2014 NOVA Open a Success! 2015 event will be 9/3-9/6/2015! Huge Surprises Already!

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**Leth**

Yep, I still have mine and finally got around to getting the cardboard boxes for them. The backpack two is perfect for my 1850 army with space to spare. Looking forward to taking it on its first flight soon.

**zedsdead**

Red Corsair wrote:

For me any reasoning someone provides for making a decision is acceptable if its their event. Whats unacceptable is the vitriol that gets thrown toward anyone who asks what that reasoning is.

It is staggering that some people immediately enter a conversation with spear points aimed. Just because someone questions something about an event doesn't mean they are attacking the event.

I also find it disturbing that people use the argument from authority "If you don't play in an event you have no right to ask questions." It's like saying people who didn't play in the NBA playoffs have no right discussing the tournament. Incredibly stupid stance. If it's a publicly lauded event then expect the public to be involved. So you can livestream an event globally but the viewers aren't allowed involvement at any level? It's more complicated as well since so many tournaments borrow large tournaments packets and decisions. Heck the NOVA is leaning on the ETC's ruling on serpent shields! (Not questioning that decision, it just happens to be a great example).

Doesn't hurt to ask questions, and in fact it's healthy for the community.

Having heard many responses to my questions on list submission (the polite, adult responses) I can say I understand why it wasn't done. Mainly logistics and timing seems to be the issue. Is their room for an advantage? I still think its there, but its so minor that it isn't worth the hassle, which was all I was curious about. If it was an easy fix why not. Just like if chess clocks were an easy/cheap solution to timing in event why wouldn't it be used?

In regard to list approval, I think lists should be checked if its possible. Again it's the TO's call. I understand fully why they wouldn't want to. It's way better to trust players then to not. Having said that, I think the biggest concern for me are the innocent mistakes that 7th might elevate with multiple detachments and sources. I think this is why it might be best to keep it simple and just use a set number of sources.

RC i think its fair to ask questions and its fair to ask why choices were made by the TO's. However even you admit that the questions have all been addressed and in this case by Mike the TO of NOVA.The problem arises when people continue to berate the TO for his choices and continue to make accustory alligations. Also in a number of cases in this thread it just seems that once one question is answered it creates others questions that dont even petain to the event. Soon the thread devolves into little more than hen pecking pettiness.

Everyone has there opinions on how "they" would run things. But from what ive seen in the comments that even though Mike has been a gentleman and answered why he made his choices. Some still arent satisfied.

**Chancetragedy**

MVBrandt wrote:
The VIP Bags ... I should try to find a pic. The bags themselves are KR Multicases (Backpack2 in your first year as a VIP, then BackPack2 or Kaiser2 in your 2nd year, then BackPack2, Kaiser2, or Kaiser3 in your third year, etc.), and include lifetime Buy-One-Get-One KR Multicases for each future NOVA you attend. There's a beer mug, a bunch of custom swag, Greenman measuring tools with their names and army/codex/faction/game-system-logo of choice on them, custom dice, hand made big suede nova-logo'ed/embroidered dice bags, and a ton of other stuff.

They are the baddest ass VIP Bags anywhere, by hardcore commitment (and a willingness to put every penny of their $80 cost right back into the contents) (also, this is totally subjective and totally biased opinion lol). They're also a sweet deal, since the KR bags themselves cost more than the VIP itself costs, though we changed to calling it a SuperNOVA ... as it doesn't seem right or appropriate to call someone very important just b/c they paid more and registered super fast.

Bummer mine didn't have the dice;(. The greenman custom TAC template is awesome though. As are the beer mug, the coffee mug, and the dice bag. If I can get on it I'll definately be doing supernova again next year. Completely 100% worth it.

**Red Corsair**

nkelsch wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:

Having heard many responses to my questions on list submission (the polite, adult responses) I can say I understand why it wasn't done. Mainly logistics and timing seems to be the issue. Is their room for an advantage? I still think its there, but its so minor that it isn't worth the hassle, which was all I was curious about. If it was an easy fix why not. Just like if chess clocks were an easy/cheap solution to timing in event why wouldn't it be used?

And 'it isn't broken' so it doesn't need to be fixed. There are dozens of valid reasons people might need to change a list close to the event. Every barrier you put up keeps people out. Requiring lists 2 weeks ahead of time denies participating to a lot of people who sign up last minute. Also, what do you do if someone loses an army, fails to finish building an army or has a disaster like their display table is flipped over and all their models broken? Disqualify them and say they can't participate with a new list or army? Give them an exception and make others unahppy? Then can someone intentionally break their army if they want to use a different list in order to 'game' the meta? People can always come up with exaggerated false narratives to say why something needs to be addressed, but it becomes an unreasonable burden and punishment to the vast majority of people who just want to enjoy the event. Saying there are 'things needing to be fixed' when there is no actual problem is the problem.

It simply isn't a 'problem' which needs to be 'fixed' regardless of 'simple' your solution is. That is your false premise, you are fixing something that isn't a problem because there is no single correct way to handle the timeperiod of 'when it is fair to pre-submit'. As long as everyone is required to submit at the same time, be it 5 minutes before the event or 3 months before, it is fair as long as everyone is held to the same standard and different events have different standards for different reasons and people attend different tourneys who run in different ways. Your argument is it is 'unfair' to have people working on lists once they arrive at the convention but before the event which is absurd and false. Calling it 'tailoring' is also false.

And Time clocks... 40k is not balanced around or expected in the rules to have equal play due to the nature of interactive turns. So chess timers could cost a penny and be available at the grocery store and it wouldn't be a 'simple fix' because the 'fix' is fixing something which isn't necessarily broken. Slow play, game time, length of game per points are all complex issues which do not involve the concept of 'equal time' which is not supported by the mechanics and rules of the game. If an event chose to implement it, that would be fine, but many players would choose not to participate in such an event because it is a form of army comp people don't agree with (I don't agree with it, I prefer due process, reasonable game times and judges proctoring slow play over chess clocks which unfairly impact specific armies/builds). Doesn't mean it can't be done, but remember, when you run your event, at some point too pointless rules and 'fixes' to theoretical problems excludes people and one of the strengths of NOVA is it is a very inclusive event. It is not trying to throw up barriers to find reasons to exclude participants.

You are trying to install crosswalks on roads with no pedestrians and fix things which are not broken. By even continuing to call these 'fixes' shows how you simply don't understand what is going on.

You continue to pull conclusions out of the air that I never made. You also continue with the hostile tone. maybe it's unintentional, but I am starting to wonder if I have somehow offended you? You seriously are having major comprehension issues reading things that don't exist between the lines, and maybe that's my fault as I am not always the best author in forums but I have done my best to illustrate my sincerity.

Chess clocks was just an example and I never advocated for it. I said merely that if it was solution to some of the time issues and they were a penny and available at grocery stores as you put it (I liked that part actually

) then why not do it? I also think your now making assumptions based on a false premise, in that tournaments in 7th avoid comping. The bigger the tournament, the more comping it needs to in order to function. Timing the events is a comp in place that has already condemned time consuming armies from play like horde armies for example, so it's not as though finding a way to give each player their equal share of the time limit would be doing damage that wasn't already done.

Asking if their is a problem, and if so how can it be fixed is not the same as saying there is a problem. Seriously dude, deep breaths, I never slandered the event I just asked why/how people were changing lists last minute and if it mattered enough to be concerned, and if so how/could it be fixed easily. If my asking questions offends you I suggest you put me on ignore, because right now your reading way deeper into this then you should.

**JGrand**

Asking if their is a problem, and if so how can it be fixed is not the same as saying there is a problem. Seriously dude, deep breaths, I never slandered the event I just asked why/how people were changing lists last minute and if it mattered enough to be concerned, and if so how/could it be fixed easily. If my asking questions offends you I suggest you put me on ignore, because right now your reading way deeper into this then you should.

No one is saying that you can't ask this question. However, it seems clear that it isn't a problem. Furthermore, even if list changing somehow is a problem (and it really isn't), there is no reasonable solution.

**Red Corsair**

Spoiler:

zedsdead wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
gorgon wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
So discussing army list checking...on average it takes me at least 5 min to check a list (using a codex to check points, and make sure all choices made are legal), more if I am less familiar with the faction in question.

So at a GT with 32 players that takes 2 hours and 40 min at a minimum.

With 256 players you are looking at closer to 22 hours. You should probably have multiple people check the lists. Oh and there are multiple events so we would need to check those events as well....

With volunteers....honestly this seems like such a minor part of what would be important for enjoyment from an attendee. As a TO it is also a pain to track people down for lists even with 20-30 people, and if they forget to turn it in but have paid am I really going to say "Sorry your out all your money for traveling here because you did not turn in yout list."

Spot checking is also an option for larger events to provide at least a little disincentive for any intentional list problems. Illegal lists DO get handed in at events. Most times they're minor, unintentional and easily corrected.

I think it's disingenuous to claim that attendees don't give a gak. I think most players at a competitive event would care quite a bit if they discovered that they suffered a loss against someone who was 20 pts over the limit -- whether the extra points were impactful in the game or not, and whether they were intentional or not. Using a corked bat is illegal no matter how well you hit with one. I think they'd care even more if they found out the guy used different lists against different opponents.

But I recognize that different events take different approaches and put emphases on different things.

For me any reasoning someone provides for making a decision is acceptable if its their event. Whats unacceptable is the vitriol that gets thrown toward anyone who asks what that reasoning is.

It is staggering that some people immediately enter a conversation with spear points aimed. Just because someone questions something about an event doesn't mean they are attacking the event.

I also find it disturbing that people use the argument from authority "If you don't play in an event you have no right to ask questions." It's like saying people who didn't play in the NBA playoffs have no right discussing the tournament. Incredibly stupid stance. If it's a publicly lauded event then expect the public to be involved. So you can livestream an event globally but the viewers aren't allowed involvement at any level? It's more complicated as well since so many tournaments borrow large tournaments packets and decisions. Heck the NOVA is leaning on the ETC's ruling on serpent shields! (Not questioning that decision, it just happens to be a great example).

Doesn't hurt to ask questions, and in fact it's healthy for the community.

Having heard many responses to my questions on list submission (the polite, adult responses) I can say I understand why it wasn't done. Mainly logistics and timing seems to be the issue. Is their room for an advantage? I still think its there, but its so minor that it isn't worth the hassle, which was all I was curious about. If it was an easy fix why not. Just like if chess clocks were an easy/cheap solution to timing in event why wouldn't it be used?

In regard to list approval, I think lists should be checked if its possible. Again it's the TO's call. I understand fully why they wouldn't want to. It's way better to trust players then to not. Having said that, I think the biggest concern for me are the innocent mistakes that 7th might elevate with multiple detachments and sources. I think this is why it might be best to keep it simple and just use a set number of sources.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgendonner wrote:

Beyond that, why should invitational players be penalized into having to play the same army for potentially 13 games?

This was never suggested. What was suggested was that all lists be submitted at the same time. So once you start at the convention you submit all your lists. So you could still play one list in the invitational, one at the Open and another for say trios etc etc.

People raised a good point though, that if a player only plays in the Open, they could still submit an army a day later then other. Makes sense not to worry about it then. I was just curious why they were not.

RC i think its fair to ask questions and its fair to ask why choices were made by the TO's. However even you admit that the questions have all been addressed and in this case by Mike the TO of NOVA.The problem arises when people continue to berate the TO for his choices and continue to make accustory alligations. Also in a number of cases in this thread it just seems that once one question is answered it creates others questions that dont even petain to the event. Soon the thread devolves into little more than hen pecking pettiness.

Everyone has there opinions on how "they" would run things. But from what ive seen in the comments that even though Mike has been a gentleman and answered why he made his choices. Some still arent satisfied.

I am very sympathetic to this as well, and I have made it a point to applaud the whole NOVA teams achievement. Heck I'll do it again, Great job to Dirty Mike and the boyz! (Sorry trying to lighten the mood

what does it better then a Will Ferrel movie reference!)

What they do with limited resources and time is monstrous!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JGrand wrote:
Asking if their is a problem, and if so how can it be fixed is not the same as saying there is a problem. Seriously dude, deep breaths, I never slandered the event I just asked why/how people were changing lists last minute and if it mattered enough to be concerned, and if so how/could it be fixed easily. If my asking questions offends you I suggest you put me on ignore, because right now your reading way deeper into this then you should.

No one is saying that you can't ask this question. However, it seems clear that it isn't a problem. Furthermore, even if list changing somehow is a problem (and it really isn't), there is no reasonable solution.

OK then. That's all that I was asking yet some folks want to start a witch hunt. I understand trolls exist on the internet. But treating everyone who asks why as if they are one is an awful foot to put forward.

**Super Newb**

These long ass quote blocks are hurting my brain. Also it may be a sign that this discussion has gone on too long.

**Red Corsair**

Super Newb wrote:
These long ass quote blocks are hurting my brain. Also it may be a sign that this discussion has gone on too long.

I agree fully. This should have taken a few posts to sort out in a civil manner yet it became an unnecessary witch hunt.

Edit: I added spoilers

**MVBrandt**

I would not like for it to be a witch hunt, Red; forgive me for any role I played in that indirectly or otherwise by sharing some of my frustration with the annual crew of negative nonattending nancies, and causing you to get plopped in there at all as a result.

**Nicorex**

Tironum wrote:
Anyone have pics of the early swag bags or the vip bags?

Here you go.
This is one of the KnR bags offered to SuperNova's.

Here is the "Swag" that came inside of it.

So we got some cool stuff. Beer mug and shot glass, coozie, ball cap, monogrammed dice bag, tape measure, a few pens (3 from NOVA, one from Atlantis games, one regular, two with the rubber nub for us on your tablet or iPad and one with a built in lazer pointer!), some Secret Weapon bases and wash, A nice tote bag (extra pocket and pen holders), Infinity terrain and game board (paper craft), A tin of mints (the large white die), some GF9 fantasy battle tokens, an objective marker from Greenman designs, a button ( I do not know what game it is from though). a luggage tag (with the NOVA logo on the other side), some assorted size magnets and a measuring template that was custom made for me( chaos symbols and my name etched into it, pretty cool actually), also a bottle opener, big NOVA sticker and a basic copy of the rules for "Infinity".
There was also a great bag filled with snacks and a bottle of water. I think that was everything.

Mike whoever decided on the choices for the snack bag did a SUPER job. All the crap that I like was in it.

Thanks for once again putting on a great tourney. I had a blast.

**pizzaguardian**

Enough with sharing the goodies already. I am already unhappy i can't attend to Nova, you don't have to rub it in!

**Nicorex**

Well Pizza since those are the only "goodies" I got all weekend I felt the need to boast a little.

**Dozer Blades**

That is by far the best swag bag I ever saw !!

**Chancetragedy**

It was incredible, I got a sweet nova coffee mug in mine with a KR backpack2. I do miss the bits from last year because I used every single one. but this one was better overall for sure. Also winning a drop zone commander rulebook in the lemonade raffle was great.

**Reecius**

NOVA was an awesome event, the Team Zero Comp guys that went all had fun! We will be back next year with more of the crew.

**Dozer Blades**

I hope you've a swag bag that good for LVO !! : )

**Hollismason**

The Swag Bag wars have begun, that's the best swag bag I've seen, what's the difference for Supernova, I didn't realize there was a VIP thing for it.

**Chancetragedy**

The difference is supernova includes a customized TAC template(mine has my name and a radical dark eldar symbol etched I to it), a glass beer mug, a coffee mug, a KR case, and I think a few other things.

**Red Corsair**

MVBrandt wrote:
I would not like for it to be a witch hunt, Red; forgive me for any role I played in that indirectly or otherwise by sharing some of my frustration with the annual crew of negative nonattending nancies, and causing you to get plopped in there at all as a result.

No worries what so ever Mike. I have a great amount of respect for you and your team and what you achieve and it is more then understandable that you guys vent some steam created by the unneeded blow back from some of the less then glowing parts of the community! Again great work!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also holy mother of feth that is some insane swag! I think the bar has been raised!

**Master Shake**

Great event, Mike. Always a pleasure.

**Brothererekose**

Way to go, MVBrandt, setting the swag bar so damned high. Douche.

**Orock**

I don't think 40k has ever needed comp scores back as badly as now. Look at the top 10 lists, and you will see so much cheese you will think you are in Wisconsin.

**MVBrandt**

I've never seen comp stop cheese.

**Crablezworth**

Comp is like a cheese grater, you merely alter the cheese's form.

**Orock**

Crablezworth wrote:
Comp is like a cheese grater, you merely alter the cheese's form.

Well seeing the same lists dominate from early 6th to what looks to be thru the rest of 7th isn't any better. Unless you think the last few armies are going to be so radically changed as they stop wave serpent spam in its tracks.

**Chancetragedy**

What list are you talking about? Because non of the lists present in the top 10 of nova have been around since early 6th.

**Orock**

Chancetragedy wrote:
What list are you talking about? Because non of the lists present in the top 10 of nova have been around since early 6th.

wave serpent spam has been around for years, and 6th made necron crossant spam a thing too.

**Crablezworth**

Whether or not the humble wave serpent has/needs a 225 degree arc, it's still one of the best units in the game because it has it all, speed, durability and firepower and to top it all off a good deal of shots that ignore cover and a crazy range. I dont see how that's any worse than army x featuring knight. I'm a proponent of one source no allies no anything, you and a codex, but I'm under no illusion that that would be "more fair" as some codex's are simply stronger than others. Forgeworld has my respect for labeling certain units as relic IE it's 0-1. With GW that's almost unheard of because they fear regulating in anyway what players can field might have some sort of financial ramification.

**pizzaguardian**

Orock wrote:
Chancetragedy wrote:
What list are you talking about? Because non of the lists present in the top 10 of nova have been around since early 6th.

wave serpent spam has been around for years, and 6th made necron crossant spam a thing too.

You mean 13 months? Because that's how long the eldar codex has been out there, it is a june 2013 release.

Even necron bakery has only really been around since 6th codex drop which is less then 28 months.

Serpent spam is strong granted, but it doesn't auto win in a tournament such as NOVA, you can't just disregard player skill.

**Chancetragedy**

Exactly. He was the one who qualified early 6th. Eldar has been a current dex for only 13 months as stated. And seer council/beastpack really only became popular again In the last 10 months or so. Croissant spam died for the end of 6th thanks to eldar/tau and just recently became popular again. Demons have been popular since forever so idk.