nonetheless posesses a good deal of depth. circle is up there with cryx in that what they offer really isnt "starter" level if you ask me. you want a simple straight up brawl. they'd be better with Baldur if you ask me.

and personally, i always recommend a dozen games. get things down, then think about expanding.

 Platuan4th wrote:

I can't tell you how many times I've seen an Argus bark bringing someone to DEF 7 meaning the difference between victory and defeat in BB games.

Maybe just different experiences. While the argus spray helps, I never had much trouble with the feral just wrecking face with Mat9 Pow 16. Had I been more acquainted with how power attacks work, however, I totally would have been using the argus to slam left right and center. I didn't really learn how useful those were till I watch some battle reports though, it didn't really come up.

I think Deadnight (yay I can read accurately! ) that we might have some of the same view, just from different angles. Which makes no sense as I phrased it. But! We could probably agree that the best way to learn is to have someone walk you through a game or 10 and explain what they are doing and why. I learned a ton from battle reports with still pics and the players describing what they did each turn. (Not the Endgame Gaming type just straight video reports, like I am watching now.) If I'd had some coaching with those battle box games to suggest things like power attacks, charge lane blocking with an argus, and the like, I probably would have gotten more out of them. As it was, it was mostly a dance fight, with occasional slapping and mauling from the feral.

I think part of it too is what part you are having trouble with. Battle box games might be good if you have trouble with remember mechanics. I am personally very good at that, but often have trouble seeing how some parts can be used together, which I think is what battle reports help with. Of course, the trouble with both is that rules screw ups don't get answered. I think that is easier with uncoached newbies in low level games, though I am watchign WTC coverage, and raging at some of the slowed mistakes they make

 Wehrkind wrote:


I think Deadnight (yay I can read accurately! ) that we might have some of the same view, just from different angles. Which makes no sense as I phrased it. But! We could probably agree that the best way to learn is to have someone walk you through a game or 10 and explain what they are doing and why. I learned a ton from battle reports with still pics and the players describing what they did each turn. (Not the Endgame Gaming type just straight video reports, like I am watching now.) If I'd had some coaching with those battle box games to suggest things like power attacks, charge lane blocking with an argus, and the like, I probably would have gotten more out of them. As it was, it was mostly a dance fight, with occasional slapping and mauling from the feral.

We are pretty much in agreement here. (Quick! Take a photograph - two nerds finding common ground!) that said, explain stuff, as you say, but while your toning down the ruthlessometer against new players, I do feel its necessary to still have a go. The ultimate respect is to treat someone as an equal, and that means not holding back (even if it's not holding back at a beginner level!) it's doesn't have to be conans famous speech about having your opponent fleeing before you and hearing the lamentation of his women, but it's still important not to dismiss them as players by wearing velvet gloves and treating them line porcelain dolls. Best way of learning something g in warmachine is to be beaten over the head by it!

 Wehrkind wrote:

I think part of it too is what part you are having trouble with. Battle box games might be good if you have trouble with remember mechanics.:

It's not even about this though. In warmachine, there is a lot going on. I do a bit of boxing, and in a lot of ways it follows the same principle. Get your footwork right. Learn your basics. Get your jabs, hooks and undercuts in decent order (I still throw wild hooks :( )and get your fitness up before you even think about sparring, let alone a proper match.

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Should someone buy the books before ordering models since you can't tell how many points they are?

There's a great list building website called forward kommander. It gives the points costs so that you know how many points your list is.

Start with battlebox games. Not to win, but to learn the basics.

I tried to jump in with 25 points with infantry and everything and was lost. And I consider myself a relatively smart person who tends to pick things up quickly and have plenty of tabletop and gaming experience.

I got a battlebox and then started doing much better and then went to 15/25/35 points.

Everyone learns differently, so do what is best for you. But my experience from learning and teaching the game is go with battleboxes.

Deadnight wrote:

We are pretty much in agreement here. (Quick! Take a photograph - two nerds finding common ground!) that said, explain stuff, as you say, but while your toning down the ruthlessometer against new players, I do feel its necessary to still have a go. The ultimate respect is to treat someone as an equal, and that means not holding back (even if it's not holding back at a beginner level!) it's doesn't have to be conans famous speech about having your opponent fleeing before you and hearing the lamentation of his women, but it's still important not to dismiss them as players by wearing velvet gloves and treating them line porcelain dolls. Best way of learning something g in warmachine is to be beaten over the head by it!

WHAT?! Agreement? On the INTERNETS?!

Actually, I agree with your second point too. A serious game, with a third player saying "Ok, see what he did there? He screened his beasts so they are close, but you can't easily get to them" or "Remember, you don't have to spend all your Fury, and if you keep some you have a good defensive mechanism" would be really helpful.

 Wehrkind wrote:

I think part of it too is what part you are having trouble with. Battle box games might be good if you have trouble with remember mechanics.:

It's not even about this though. In warmachine, there is a lot going on. I do a bit of boxing, and in a lot of ways it follows the same principle. Get your footwork right. Learn your basics. Get your jabs, hooks and undercuts in decent order (I still throw wild hooks :( )and get your fitness up before you even think about sparring, let alone a proper match.

This must just come down to a learning preference. I did a lot of SCA heavy weapons fighting, and I had the opposite problem. I needed to be in a bout to really feel it and put everything together, and afterwards practicing and studying bits here and there helped. But how I practiced on the pell was never remotely close to how I could do things in a fight, until I had done it in a fight enough to translate that back to practice. To this day, I can do some pretty stuff with a greatsword on a pell, but am total gak with it in a bout

 carlos13th wrote:
Is the skorne battlebox worth while?

pMorg is worth having, even if you don't play him too much and Gladiator is brought in 90% of list

Just these 2 models will equal how much you paid for the battle box

Then you get 2 Cyclop Savage that you likely won't use but are more or less free, so why not?

You can get an app called Warroom for tablets and smartphone s and tablets. You can buy your entire faction deck more cheaply than if you get the physical cards.

privateer press are also selling rulebooks in a similar format now. Works out cheaper than buying the actual hard copies.

I think what attracts new guys like the OP an myself are the big beasts/jacks. Sadly, not all of the starter boxes come with one... but if it is done for the sake if balance, then I am all for it. I purchased some trollbloods items last night and I am really excited to start playing (and painting!).

I have only been playing a couple months, so being relatively inexperienced I wasn't going to reply...but all the armies you are interested in are armies that I have owned a small amount of and tried already (thanks to bartertown). I have owned 35 points of cygnar, skorne, menoth, and 50 points of trollbloods. I ended up keeping trollbloods and Menoth.

Before I get into specifics of each faction, here is some general advice.

Play a couple battlebox games first (borrowing people's armies) to get a feel for the game, but most importantly to compare Fury vs. Focus. This will be very important in determining whether you end up with Warmachine or Hordes. Jacks and Beasts are the appealing factor of the game for many people, so keep in mind, GENERALLY, Hordes factions run more beasts than Warmachine factions run Warjacks. Also, choose a faction that you enjoy the aesthetics of. You are going to spend a lot of time playing with them and if you choose to, even more time painting them. Getting a battlebox is a great and cheap (35 bucks on discountgamesinc) way to get into the game. Keep in mind though, (in my opinion at least) a lot of the battle boxes don't do a very good job at really representing how a faction truley plays. Now, on to specifically the factions you are contemplating.

Cygnar- This was the first faction I started with. I actually felt that their battle box is pretty good. pStryker is a great caster to start the game with, he has a nice variety of spells to use and a nice, easy to use feat. The jacks that he comes with are also pretty useful even once you expand. It is also very easy to get his battlebox up to 15 points, just add the black 13th! It makes for a very strong 15 point list. I personally didn't really like the faction as a whole though once I expanded to 35 points. I realized I didn't like many of the aesthetics of the models. Also, I like to play a combined arms game and Cygnar doesn't doesn't do IN faction melee particularly well. Luckily, they are great at running mercenaries, so if you don't mind going out of faction a bit they should work for you. Their strength lies in their gunline, so if you like shooting things up, they might be a great choice. Keep in mind, you can't go completely gunline, you need some amount of melee because eventually things will engage you...then your gunlines go squish.

Skorne- This was my next faction I chose. I skipped the battlebox because the caster in it didn't interest me (pMorghoul). With that said the Battlebox isn't a bad place to start, good pieces and a very good heavy beast with the Titan Gladiator. Speaking of heavy, Skorne has some of, if not THE, hardest hitting beasts around. The damage output potential on a Bronzeback Titan is INSANE. My 35 point list I had with Skorne was Rasheth's Chain Gang tier list. It is lots of fun but I got out of the faction when I realized I wasn't really a fan of any of the other models. With that said, they also have some great infantry, all 3 of the Cataphract units are very strong. Hard hitting, hard to remove, multi wound infantry. Xerxis runs them quite well. If you were to get the battle box adding a Paingiver Beast Handler unit would be a good next step when going up to 15 points. They are THE beast support unit for Skorne.

Trollbloods- This is where I landed next. I'm not a fan of their battle box because it comes with 3 light beasts. Also, this is faction all about support...which there is none of in the battlebox. So it feels a little weird. If you were to get it to 15 points (after purchasing the battlebox) I would add a Kreilstone bearer and the UA. That gives you one of their most important support pieces. You are going to want to get some heavy beasts though as their beasts also hit VERY hard and have some great animi. Also, their beasts have way to regenerate health, making theme more durable. Most (maybe all?) their heavy beasts also have 5 fury which is very nice, the "norm" for heavy beasts is 4 fury. All of their infantry have tough and are medium based. Keep this in mind...some of their units can get very expensive ($$ wise) because of this (looking at you Kriel Warriors). I would recommend this factions if you like to run either beasts or infantry with layered buffs, making them hit harder and harder to remove. I have decided to keep my trolls as my secondary faction. I like them a lot...they just don't seem "perfect" for me.

Menoth- This is my most recent acquisition, actually sold off most of my Skorne and Cygnar to to fund my 35 point list. This is my main faction, they really feel right when I play them. I don't know too much about them yet, but here goes. They have awesome infantry and jacks. Unlike some other warmachine factions, they can really run jack heavy (with lots of casters) if they want. They have a couple jacks (avatar and sanctifier) that have way of producing their own Focus. They have the choir to buff their jacks (battle gives +2 to damage and attack rolls, basically boosting all their rolls for free). Vassals can give a jack an extra attack and Reclaimers can convert soul tokens to focus for allocation. Basically they have LOTS of jack support. Their infantry is awesome too, Exemplar Errants, Bastions, Temple Flameguard, and Holy Zealots. They have a deep roster. Similar to trolls, they like to buff things. Also a unique thing to Menoth is fire. Fire is an AWESOME continuous effect and can really do a lot of work. Menoth has a lot of AOE's so that is a way to deal with stealth units. It is also great for clearing infantry. All these factors contribute to why I am now a huge Menoth fan. I actually skipped the Battle Box for these as well since I had a very particular list in mind already. With that said, they actually look to have a pretty good battle box. Add a choir to it and you are at 14 points, close enough for 15. Or add a min choir (bringing you to 13 points) then add one of their many great 2 point solos (a vassal maybe?).

Anyway, there is some stuff to think about. I would recommend getting the War Room app and buying the decks for the armies you are considering (they are 7 dollars each). Then you will have the stats for all the models in each army and you can really decide what looks appealing to you.

Buying the deck? You mean like a stack of cards that usually cone in the box? That would be helpful! Can that be done for any army? THAT is good advice! I'll check it out! Thanks!

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Buying the deck? You mean like a stack of cards that usually cone in the box? That would be helpful! Can that be done for any army? THAT is good advice! I'll check it out! Thanks!

Yup. Back when mark 2 hit pp released faction decks for all factions with all the releases for that faction up to that point. Bear in mind the decks won't have shy cards from faction releases in the subsequent expansions - wrath and colossals for wm, and domination and gargantuans for hordes.

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Buying the deck? You mean like a stack of cards that usually cone in the box? That would be helpful! Can that be done for any army? THAT is good advice! I'll check it out! Thanks!

The physical card decks only have the Mk I models that were converted to Mk II. The digital app has every single card for the faction and is automatically updated when a new release comes out.

 Mordekiem wrote:

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Buying the deck? You mean like a stack of cards that usually cone in the box? That would be helpful! Can that be done for any army? THAT is good advice! I'll check it out! Thanks!

The physical card decks only have the Mk I models that were converted to Mk II. The digital app has every single card for the faction and is automatically updated when a new release comes out.

Indeed, and its the same price as the physical deck.

So its a much better value. You get every card currently in the faction, and every card they'll release in the future. until MkIII is released. Assuming Mk2 cards aren't compatible.

Odd. Here in the UK the digital decks are less than half the price of their physical counterparts.