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I love kickstarter but am sick of 'Do you like KS?' and 'Shouldn't we have a separate forum for KS' threads.

I voted Yes - but I definitely did get overwhelmed with them - especially during the summer. There were so many great looking kickstarters and great deals that I had to pass on. So - too much of a good thing?

Also - anyone calling Reaper bones/bones 2 a pre order really does not understand Reaper. *maybe* those models would have come out - but only after 10-12 years. And a lot of them like some of the chronoscape guys, or huge dragons would have *never* gotten made without Kickstarter.

I'm a fan of KS, for the most part. I think it gives companies a way to mitigate risk and get new, fun products to market.

I've yet to catch any of the Pokemon Syndrome on any of them (though KD was close)

I'm burnt out on them. Too many just seem like a different form of pre-order.

I like the idea of KS - and have supported a good number of them. (8 mini related ones). Wargaming minis are rather ridiculously overpriced (even the non GW ones), and a KS is one of the very few ways to get really good value for your money. Even if you do have to pay a year in advance. So that's the good part.

But I am also getting fatigued by them. And I hate the whole "here's a bunch of exclusives you can never get again!" that a lot of Kickstarters have. But then I already feel the wargaming market as a whole is a bit abusive with the Limited Editions as a way to basically force money out of their customers.

Also - I feel like KS is going to/starting to oversaturate the market. I mean think, with the 100 new KS games launched the last year or two - what are the odds of any of them building up a big player base? It's also, I think, deluding the talent in the industry as everyone rushes to make their own game instead of collaborating with others.

I don't really like them especially now that bigger companies such as Mantic are using it to pump out game after game. Plus I don't like the sound of spending money and then waiting for weeks/months before I actually get the product.

I haven't voted because I'd pick a middle ground.

Schmapdi wrote:
But I am also getting fatigued by them. And I hate the whole "here's a bunch of exclusives you can never get again!" that a lot of Kickstarters have. But then I already feel the wargaming market as a whole is a bit abusive with the Limited Editions as a way to basically force money out of their customers.

^This, so much this, particularly cross-overs that require you to buy in at a decent wedge to get an LE of something else you're a fan of.

But yeah, I've backed 13 Kickstarters and 1 Indiegogo....

Freebooters Fate - delivered (only minor delays, good communication on timelines), very happy.

Sedition Wars - delivered, buyer's remorse, issues are well documented.

Gates of Antares - didn't fund.

Oathsworn Dwarves - delivered, very happy, best communication of all of them (and given that Mierce are very good, that's saying something).

Oathsworn Heroes - only just funded, communication still good.

Dreadball - delivered, regretting the level I went in at as a less ambitious pledge would have avoided having issues that I now need to get resolved with Mantic, very happy with the game in general though, communication is a mixed bag.

Kings of War - delivered, since I backed for an Orc army, I'm not really affected by the things that disappointed others as they were freebies on an otherwise good deal, possibly a bullet dodge (haven't inventoried yet so opinion is provisional), I do have issues though that the speed at which Mantic is throwing rules out is leading to poor rules that should have had public beta-testing, and that's definitely an issue that's made me wary (Jake at least seems to have cottoned on to this, having DB S3 teams as public betas, and also Deadzone), communication is a mixed bag.

Mars Attacks - Only backing this for the Deadzone cards (may or may not get models later) and Dreadball team, might get LE models if I can be bothered to try and understand the front page and figure out what they actually are.

Deadzone - soon to be delivered, final chance at redemption on me backing Mantic KS otherwise in future I'll be waiting for public release.

Kingdom Death - a whiles off yet, but given the scope and funding level this was expected, reasonable communication (I give Poots a bit more of a break on this front - see definition below - because I feel he has been a victim of his own success in terms of what he has to deal with now).

MYTH Mercs - reasonable communication, if I wasn't buying this because I think it will be a useful gateway game to use with non-gamers I'd probably be bored and regretting this one.

Hell Dorado Inferno - another one for the "reasonable communication but enthusiasm is waning over time" pot, but this was a small punt because I've always wanted to try it out so no buyer's remorse

Darklands First Edition - whilst I can sort of understand why people don't like KS being used as a shop/pre-order, given the timescales and comments I've made above about enthusiasm, the fact that I'm getting some models (including a "new release" - Malacant) in December is a good thing IMO. A bit of stuff to wet the appetite whilst I wait 6 months for the rest to start coming in. Regular updates of WIPs also a really big help on that front.

"Reasonable communication" for me means something like "major developments given as updates, but gap between them is longer than I consider ideal to keep my enthusiasm up over 6-12 months", even if there isn't that much to say, more frequent communication at least gives a feeling/illusion that the project is progressing.

I like it. It allows more products to see the market. There are dozens of ideas out there that could be of benefit and not all are had by small company's. I don't blame them for trying to avoid the ridiculous loan company's either. If its a good idea it has more of a shot to kick off with kickstarter then not. And at least with an established company you know they are more likely to deliver.

I'm amazed at the amount of people that assume kickstarter is used solely for games, or to even get a product. Kickstarter is much more than miniature games- expanding classrooms, funding plays, even support for animal shelters. I'm a big fan of kickstarter, and while I do have to sort through a lot of chaff, I feel that overall it's a boon to many different communities.

I love them as it gives a chance for smaller companies to bring their products to the playing field. I say even if you don't participate in a KS, you benefit from it because there's more competition... so I really don't see why anyone would dislike them since they're completely optional and not impeding on your current collecting behaviors.

I will admit though.. I agree with the OP that the wait for the product to come out from the beginning of the funding is a big turn off many times.. but that has more to do with my own impatience and excitement for the products.

I'm not really interested in KS as a whole, but I really don't like seeing threads in N&R with Kickstarter next to a large business' name. It just feels wrong... you're a successful company, you shouldn't need to raise half a million dollars just to do what you're already doing...

 MetalOxide wrote:
I don't really like them especially now that bigger companies such as Mantic are using it to pump out game after game. Plus I don't like the sound of spending money and then waiting for weeks/months before I actually get the product.

And if banks were still fulfilling a role in supporting expansion this would be a valid argument.

The economic landscape has been making it harder for smaller companies to expand, and has since the eighties.

And Mantic is a small company when compared to the cash flow that banks want to see before risking their funds.

Gamers tend to think of companies such as Mantic, Mongoose, or Reaper as being large - but really, it is a matter of being big fish in a very small pool.

West End Games used to belong to a shoe company for the love of mud!

Believe it or not, companies such as Mantic and Reaper are not the big fish in the Kickstarter pool - tech companies and software companies are looking at much bigger investments.

Yes, Reaper can get $3M from a Kickstarter - but that has much to do with the fact that they are trying to create a sustainable market. They did not pile all the money on the warehouse floor and roll on it. (Okay... maybe they did, but then they had to send it off to other places. )

Mantic is in the position that they learned what Kickstarter could do for them during their first Kickstarter.

The Kings of War Kickstarter had one stretch goal - and they publicly admitted that they did not think that they were going to rea... wait - we've already blown past it? What do we do now?!!! AAAAGGGGGHHHH!

It was the most fun that I ever had with a Kickstarter, just because they had been caught flat footed by success. (Kings of War was already replacing Warhammer Fantasy for my gaming group.)

Companies such as Stonehaven and Redbox on the other hand are tiny - and I am very, very glad that Kickstarter is picking up where the distributors and banks have fallen down.

I have to pick and choose which Kickstarters I support - but I am very glad to be able to pick and choose.

An awful lot of these products would never see the glimmer of dawn, let alone the light of day, without Kickstarter and Indiegogo.

So, not sick of them, even of the ones that I do not support.

Some companies are making games specifically targeted for the Kickstarter audience - I am pretty sure that is why Zombicide was made....

Guess what? I like Zombicide.

That it was created as Kickstarter bait does not bother me in the least.

It is still a game that I suspect would never have been made if not for Kickstarter, and I enjoy playing it.

Kickstarter is doing its job.

The Auld Grump

As a small club trying to fund new tables & terrain right now I am grateful that KS exists. The banks pulled finance for a gamew centre two days before signing and so we are doing a KS to help expand.

If you want to check it out there is a thread in News & Rumours - sorry but again, without KS (which is still no guarantee) we would struggle.

Cheers
JP

War & Peace Games Club www.wpgamesclub.net

Kickstarter is great. Banks these days don't want to know (despite hoovering up a large amount of public money because "too big to fail"), there is no investment, just a tedious, global recession with no end in sight.

Kickstarter is a necessity for small business these days, and most wargames companies fall squarely into the small business category.

Mantic are still small, they just make a lot of noise. 21 employees.

They have their own thoughts on the use of kickstarter posted up on their website: http://www.manticgames.com/kickstarter/why-kickstarter.html

I really illustrates what KS makes possible, for Mantic it's a case of releasing a really good well-supported product instead of doing it half-heartedly.

Well, Mantic makes a pretty convincing argument.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Kickstarter is great. Banks these days don't want to know (despite hoovering up a large amount of public money because "too big to fail"), there is no investment, just a tedious, global recession with no end in sight.

Kickstarter is a necessity for small business these days, and most wargames companies fall squarely into the small business category.

Mantic are still small, they just make a lot of noise. 21 employees.

They have their own thoughts on the use of kickstarter posted up on their website: http://www.manticgames.com/kickstarter/why-kickstarter.html

I really illustrates what KS makes possible, for Mantic it's a case of releasing a really good well-supported product instead of doing it half-heartedly.

Thanks for that link.

It pretty much tallies with my own thoughts on the subject, so therefor they must be right!

I actually skipped the Dreadball Kickstarter - but a bunch of people in my game group went deep on that one.

I played the game, and didn't much like it - but I was the only one that didn't. Folks really like the game! Me... I am not a huge fan of sports, so I gave it a pass. (I also got clobbered in my first game - I didn't realize what the ball coming immediately back into play would do to me.... I got one goal, but was so far out of position that my opponent got in two goals, lickety split.)

*EDIT* I should clarify - I have nothing against the rules themselves - they played very quickly, and movement was key - it reminded me a bit of Speedball 2 - Brutal Deluxe. I actually liked the rules a great deal better than Bloodbowl, for example. I just don't much like football or rugby.

The Auld Grump

I'm over them.

I'm not so much over them, but for many, I don't normally put down that much on my hobby in 3 or 4 months (sure, they have low entry levels, but the levels where you get the stuff you would be buying in for aren't so low).

Battlescapes, for example. Sure, it looks ok - but - for a 4x4 table, I'm looking at a £320 cost for a 4x4 table.

I haven't spent that much on my mandollies in the last two years combined. And that's JUST for the table.

I like KS. They are doing something that frankly is needed in today's economy. If having to see a bunch of ads for them everywhere means that projects get funded then that's a-okay.

I like them, I have backed 11 that funded, and what has arrived so far I have liked. I often only go in small, but I did go in more on a couple.

I have backed and help fun

Toys for your toys I only did £10, but it was the first one I ever backed, and I wish I had gone in for more once I received the parts, and saw how much I could use them

Meridian Miniatures Steampunk army again only £10, but had intended to up it to more but missed the deadline, again happy with what I got, even if it was just heads

Psionic Miniatures I only wanted one of the figures (wilder), so only backed for $10(+$4 p&p). last update was 16 days ago, but has a delivery of Nov.

Happy Seppuku Base Texture Stamps Due to the cost I only did the $25(+$10 p&p) as I was short of money, but wanted the special pledge sample. Last update it was due to start posting out on the 11th

Base Stampers didn't have the money, but backed for a single set of 4 graveyard stamps. Probably the quickest turn round so far, though communication was virtually nil

Studio Miniatures, Sikh wars I wanted the Sikh army, but also wanted 'Flashman' , so went for the minimum to get the free miniatures, and have British Infantry Battalion marching. Estimated delivery was Oct, but it went to 400% and is about to start shipping, and I should be getting mine in a couple of weeks.

Iron Mask Miniatures, Dwarf Musketeers Cost put me off, but I got the 4 musketeers, and they come with so many spare hands, I think I will have plenty of swords and daggers for conversions. It was slightly behind, but there were issues that were updated regularly, and extra parts included to compensate

Brothers in Iron Backed for £35, though I like the figures and vehicle, I think the moulds were reaching the end of life, there's flash all over the figures, and I will have to do plenty of cleaning, but, so far it is the only one that I'm not 100% happy with

ArcWorlde Only went for 1 warband, but have yet to decide which one, delivery is Feb, so plenty of time still to go, but updates are often, and informative, so I am happy with how this one is going

Creative Gamescapes Spaceship X Only interested in the crew, so $29(+$9 p&p), delivery Dec, but no update since Sept 25th. I am hoping that it turns up, but by the lack of anything in way of updates, not so sure, I may have got burned

Winter War I actually upped my backing on this to get some figures I wanted, but had to go Finnish. Due to me wanting a add-on, and saying I would wait, I will have to wait until around Feb, but updates are so regular that there is, at most a fortnight between them

There are a couple I am tempted by, but now being a student, have to see how the money is, but Olleys Armies and Ebor miniatures could end up with some

Being more interested in the modeling and painting side, I am not that bothered about what rules there are or if it has cards, what I want is good clean and enjoyable models, that if I do game, can be used as I want. Which means when I finally get to the club in Scunthorpe, there will be a request for anyone with late 18th century or WWII winter figures. But I will have scifi 'inquisition'/ 'Freebooters' type figures for a non GW game to rules that are GW based

What he said ^

Not a fan. I'm not the type of person who makes purchases based on only promises.

 oni wrote:
Not a fan. I'm not the type of person who makes purchases based on only promises.

I typically back a KS without having an expectation of actually getting my pledge reward. I view the reward as a 'bonus', and if I wouldn't then I don't back the project.

I backed the Run out The Guns KS project because I thought the guy's ships were awesome, but the point was to help him get a spin casting machine and start producing his own cannons. I pledged for the ships to support the company, but I would have purchased the same retail. The ships were designed already. The cannons were simply a bonus and I did not walk in with any expectation of receiving something I would be happy with when it came to those. The cannons turned out decently, but if they hadn't, no skin off my back. The pledge was little more than a retail purchase made through KS, and in this sense was unusual for me. But the owner seemed like a nice, honest guy producing a product that I felt was clever and something I wanted to see more of in the miniatures industry.

I like to put my money where it will support the type of growth I want to see in the industry. This is why I back Red Box Games every time. Did I need Helsvakt, no. Did I have a particular use for Helsvakt at the time, not really. But Red Box Games is where I think the industry should be moving, and Tre has made tough business decisions in order to operate in what I consider to be a progressive manner artistically. I want his business to succeed because I want to A) see more work from Tre and B) I want the industry to see that operating like Tre operates can be successful. That is what Kickstarter is for me: a way of supporting projects that you believe in.

Now, I find it frustrating that Tre feels some need to use Kickstarter. One of the potential drawbacks of Kickstarter is that could be changing the expectations of customers. Kickstarter projects draw a lot of attention, and encourage relatively large financial commitments from backers. They're designed to do that. The industry has discovered a formula that works. They are also potentially conditioning customers to expect a type of value that is not necessarily feasible for more "normal" operation. So what I see is the potential for a concentration of disposable income in a manner that could be somewhat unusual in the industry, and a subtle shift in value expectations. I'm not saying this is actually happening. I don't have any data to speak of, but this seems like it could be the case.

The explosion in the industry has also caused some friction when it comes to production. Manufacturing capacity has not grown as fast as the demands being placed on it, and from what I have heard, small companies are in increasing competition for the limited extant resources of mold making and casting companies. If you want to get your time with the manufacturer, you're better off if you can fund a lot of production at one time. Kickstarter projects offer that ability, and if competition is stiff, if you aren't running Kickstarter projects, you could be at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to getting your molds made or your production runs finished.

At the same time that Kickstarter is showing us how much bigger the industry could be, it is also showing us just how small it really is. The industry is in flux at the moment. GW is slipping and competitors are growing market share, diversifying, and multiplying very rapidly. A strain has been placed on the specialized means of production, both in Asia, and especially in the US. I really hope that Proxie Models gets its Chase grant, because I think we need more diversification in manufacturing in the US, specialized in the production of gaming miniatures. When this starts to settle down, I hope we are in a good place. We probably will be, but I would hate to see good companies get sucked down in the undertow.

My only real problem with Kickstarters right now is the speed good projects are showing themselves... I want to back, but my wallet keep acting bad about it...

kenofyork wrote:
It is a reverse credit card. With my credit card I can get it now and pay for it later. With kick starter I can pay now and maybe get it later.

I am not a big fan, because it has become overdone. Just how much kick starting do some of these decades old, million dollar companies need?

Lots, and I hope they keep at it. For large companies, its not enough that a product makes profit, it has to make ENOUGh profit to get the corporate suits to sign off on an idea. For example, in 3rd edition D&D, early in the line there was a chance they'd stop making Forgotten Realms regional source books, not because they'd lose money, but because they could get more return for their money elsewhere. Kickstarter lets people vote more with their wallet, rather than having to get corporate to sign off on the CHANCE for them to do so. If GW fielded a kickstarter for some of their underselling armiezs, maybe they'd get a new sculpt more than once a decade. But space marines are better sellers, so that's mostly what you get to buy. It helps small companies get the capital to enter the market, and helps provide protection for bigger companies to try something they might otherwise not in the current risk averse market.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I don't really like them especially now that bigger companies such as Mantic are using it to pump out game after game. Plus I don't like the sound of spending money and then waiting for weeks/months before I actually get the product.

So... dont back them and buy at retail?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Shrike- wrote:
I'm not really interested in KS as a whole, but I really don't like seeing threads in N&R with Kickstarter next to a large business' name. It just feels wrong... you're a successful company, you shouldn't need to raise half a million dollars just to do what you're already doing...

It can speed along development timelines and get multiple items out faster. For example, if Privateer Press had a Kickstarter to develop Minions into more fleshed out factions, I'd be so in. Getting a few units each year, split between the two pacts, is rough when they're playing catch up to everyone else already. Would any Bretonnian/Wood Elf players like to field some sculpts made since the 90's?