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EVIL INC wrote:
I don't know, shooting can have risks. In order to take a shot, you need to get out where the enemy can see you and shoot back (unless your tau of course.
Likewise, a lot of shooting entails you getting in range which leaves you open to being assaulted in return. Again, except for tau.
I'm see a pattern here. To me, it is not a matter of shooting being overpowered but a matter of tau being overpowered. Armies like guard aren't really any better off. I think that if we addressed that, it would help ease the tensions a little bit. lol, for example. 1.get rid of support fire on overwatch 2. give cover saves from marker lights 3. instead of a d6 jump after the assault phase, make it less, like a set 3 for example.

1. A single unit can still only over-watch once, and they can only supporting fire units within 6" so it is no that OP. Besides, on a 12 man fire warrior squad within 15" that only 4 hits.
2. Actually I agree fully with this one.
3. So make them worse in every way to jump-packs? BTW it's 2d6.

My main (and only) army is tau, so my opinion will be biased.

I park on my side of the board and lose most of the games, I don't to have something else that feths me over.

No. Absolutely not.

This is coming from a BAs player.

ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!!!!, absurdly long WALL OF TEXT OF DOOM posts thread unlocked!!

More seriously, i miss when in 3rd Ed my Zerkers could wipe an half army with 2 units by just sweep advance in it...

How about we let units consolidate into combat (once per turn) if they successfully wipe out an enemy unit when charging? It's kinda like overrun in Fantasy and it'd partially solve the eternal issue of CC units not wanting to win combat on the charge to avoid fire.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How about we let units consolidate into combat (once per turn) if they successfully wipe out an enemy unit when charging? It's kinda like overrun in Fantasy and it'd partially solve the eternal issue of CC units not wanting to win combat on the charge to avoid fire.

Is that once per turn per army, or once per turn per unit per army?
I'm all for the consolidation idea, if it's given some limitations.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How about we let units consolidate into combat (once per turn) if they successfully wipe out an enemy unit when charging? It's kinda like overrun in Fantasy and it'd partially solve the eternal issue of CC units not wanting to win combat on the charge to avoid fire.

That's pretty nice. I'd need to think it over but at first impression, that's a pretty neat way of resolving this.

 Selym wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How about we let units consolidate into combat (once per turn) if they successfully wipe out an enemy unit when charging? It's kinda like overrun in Fantasy and it'd partially solve the eternal issue of CC units not wanting to win combat on the charge to avoid fire.

Is that once per turn per army, or once per turn per unit per army?
I'm all for the consolidation idea, if it's given some limitations.

Once per turn per unit. If it's too powerful there's always the option of making it count as a disordered charge.

The problem with this though is that it doesn't solve the main problem of CC, which is that most CC units don't get to CC quickly enough in the first place. As I said though, it partially solves the whole overkill on the charge dilemma.

I think if they sweep, or overkill then they may attempt to do it.

If you do, you declare first eat another overwatch and then roll D6".
D6" isn't that far so it's actually not necessarily a good idea to eat a overwatch to "maybe" get into CC.
Provides the tactical decision to both sides, since it would be dangerous to bunch things up now.

 Makutsu wrote:
I think if they sweep, or overkill then they may attempt to do it.

If you do, you declare first eat another overwatch and then roll D6".
D6" isn't that far so it's actually not necessarily a good idea to eat a overwatch to "maybe" get into CC.
Provides the tactical decision to both sides, since it would be dangerous to bunch things up now.

And could see the Tau having to gamble with their overwatching

Honestly, this isn't actually going to solve the big 'issue' with combat units dying before they reach combat.
The main thing is that footslogging combat units are too exposed for too much of the game, and can only really threaten one unit or perhaps two at a time. The good combat units are fast. Deep striking, infiltrating, outflanking, cavalry, jetpacks, whatever. Things that only have to weather a single round of shooting before they are in combat.

That being said, 40k does have the ridiculous flaw that you want to cause minimal casualties on the charge and wipe the enemy on the second turn. And likewise, a shooty army wants to be wiped out first turn rather than holding on, hoping for double 6's on leadership. To me that is one of the fatal flaws of the game.

My 'solution' would be to allow consolidate in to combat- but allow overwatch (perhaps even with a +BS modifier) if they try.
I'd also allow:
a) any unit can voluntarily fail their leadership test to flee combat, also gaining +1 initiative to run away.
b) any unit can 'toy with their victims' by continuing combat (with charging bonuses( rather than removing the enemy via sweeping,

Selym, have you seen EVIL's signature? It also links to an unedited post of yours;

Selym wrote:Inquisitor Kavaroth.

Also a heretic, but oh well.

EVIL INC's signature wrote:

Selym wrote:EVIL INC you are indeed correct. I'm sorry.

I'm glad you finally realized that.

Um...

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Selym, have you seen EVIL's signature? It also links to an unedited post of yours;

Selym wrote:Inquisitor Kavaroth.

Also a heretic, but oh well.

EVIL INC's signature wrote:

Selym wrote:EVIL INC you are indeed correct. I'm sorry.

I'm glad you finally realized that.

Um...

I knew he'd fabricated it, but I didn't realize it was that fabricated!

I discovered it myself when I quoted your earlier posts for exactly the same purpose; to get the little code that makes your avatar show up in the quote box. Apparently it also links to the post being quoted, so he must have taken it from your Inquisitor Kavoroth post.

EDIT: Annnnd now he's changed it.

I love you EVIL INC! Most amusing troll I've seen in months, I had many good laughs reading through all the pages for the sole purpose of reading your insane claims.

Zewrath wrote:
I love you EVIL INC! Most amusing troll I've seen in months, I had many good laughs reading through all the pages for the sole purpose of reading your insane claims.

Ah, yes. He amuses us all

Now, back where we need to be:

The best way to abuse cover, it seems, is to be Jump INF or MC. You can move fast into cover, and then jump out from behind it.

Using this, and a little bit of hammer and anvil, you could herd your opponent into a CC trap.

I think that consolidation would be a fine thing to add. Bear in mind, even the best CC units won't last forever. Those Firewarriors are going to roll sixes sometimes, and each consolidation gets yet another Overwatch in your face (not counting Supporting Fire). With the inherent weakness of assault in this edition, a d6" consolidation into combat (even if they do manage to daisy-chain through multiple units more than once) doesn't mean they're simply going to steamroll everything.

I like the "CC trap" idea, Selym. Without consolidation, such a thing would only ever work on one unit, because the CC unit would be wiped out by the resulting retaliation of shooting focused on them.

Still. I hope for good things for CC when the new Tyranid Codex finally spores in.

EDIT: I just felt a shiver of joy as I imagined what it would be like if the Tyranid Codex created a similar dynamic as with Hordes, opening charge lanes for a stampeding Carnifex.

To be honest, I think 6th edition took a step in the right direction when they reworked the CC system and AP values on different profiles.

1. Different power weapon profiles. I love how you can tailor your CC unit/character to combat a specific target, they even made power lances for the hit & run boys to play with.

2. They made it so a unit that was MADE for CC would be far more superior than those who where not and removed flawed systems, like 2-3 Commissars chopping away powered armored dudes because he had 30+ bodies to hide behind, making his shooty tarpit unit way more effective in CC than what was intended.

3. HoW and MC. Awesome new CC rules that made fighting huge hulking beasts even more scary.

However, with shooting already being really strong in 5th edition, the equal ammounts of buffs given to an already powerfull aspect of the game simply tips the powerbar in favor of shooting. WIth all that said though, I am still mentally scared from the days of BA Turbo charged engines, assaulting me with contemptuous ease in my own deployment zone, only to proced to my next unit. There was little to no counterplay and 40K just looked like a steampunked edition of WHFB, because everyone was just riding stupid transporters with swords and shields and axes and rushed charging towards eachother, while laughing at the guy with the gun.

Zewrath wrote:
To be honest, I think 6th edition took a step in the right direction when they reworked the CC system and AP values on different profiles.

1. Different power weapon profiles. I love how you can tailor your CC unit/character to combat a specific target, they even made power lances for the hit & run boys to play with.

2. They made it so a unit that was MADE for CC would be far more superior than those who where not and removed flawed systems, like 2-3 Commissars chopping away powered armored dudes because he had 30+ bodies to hide behind, making his shooty tarpit unit way more effective in CC than what was intended.

3. HoW and MC. Awesome new CC rules that made fighting huge hulking beasts even more scary.

I agree with all of this. I remember reading the new Smash rules in particular and loving it, as well as weapons having stats (although I wish they'd given chainswords AP6 at least, or made them an upgrade since C/SMs already have combat knives). It's unfortunate how it destroyed some things, though, like Eldar Banshees hunting Terminators and the like (I really though they would have gotten AP2 swords in 6E, but no). At the same time, Terminators no longer have to fear everyone with a cheap power weapon, which is good for them. Also, the ability to choose your flavour of power weapon is lovely, just for personalisation reasons. I gave all of my Khorne Terminators power axes just because they're Khorne (and because I like power axes).

Quick reminder - do NOT post personal attacks against anyone.

If you think that someone is breaking the rules of Dakka Dakka, use the Mod Alert button to report it.

Thanks!

I don't see a problem with being able to consolidate into CC.

I do see a problem with the random charge ranges. I would like to see a minimum charge range and possibly a random additional inches on top of that further modified by dangerous or difficult terrain.

Overwatch is just fine, and I don't see a problem with removing models from the front, thus reducing charge range.

I think the SA is way overpowered, and at most a SA should not be able to inflict more wounds than the victor's total attacks as per their profile, or maybe just D6 + 1/models in the victor's unit. This would balance it out a little more so that a single model does not wipe a blob of 19 during a SA. It just doesn't make sense to me

 disdamn wrote:
I don't see a problem with being able to consolidate into CC.

I do see a problem with the random charge ranges. I would like to see a minimum charge range and possibly a random additional inches on top of that further modified by dangerous or difficult terrain.

Overwatch is just fine, and I don't see a problem with removing models from the front, thus reducing charge range.

I think the SA is way overpowered, and at most a SA should not be able to inflict more wounds than the victor's total attacks as per their profile, or maybe just D6 + 1/models in the victor's unit. This would balance it out a little more so that a single model does not wipe a blob of 19 during a SA. It just doesn't make sense to me

SA makes sense to me, but that's because the last time I used it was in 5th when I sent in a Biker Khorne Lord with Daemon Weapon. That Ork mob was supposed to be a tarpit

 Selym wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
I don't see a problem with being able to consolidate into CC.

I do see a problem with the random charge ranges. I would like to see a minimum charge range and possibly a random additional inches on top of that further modified by dangerous or difficult terrain.

Overwatch is just fine, and I don't see a problem with removing models from the front, thus reducing charge range.

I think the SA is way overpowered, and at most a SA should not be able to inflict more wounds than the victor's total attacks as per their profile, or maybe just D6 + 1/models in the victor's unit. This would balance it out a little more so that a single model does not wipe a blob of 19 during a SA. It just doesn't make sense to me

SA makes sense to me, but that's because the last time I used it was in 5th when I sent in a Biker Khorne Lord with Daemon Weapon. That Ork mob was supposed to be a tarpit

I lol'd.