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It'd probably help if some armies didn't get the shaft come their time of codex update a well.

Nothing is worse then seeing your codex end up horribly broken in so many bad ways and finding that your previous slightly effective army is now either far worse, or you gotta swap things just to become effective.

All making 40K mainstream would accomplish is to have even MORE people going online and griping about GW.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
All making 40K mainstream would accomplish is to have even MORE people going online and griping about GW.

And giving GW a reason to increase prices even more.

The only way I can think of is a good 40k movie. It would be one of the only ways. People watch the movie, at the start of the movie they have a clip about the minitures. Then people might join the hobby.

As mentioned previously, 40k cannot become significantly popular under the current GW. They are just completely lacking a long term vision - it seems as though GW's every move is focused on 5 years down the road or less:

- open some stores, close some dying stores
- increase prices, reduce sales volume/push out veteran players
- increase new recruit efforts to make up for the loss of veterans (long term customers)
- cut product lines to keep the few stars

Each of these actions is a valid strategy, the problem is GW is implementing them all at once. What you are left with is a company that sells 40k and fantasy at a high price, while leaving customers uncertain what to do once they "finish" their army (you can either by another one, or wait a few years for yours to get an update). GW isn't going to change this anytime soon because it in the short-term this is keeping them alive and profitable.

The best thing for GW and its customers would be for them to have very rough year or 2 that actually threatens the future of the business. This will require senior management to make the tough decisions and look at what their competitors are doing to remain successful. A growing trend I've noticed amongst small independent video games/miniature companies is that they are community driven - the opinions gamers/hobbyists have been noted and are incorporated when possible into the business plan.

I wish it were possible for GW to incorporate more of FW's values (they are the same company, but run quite differently) -GW need to stop being the self proclaimed manufacturer of the best model soldiers (because there are much better sculpts out there) and find a new focus.

 Blacksails wrote:
A proofread, playtested rule set.

Balanced factions, both internally and externally.

This. This alone would make 40k's popularity jump. I'd bet it would double just from the people who quit to go play other games coming back.

40K is too much effort to be mainstream. It's a hobby, not just a game. At the very least, you have to choose, and then assemble your models, which is time consuming.

Poker is easy because the barrier to entry is the price of a pack of cards. And only one player needs to have them.


The reality is, players outside of 40K know nothing of the rules, or the fluff, or the balance. So all of those factors are completely irrelevant. The game has only increased in popularity over the years, and the game has always been the same.

The reality is: models cost a lot of money, the game and figures do not come playable out of the box, and there's extra effort involved even after you buy the models. It's always, and only, ever going to appeal to people who want to play a game that's more involved. And that's not how the mainstream market operates. People want self contained, easily accessible entertainment. 40K will never be that.

 leotau1991 wrote:
So I have watched a number of games that would normally not be considered exciting to watch, flourish and grow recently. A prime example is poker. This game is rather slow and not so great to watch , and yet this game has televised competitions, and with that comes a huge mass of players and followers, not to mention money. My point is this, how do we do that with 40k? How to we make 40k more popular and accepted? To revert to the poker example, I have had many people say that a large part of what made it marketable was the fame that came from the television coverage. Just showing the game is not enough, if anyone has watched a T.V. poker game you will notice that in the corners they added the players cards, so that you, the viewer, knows what is happening. This builds an element of suspense and keeps viewers interested. In addition poker is a game that is easy to learn (not exactly a 40k thing), and cheap to play (GW take note), needing only a deck of cards. This makes that game marketable to large numbers of players. Another thing that helped poker was the free online poker, making it easy to play the game from your own living room. Long story short, is there anything that cen be done to help bring table top gaming to the public eye and acceptance, and with that the followers and the fame that go with it.

The simple answer is you are comparing a game that has been popular for over 200 years in the US, plays with simple components (chips and one or two decks of cards), has simple and straight forward rules and is played in competition for hundreds of thousands of dollars to a game that hasn't even been around for 30 years, requires tons of parts, has convoluted and difficult to follow rules, requires understanding and knowledge of a large amount of fluff to put it into context and is never going to played in competiton for hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is no comparison. There is no tension. There is nothing hidden in 40k. No way for announcers to say something like this:

Voice 1: Well Richard is just stomping all over Michael's orks in this battle. It is a real slaughter.

Voice 2: This is true, but speaking of stomping, Richard doesn't know that Michael has an ork stompa hidden in reserve just waiting to unleash some orkie goodness on Richard's space marines. So don't count Michael out yet!

Yeah even just reading the example it sounds ludicrous. Imagine it for real. I've been involved in tabletop gaming starting with counters and moving into minis for well on 36 years now and *I* would not watch that coverage for even a minute. I remember when ESPN televised Magic the Gathering tournies hoping to cash in on the popularity of the game and not only was it horribly painful to watch and listen to, they also discovered that even as new a concept as the CCG was at the time, and how popular MtG was at the time as well, it still was no where near popular enough to warrant televising the tournements and thankfully the coverage died a quick death. Imagine accouncers calling plays and actions in a Magic game as if it were a sports contest and then realize that the reality was even worse than it sounds in your head.

Even with the improvements that others in this thread suggest 40k will never be as popular and openly accepted as poker or even remotely as interesting to watch to the general public as the final rounds of a high stakes poker tournement can be.

Skriker

3) A company trying to protect the Intellectual Property (the setting) that makes this game big. GW does nothing of the sort. They do significant changes in the setting without caring at all and waste time and money in ridiculous legal battles that fill many players with shame.

They can't. The setting is (to be generous) "borrowed" from every other Sci-Fi and Fantasy setting to be published in the last century and a half. GW doesn't actually *own* the rights to half the stuff they publish, they just slap a different coat of paint on it and call it new.

Chaos? All of GW's depictions of Chaos belong to Michael Moorcock. Even the eight-pointed star symbol. All of it. Mutants, magic, monsters, Chaos Gods, "Blood for the Blood God" ("Blood and souls!"), Forces of Order vs Forces of Chaos... all of that. Owned by Michael Moorcock.

Tau? That's anime, probably specifically Robotech, though other anime lines could be said to have equal hold.

Necrons? James Cameron. Those are T800 models.

Eldar? Tolkein High Elves in Space.

The God-Emperor? Estate of Frank Herbert (God-Emperor of Dune?).

Psykers? George Lucas has a real strong claim to Psychics in Space.

Space Marines? Estate of Robert Heinlein holding on line 2.

So once they strip away all of the elements that could get production of a feature film halted with lawsuits, what you're left with is a very, very generic sci-fi setting.

 Skriker wrote:

 leotau1991 wrote:
So I have watched a number of games that would normally not be considered exciting to watch, flourish and grow recently. A prime example is poker. This game is rather slow and not so great to watch , and yet this game has televised competitions, and with that comes a huge mass of players and followers, not to mention money. My point is this, how do we do that with 40k? How to we make 40k more popular and accepted? To revert to the poker example, I have had many people say that a large part of what made it marketable was the fame that came from the television coverage. Just showing the game is not enough, if anyone has watched a T.V. poker game you will notice that in the corners they added the players cards, so that you, the viewer, knows what is happening. This builds an element of suspense and keeps viewers interested. In addition poker is a game that is easy to learn (not exactly a 40k thing), and cheap to play (GW take note), needing only a deck of cards. This makes that game marketable to large numbers of players. Another thing that helped poker was the free online poker, making it easy to play the game from your own living room. Long story short, is there anything that cen be done to help bring table top gaming to the public eye and acceptance, and with that the followers and the fame that go with it.

The simple answer is you are comparing a game that has been popular for over 200 years in the US, plays with simple components (chips and one or two decks of cards), has simple and straight forward rules and is played in competition for hundreds of thousands of dollars to a game that hasn't even been around for 30 years, requires tons of parts, has convoluted and difficult to follow rules, requires understanding and knowledge of a large amount of fluff to put it into context and is never going to played in competiton for hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is no comparison. There is no tension. There is nothing hidden in 40k. No way for announcers to say something like this:

Voice 1: Well Richard is just stomping all over Michael's orks in this battle. It is a real slaughter.

Voice 2: This is true, but speaking of stomping, Richard doesn't know that Michael has an ork stompa hidden in reserve just waiting to unleash some orkie goodness on Richard's space marines. So don't count Michael out yet!

Yeah even just reading the example it sounds ludicrous. Imagine it for real. I've been involved in tabletop gaming starting with counters and moving into minis for well on 36 years now and *I* would not watch that coverage for even a minute. I remember when ESPN televised Magic the Gathering tournies hoping to cash in on the popularity of the game and not only was it horribly painful to watch and listen to, they also discovered that even as new a concept as the CCG was at the time, and how popular MtG was at the time as well, it still was no where near popular enough to warrant televising the tournements and thankfully the coverage died a quick death. Imagine accouncers calling plays and actions in a Magic game as if it were a sports contest and then realize that the reality was even worse than it sounds in your head.

Even with the improvements that others in this thread suggest 40k will never be as popular and openly accepted as poker or even remotely as interesting to watch to the general public as the final rounds of a high stakes poker tournement can be.

Skriker

I do agree on your points here. However the same would be said of any video game, and yet games like starcraft 2 are hugely popular in other countries.

I just think it would be boring. There are few batreps I enjoy watching. For me, WH40k is a social event, where I get together with some buddies, look at some pretty models, and roll some dice while bantering a bit. It's not something i'd be interested in watching because the game simply doenst have enough strategy involved. As it stands, WH40K is mostly a fun, casual game for people with lots of time and money, and I'm fine with this.

xruslanx wrote:
...ignoring the anti-gw trolls

Declaring anyone who disagrees with you a troll? Wonderful logic right there.

But on topic, the rule set, price and availability of the game limits it to a relatively niche audience.

 Skriker wrote:

 leotau1991 wrote:
So I have watched a number of games that would normally not be considered exciting to watch, flourish and grow recently. A prime example is poker. This game is rather slow and not so great to watch , and yet this game has televised competitions, and with that comes a huge mass of players and followers, not to mention money. My point is this, how do we do that with 40k? How to we make 40k more popular and accepted? To revert to the poker example, I have had many people say that a large part of what made it marketable was the fame that came from the television coverage. Just showing the game is not enough, if anyone has watched a T.V. poker game you will notice that in the corners they added the players cards, so that you, the viewer, knows what is happening. This builds an element of suspense and keeps viewers interested. In addition poker is a game that is easy to learn (not exactly a 40k thing), and cheap to play (GW take note), needing only a deck of cards. This makes that game marketable to large numbers of players. Another thing that helped poker was the free online poker, making it easy to play the game from your own living room. Long story short, is there anything that cen be done to help bring table top gaming to the public eye and acceptance, and with that the followers and the fame that go with it.

The simple answer is you are comparing a game that has been popular for over 200 years in the US, plays with simple components (chips and one or two decks of cards), has simple and straight forward rules and is played in competition for hundreds of thousands of dollars to a game that hasn't even been around for 30 years, requires tons of parts, has convoluted and difficult to follow rules, requires understanding and knowledge of a large amount of fluff to put it into context and is never going to played in competiton for hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is no comparison. There is no tension. There is nothing hidden in 40k. No way for announcers to say something like this:

Voice 1: Well Richard is just stomping all over Michael's orks in this battle. It is a real slaughter.

Voice 2: This is true, but speaking of stomping, Richard doesn't know that Michael has an ork stompa hidden in reserve just waiting to unleash some orkie goodness on Richard's space marines. So don't count Michael out yet!

Yeah even just reading the example it sounds ludicrous. Imagine it for real. I've been involved in tabletop gaming starting with counters and moving into minis for well on 36 years now and *I* would not watch that coverage for even a minute. I remember when ESPN televised Magic the Gathering tournies hoping to cash in on the popularity of the game and not only was it horribly painful to watch and listen to, they also discovered that even as new a concept as the CCG was at the time, and how popular MtG was at the time as well, it still was no where near popular enough to warrant televising the tournements and thankfully the coverage died a quick death. Imagine accouncers calling plays and actions in a Magic game as if it were a sports contest and then realize that the reality was even worse than it sounds in your head.

Even with the improvements that others in this thread suggest 40k will never be as popular and openly accepted as poker or even remotely as interesting to watch to the general public as the final rounds of a high stakes poker tournement can be.

Skriker

You do know that MtG, SC2, LoL, Dota 2, WMH, Netrunner and several other games have live coverage of games and events with live commentary with sometimes hundreds of thousands of viewers, right?

If Games Workshop could produce a movie that could capture the 40k universe, I promise you would see a massive increase in popularity like nothing you have seen before. It would dwarf LOTR, Avatar, everything.

The fluff is there, the problem is the movie would have to be done "right". The best way they could conceivably do this is from the eyes of a imperial guardsman. People could relate to that. The movie would need to be done with live actors.

CGI in a setting set in the 40th millennium would be inevitable, but should be limited wherever possible. To often directors go way overboard on CGI & mistake "lots of explosions" for a good movie.

If they could capture "grimdark", it could change cinema forever & we would see a revival like never before.

 leotau1991 wrote:
I do agree on your points here. However the same would be said of any video game, and yet games like starcraft 2 are hugely popular in other countries.

Starcraft 2 is popular among *gamers* in many countries and doesn't require any of the baggage, expense and effort of 40k. Starcraft 2 is also not going to be having televised tournements like Poker either. Unless maybe on the G4 network and then will still not appeal to as broad an audience as a poker tourney would.

Skriker

Nah. Avatar had mostly-naked giant blue people with bodies based on supermodels. That's a huge draw of crowds (and lots of people went to see Bill Crudup's giant blue wang in Watchmen).

GW and 40K, however, have fled from anything that could really be construed as sexual over the past 20 years, so none of that is going to be in a 40K movie.

"Grimdark" has been done before, it comes and goes in certain genres of independent films, some of the best being Italian independent horror films, but that has not really caught on in any other schools of film.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Lowering the cost and simplifying the rules are pretty much the only way 40k will reach a audience of the scale you are referring to.

And then after enough people buy into 40k, there could be enough money to use the setting on a much grander scale - Movies, Games (not just the DoW line) etc.

But GW is like the Adeptus Mechanicus. It hoards old methods with utmost secrecy, and will treat anything new as utter heresy (especially if it is better than old things).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

GW and 40K, however, have fled from anything that could really be construed as sexual over the past 20 years, so none of that is going to be in a 40K movie.

Daemonettes can be considered sexual, and the DE models have half-naked female slaves...

But that's Pg-13 these days...

xruslanx wrote:
...ignoring the anti-gw trolls, i think the video games helped a lot, particularly dawn of war. I think if we got a new, good, 40k game, that would boost popularity no end.

And a high profile, well made, 40k film would be phenominally helpful. preferably inquisitor as that would have the most potential for an actual storyline rather than 'there is only war!'

Lovable Renegade Rogue Trader and his interesting crew that you just grew to love, but are about to watch die meets New Alien Threat/New Tyranid Threat/New Necron Threat/Old Ancient Threat while exploring the outer regions of space on a Death World that has been scouted for his potential use as a Imperial Guard recruitment world.

I would also love to see something in the depths of a Hive World/City that's recruiting, at TV series to explore the Underworld of the 40k universe would be amazing....

Just spitballing ideas here, but I think a movie would have to draw away from the epic scale battles so they can test the waters (market) first, then go huge if it's successful...

Maybe tying in aforementioned "New Alien Threat" to a larger scheme, i.e. Rogue Trader escapes with info, epic battle between factions ensues.

Furyou Miko wrote:Pilanius? Really?

What story is there? He was just an ordinary soldier who happened to have the big, brass ovaries to tell a giant in powered armour "You shall not pass!", then got shot for it. Not exactly Film of the Year material.

A movie that follows Pilanius as the rebellion progresses and ends with him and his big secondary sex organs standing in the way of titanic near gods could be a really good movie. The best part about it is if you got a good script writer he could have near free reign until the iconic moment which would make for a very good dramatic scene with the right actor. Out of all the GW material it has the best human element that makes a movie a classic. The rest is so over the top people cannot relate.

I would also love to see something in the depths of a Hive World/City that's recruiting, at TV series to explore the Underworld of the 40k universe would be amazing....

Yes I agree that would be great! I could see it making interest in the hobby but the prices..

A television series would be a more-attainable goal than a Hollywood blockbuster. Mainly because the compromises required to make a Hollywood film would make a 40K film not a 40K film, which would piss off the pre-existing fans.. A true 40K film will only attract people who are already aware of the hobby.

TV can be done fairly cheaply.

 Psienesis wrote:
A television series would be a more-attainable goal than a Hollywood blockbuster. Mainly because the compromises required to make a Hollywood film would make a 40K film not a 40K film, which would piss off the pre-existing fans.. A true 40K film will only attract people who are already aware of the hobby.

TV can be done fairly cheaply.

Any resourceful fellows want to put together a kickstarter?

I have no idea how they would do a Hive City tho, would have to find some pretty grungy streets...

 Deschain wrote:


I have no idea how they would do a Hive City tho, would have to find some pretty grungy streets...

Foam carved sets

Commissar Benny wrote:
If Games Workshop could produce a movie that could capture the 40k universe, I promise you would see a massive increase in popularity like nothing you have seen before. It would dwarf LOTR, Avatar, everything.

Which is, totally impossible.

A Warhammer 40k movie would be at least 7 hours long, and it's protagonist would be ether be a fanatically racist, xenophonic, ultra religious zealot bent on purging the unpure by committing genocide and mass murder (general Imperials), or we do the same except it's more elegant and lacking in the fanaticism (Eldar). That or we do daemon worshiping pillagers who rape, slaughter and set fire to everything in site, or we have a film about beings that make people's minds explode by the sheer thought of their existence. Or we do a movie about....etc....wedidn'tstartthefire.mp3.

 Deschain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
A television series would be a more-attainable goal than a Hollywood blockbuster. Mainly because the compromises required to make a Hollywood film would make a 40K film not a 40K film, which would piss off the pre-existing fans.. A true 40K film will only attract people who are already aware of the hobby.

TV can be done fairly cheaply.

Any resourceful fellows want to put together a kickstarter?

I have no idea how they would do a Hive City tho, would have to find some pretty grungy streets...

I think the IG and would set a good scene,Same with sm. The orks would be comedy..

 leotau1991 wrote:
How to we make 40k more popular and accepted?

T and A. Fill the stores with hot gamer girls.

 Imposter101 wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
If Games Workshop could produce a movie that could capture the 40k universe, I promise you would see a massive increase in popularity like nothing you have seen before. It would dwarf LOTR, Avatar, everything.

Which is, totally impossible.

A Warhammer 40k movie would be at least 7 hours long, and it's protagonist would be ether be a fanatically racist, xenophonic, ultra religious zealot bent on purging the unpure by committing genocide and mass murder (general Imperials), or we do the same except it's more elegant and lacking in the fanaticism (Eldar). That or we do daemon worshiping pillagers who rape, slaughter and set fire to everything in site, or we have a film about beings that make people's minds explode by the sheer thought of their existence. Or we do a movie about....etc....wedidn'tstartthefire.mp3.

This, annoyingly, is pretty much the case.

To get anyone to understand wtf is going on in the film, somebody would have to explain the setting. In quite some detail.

And then convince everyone that it's okay to have a character who "fanatically racist, xenophonic, ultra religious zealot bent on purging the unpure by committing genocide and mass murder", and is still to be considered the "good guy".


We could go with following an IG's struggle to survive, but he'd still be incredibly racist and xenophobic, whose answer to all problems is a detpack, a lasgun and cold steel.

 Imposter101 wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
If Games Workshop could produce a movie that could capture the 40k universe, I promise you would see a massive increase in popularity like nothing you have seen before. It would dwarf LOTR, Avatar, everything.

Which is, totally impossible.

A Warhammer 40k movie would be at least 7 hours long, and it's protagonist would be ether be a fanatically racist, xenophonic, ultra religious zealot bent on purging the unpure by committing genocide and mass murder (general Imperials), or we do the same except it's more elegant and lacking in the fanaticism (Eldar). That or we do daemon worshiping pillagers who rape, slaughter and set fire to everything in site, or we have a film about beings that make people's minds explode by the sheer thought of their existence. Or we do a movie about....etc....wedidn'tstartthefire.mp3.

What id do is make the movie based on an imperial guardsmen fighting a rebellion on another imperial world and committing untold horrors and crimes etc and at the begining he is all fine with it and things its for the best but starts to question what he is doing etc and the plot can based on that kind of moral bases. Doesnt need to be about marines or anything as in my opinion those movies would fail horribly. Keep it human based and give it depth and story (less fighting) and i would love to watch it. Or even make a big push on to the futility of what the imperium is trying to acheive etc.

I think if its a thoughtful insiting movie not a hack and slash it would be great.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
If Games Workshop could produce a movie that could capture the 40k universe, I promise you would see a massive increase in popularity like nothing you have seen before. It would dwarf LOTR, Avatar, everything.

Which is, totally impossible.

A Warhammer 40k movie would be at least 7 hours long, and it's protagonist would be ether be a fanatically racist, xenophonic, ultra religious zealot bent on purging the unpure by committing genocide and mass murder (general Imperials), or we do the same except it's more elegant and lacking in the fanaticism (Eldar). That or we do daemon worshiping pillagers who rape, slaughter and set fire to everything in site, or we have a film about beings that make people's minds explode by the sheer thought of their existence. Or we do a movie about....etc....wedidn'tstartthefire.mp3.

What id do is make the movie based on an imperial guardsmen fighting a rebellion on another imperial world and committing untold horrors and crimes etc and at the begining he is all fine with it and things its for the best but starts to question what he is doing etc and the plot can based on that kind of moral bases. Doesnt need to be about marines or anything as in my opinion those movies would fail horribly. Keep it human based and give it depth and story (less fighting) and i would love to watch it. Or even make a big push on to the futility of what the imperium is trying to acheive etc.

I think if its a thoughtful insiting movie not a hack and slash it would be great.

^^
I think orks would be good for da comedy as da orks ar da best!

 dakkajet wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
If Games Workshop could produce a movie that could capture the 40k universe, I promise you would see a massive increase in popularity like nothing you have seen before. It would dwarf LOTR, Avatar, everything.

Which is, totally impossible.

A Warhammer 40k movie would be at least 7 hours long, and it's protagonist would be ether be a fanatically racist, xenophonic, ultra religious zealot bent on purging the unpure by committing genocide and mass murder (general Imperials), or we do the same except it's more elegant and lacking in the fanaticism (Eldar). That or we do daemon worshiping pillagers who rape, slaughter and set fire to everything in site, or we have a film about beings that make people's minds explode by the sheer thought of their existence. Or we do a movie about....etc....wedidn'tstartthefire.mp3.

What id do is make the movie based on an imperial guardsmen fighting a rebellion on another imperial world and committing untold horrors and crimes etc and at the begining he is all fine with it and things its for the best but starts to question what he is doing etc and the plot can based on that kind of moral bases. Doesnt need to be about marines or anything as in my opinion those movies would fail horribly. Keep it human based and give it depth and story (less fighting) and i would love to watch it. Or even make a big push on to the futility of what the imperium is trying to acheive etc.

I think if its a thoughtful insiting movie not a hack and slash it would be great.

^^
I think orks would be good for da comedy as da orks ar da best!

Despite being a murderous race of monsters who see amusement in basic brutality and cruel acts.

Again, a 40k movie is simply impossible to properly do since no real relatable protagonist is available. Any movie attempt would end up like the Star Wars Prequels.