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I've been under the impression that a unit with both infiltrate and outflank can be designated as infiltrating or outflank at the "Deploy infiltrators" step. During the 11th company GT this weekend, one of my opponents disagreed with my reading of the rules. We called a TO over, and he sided with my opponent. I'm cool with the decision, but I'd still like to play it properly going forward.

My stance, that the unit can be designated as going into reserves at the "Deploy infiltrators" step is based on the wording of the two rules, which when combined, I believe allow this.
The infiltrate rule states "...models with the infiltrate rule deploy last..." It doesn't say "can". it doesn't say "may."
The outflank rule states something to the effect of "Instead of deploying, this unit may be held in reserve." I don't have the book in front of me at the moment.

Where is my disconnect on this?

Outflank is declared when you declare which units go into reserve iirc.

Infiltrate is just deploying after everything else is deployed following the infiltrate rules. If you didnt put a unit with outflanking into reserves (and declare its outflanking) its not outflanking and not in reserve and must be deployed normally. In case of infiltrators this means deploying them last following the rules for infiltrate.

Right, but you dictate which units are going into reserves during deployment. Scout move and infiltrator placement is still part of deployment.

No, It clearly states in the rule if your going to outflank with a unit, it' is put in reserve.If your going to Infiltrate with it, you put it on the board last. I don't see what the problem is?

Someone else had a thread open of this exact thing. I believe, about declaring after your opponent has deployed that your infiltrators are going to outflank instead. Which is wrong.

The whole point of the "deploys last" is because if your opponent also has infiltrators you roll off (i believe/decide who places first) than you can place the model the 18" / 12" away from the enemy.

Yes, so only those units with Infiltrate are yet to deploy (those with Scout have already deployed by the time you get to Infiltrators deploying, OR they have been placed in reserve) by the time you get to the Infiltrate.... step. Meaning a unit with Infiltrate could at this point choose to either Infiltrate, or Outflank, or go in "normal" reserves.

For Scouts you have to decide to deploy them, THEN let them make a scout move, OR put them in reserve at the same time as other non-infiltrate models

Nosferatu, that's exactly my point. I think that's how the rules work together. The posters above your post seem to disagree with this.

I guess where I'm getting hung up, is that it seems like the rules FORCE you to deploy any model with the infiltrate USR last, in the "deploy infiltrators" step. The infiltrate USR isn't worded in such a way that you can choose not to use it. It doesn't say "models with infiltrate MAY deploy last", it also doesn't say "models making use of the infiltrate USR", it very simply states "...models with infiltrate deploy last..." I'm not given permission to deploy a unit with infiltrate at the "normal" deployment step.

If the unit in question was a unit of Tau stealth suits, it seems to me that I would hold back until after other units, and scouts, had been deployed on both sides, then I can choose whether to deploy normally, deep strike, outflank, infiltrate, or come in via walk-on reserves.

If you disagree with this, or find any holes in my logic, please quote the rule book with page numbers for me so I can wrap my head around this.

I dont see any issues with that - use of Infiltrate appears non-optional, but does not force your deployment on the table - it just means you can reserve (DS, outflank, etc) at the infiltrate step instead of at the normal step. Which is usually an advantage

I just posted about this sometime last week.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562114.page

p124 states you must declare which units are being placed in reserve during deployment.

p121 defines when scout moves and infiltrators occur, it states this is done after both players have deployed


This means while you are deploying your main force you are declaring which units are being placed in reserve for what ever reason. Once you and your opponent have deployed both force you then move onto placing your infiltrators and making scout moves. As you can see from the rule referenced above this is done after both sides have deployed (and have declared which units are being placed in reserve). How exactly do you change your deployment methods after they have already been declared? So by not declaring that a unit is going into reserve (if they have the ability to outflank and infiltrate) then you have already decided that they will be infiltrating by default.

Page 38 states they are "deployed last". Please explain how this is not part of deployment

On page 38 it states they are deployed last as a general explanation for when this happens in the sequence. The rules I listed on pages 121 and 124 specifically state in which sequence these events happen. I am not sure what you trying to imply, could you please elaborate?

On page 121 I would reference the statement within Deploying Infiltrators and Redeploying Scouts.

First, both players deploy their forces (apart from any units left kept as reserves or that chose to use their Infiltrate Special Rule)

This would seem to me to dictate that you must have chosen to have either left those units at the end to be in either Reserve or to have used their Infiltrate Special Rule.

The USR would allow them to be deployed last as Infiltrators.
The USR would grant them Outflank if you had chosen to keep them left in Reserve.

As you must declare whether or not they are in Reserve or have chosen to use infiltrate per the deploying infiltrators text I would think that you are required to declare which of those options they are using during the Normal Deployment of the Rest of your Force, at the same time you determine which half of your total units are being kept in reserve during Normal Deployment. If you're not going to deploy the Infiltrators, they would never benefit from the use of the Infiltrators rules to Deploy Last as they are not being deployed.

Or to put it another way, you must state they are using their Infiltrate special rule to Deploy using that rule, this allows them to Deploy last. If they are going in reserve, they will never deploy, and thus don't benefit from the Infiltrator special rule to deploy last, but they get the Benefit of Outflank. If you declare they are using Infiltrate, they must deploy as the rule only applies to them being deployed last, not going into reserves last.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or yet another way, the rule doesn't say that Infiltrate bypasses the rules for declaring reserves during the Normal Deployment phase of all your units. As Infiltrators as specifically mentioned within a paragraph of deployment apart from when Reserves are declared, you wouldn't be able to place them in reserve as that step will have already occurred.

 Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
On page 38 it states they are deployed last as a general explanation for when this happens in the sequence. The rules I listed on pages 121 and 124 specifically state in which sequence these events happen. I am not sure what you trying to imply, could you please elaborate?

The point is that you cannot claim this is not deployment; the rule for Infiltrate states it is still deployment. As such you still have the option of heading into reserves, as this is something open to a model when it able to deploy

You are absolutely right, on page 38 it does in fact state that models with this rule are deployed last. The 4th paragraph (ignoring the first fluff paragraph) which explains this special rule specifically states that models with infiltrate are also granted the outflank special rule. It even goes on to reference you to page 40, which then references you to page 124.

The point is that you cannot claim this is not deployment; the rule for Infiltrate states it is still deployment. As such you still have the option of heading into reserves, as this is something open to a model when it able to deploy

I have made no such claim. I am simply stating that given the rules that are provided in the rule book you are required to declare all units being placed in reserve when you deploy your main force. You are even instructed that you must, in great detail, explain to your opponent how each unit will be arriving from reserve. I have been unable to find any requirement which states you must declare a model is using the infiltrate special rule. What I am proposing is that you are unable to place a unit in reserve (if it has not been declared so at the appropriate time) during the Infiltrating and scout move step of the deployment.

You are required to explain the arangement of reserves during deployment; infiltrate is still deployment.

@ Hindsight and Bobaram -

I'm still under the impression that I CAN'T deploy a unit with infiltrate at any point before the "deploy infiltrators" step. Please read the wording of the rule. "...Models with infiltrate deploy last..." It doesn't say "can deploy last", it doesn't say "if using the infiltrate USR." It dictates that units with the infiltrate USR HAVE to deploy last. There's no place in the rules that override this requirement to deploy last, which means the only time I get to declare what they're doing, is during the "deploy infiltrators" step.

If we decide that the wording of the infiltrate rule is optional, meaning that I can deploy during the "normal" deployment step (which is what you're both suggesting I HAVE to do if I want to deep-strike or outflank), then what stops me from taking a USR with negatives associated with it, like slow-and-purposeful, and calling it optional as well?

I'm with the last part of bobarim's post:

Infiltrate is not optional, If you decide to deploy the unit (as the action of deploying) then they must be deployed last according to the infiltrate USR.

Additionally, as with any unit, you can elect to place them into reserves instead of deploying them during the deployment phase. This decision must occur at the same time that you make the decision for all the other units of your army. This decision is made during your "deployment phase" only, not during the actual "act of deploying" the unit.

Thus, it is the decision to go into reserves that prevents you from placing your infiltrators into reserve during the "deploy infiltrators" phase. At the time when you would perform your "act of deploying" for the infiltrators, you have already missed the chance to declare which units can be placed into reserve.

-Mark

Well said Mark. I would have to point out thought that all reserves are declared when you deploy your entire force. This happens before infiltrates are placed on the field and before scout moves are made per pg 121. You are ultimately left with two options.

1. You declare you will be outflanking a unit while deploying your main force and they are then placed in reserves.

or.

2. You do not declare anything and deploy them during the infiltrate and scout move step. You can not however, place them back into reserves at this point (this would have been declared when you deployed your army.)

This is the conclusion I came to while following all the rules for reserves, outflanking, infiltrate, and the process of deploying your army as explained on pg 124.

The reason I believe the rules to be written in this manner is to prevent someone from deploying first and using the infiltrator special rule to put the unit back into reserves for outflanking purposes after observing someones deployment.

Filthy Sanchez wrote:
@ Hindsight and Bobaram -

I'm still under the impression that I CAN'T deploy a unit with infiltrate at any point before the "deploy infiltrators" step. Please read the wording of the rule. "...Models with infiltrate deploy last..." It doesn't say "can deploy last", it doesn't say "if using the infiltrate USR." It dictates that units with the infiltrate USR HAVE to deploy last. There's no place in the rules that override this requirement to deploy last, which means the only time I get to declare what they're doing, is during the "deploy infiltrators" step.

If we decide that the wording of the infiltrate rule is optional, meaning that I can deploy during the "normal" deployment step (which is what you're both suggesting I HAVE to do if I want to deep-strike or outflank), then what stops me from taking a USR with negatives associated with it, like slow-and-purposeful, and calling it optional as well?

It's not the wording of the infiltrate rule that is optional, it's the wording of the deployment rules that state you must declare you are using the infiltrate rule as opposed to placing it in reserve. If the unit is going into Reserve it is not deploying. Per the wording of the Infiltrate USR Outflank is only granted to the unit IF it is placed in reserves. In order to be in Reserves you must declare it as such during the beginning of your deployment when you choose to place up to half your total models into Reserves. If one goes with the idea that Infiltrate is part of the entire deployment (as an entire section of the game) and merely goes LAST within the Deployment Portion then you must still declare the unit in Reserve during the same time as the rest of your army. Yet again, Deploying a unit is placing it on the table, Models in Reserve are not deployed at this time.

If you look at Reserves it says that you can choose not to Deploy up to half your army, these units are kept in Reserve. Therefore Reserves is when a model is not deployed. It also further goes on to say you must clearly explain the organization of your Reserves to your opponent.

Combine this when it says in the Deploy Infiltrators Step that it occurs After you have deployed your entire army(with the exception of Reserves and those who chose to use their infiltrators special rule) then infilitrators and Reserves are quite clearly Separate Entities, and must be declared by the time this step occurs. Infiltrate will grant them Deployment at this step, provided they are not in Reserves.

Combining both of these rules you see that Deployment is the act of placing your models on the table, if you choose to place the Infiltrators in Reserve they count as the half of the army that you are not deploying and are kept in Reserve. Reserves is a separate Rule from Infiltrate and therefore Infiltrate does not change the Reserves rule outside of the fact that it grants outflank, it does not say in it's wording that it changes when Reserves are declared.

You would declare you are placing said unit in Reserves at the time you tell your opponent what units are in reserve, and per Infiltrate could declare they are now using Outflank. Since the step clearly divides between infiltrators and units in reserve then you can see that infiltrators are not reserves. As before you've reached this step you have already declared whats in reserve and per the reserves rules you must explain clearly to your opponent the organization of your reserves, if you decide after declaring your reserves to place a unit into reserves you have violated the rule stating they must have a clear understanding of your reserves. As infiltrate applies to Deploying your units last, if they are in Reserves they are NOT deploying, they are going into reserves and therefore are not deployed and do NOT use the infiltrate rules in regards to Deploying Last.

I was under the same impression as the OP. I recall having seen rules discussions that the phrasing of the 'Infitrate' rule means that IC's without 'Infiltrate' can never join a unit with the rule during deployment as the condition of being 'infiltrators' is not dependent on the deployment method.

Since the 'Infiltrate', 'Outflank' and 'Reserves' rules all specify decision making 'during deployment', and the 'Infiltrate' special rule specifies that the unit deploys after all other units, then I would say you are still 'during deployment' until those models hit the table. That would mean that since the decision to put a unit into reserves is made 'during deployment' then you could still have them outflank.

It depends on whether or not the unit is 'infiltrators' if it is outflanking.
If so - you can still select to put them into reserves after everyting else is deployed, but you can never have an IC without the Infiltrate rule join them, even if outflanking.
If not - you have to decide during normal deployment if they are going into reserves, but you can attach an IC without 'Infiltrate' to them at this time.

My 2c worth anyway. It is a matter of RAI on the interpretation of the meaning of the word 'infiltrators' in the 'Infiltrate' special rule. Either way could be valid depending on how you interpret that word - units with the 'Infiltrate' USR, or units deploying using the special rules listed in the 'Infiltrate' USR.

121, Deployment

Deploying Infiltrators and Redeplying Scouts
The sequence for Infiltrators and scouts is the same in all Eternal war missions. First, both players deploy their forces (Apart from any units left kept as reserves OR choose to use their infiltrate special rule). When Both players have deployed there main force, then they deploy infiltrators.

Emphasis mine. Reserves or choose to use Infiltrate SR, Infiltrate is a deployment method which it utilised, and its utilised after the reserves boat has sailed by. You either do or do not use it, if your not deploying via infiltrate, you are no longer using the rules which allow you to deploy last.

Also note it specifies the use of infiltrate as a choice.

My opinion, after reading all pertinent rules: If you've not declared them being in reserves DURING DEPLOYMENT then they can infiltrate ONCE YOU'VE DEPLOYED. However, if you've declared them to be in reserves you cannot then decide to infiltrate them.

It's one or the other.