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You keep talking about titans.

This thread is not about titans, it is about FW. Stop using an absurd argument that is actually harming the point you're trying to make. I would also like to ask you to remain on topic and stop trolling. EVIL INC probably won't get the joke.

Titans aren't allowed in normal 40k. Your entire argument is moot.

 EVIL INC wrote:
the point (and the only one that really matters in this whole long drawn out conversation is comprised of two parts.

1. Does a TO have the RIGHT to decide what is allowed in their tournament? The answer is yes. They have the RIGHT to disallow people from bringing titans to 1500 point tournaments if they so desire. They have the RIGHT to eject someone who is disturbing the tournament or who shows up drunk or sets the tables on fire. They have the RIGHT to ban nyone who is wearing socks that have holes in the heels (this woulda put me out on at least one occasion).

This part here you're dragging in for no reason, no one is arguing against this.

 EVIL INC wrote:
2. Do players have the RIGHT to not play a game is someone if bringing a warlord titan to to a 500 point squd match? Yes Do players have the RIGHT to turn down a game because they feel ill? yes Does a player have the RIGHT to turn down a game against a player who shows up with 3 riptides? yes. Does a player have the RIGHT to turn down a game against a person who uses vulgar language,mishandles models and stinks to high heaven while digging down the front of their pants and then insisting they reach their grubby mitts into your potato chip bag (I know I would turn this game down) yes.

You mean "brings an illegal army to a 500 point game"? Yes, yes you should be turning down. Also Titans have no FOC slot and could be taken anyways so please stop using them in your examples, it's making them bad.

Players have the right to turn down any game they want. The thing is that we shouldn't be mass banning things like we are because people should have the right to play anything they want (within reason and as long as it's for the fun of both players not just one. I really don't approve of cheeseball players regardless of what they play) because it's denying their rights to play things they think are cool or interesting in the name of "protecting the game" which really doesn't need anyone protecting it, it needs to stop being crammed in a little box and given room to breathe and grow.

 EVIL INC wrote:
What seems to be being overlooked is that regardless ofwho is argueing what side, thee basic gaming rights are being totally ignored in the vain attempt to "one up" the other side and get the last jab in.

You missed a RIGHT there: the right to bring cool and neat stuff because you like it to a game and not be shunned because it's not straight out of a codex. That's a right the anti-FW crowd seems happy to kick to the curb to "protect the game" but fails to recognize that the game doesn't need their protection and that it's not as narrowly defined as they seem to want it to be.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Vaktathi, that is EXACTLY what is being proposed and it is being proposed that TO and players forfeit their rights to make the single person at the shop who owns the titan happy and why they are posting here supporting that. I am well versed in how FW stuff "works".

Um, how "no it's not"? I've been arguing that FW should be treated no differently than any codex is in terms of what you can play (and there are rules regarding what can and can't be taken in every FW book as somethings, like the Titans you're fond of mentioning, are meant only for Apoc games, not "normal" games) and that the basis on which a person turns down a game should not be on where the things come from, but the player in question and the intent of the list they're trying to play (example: a hard core competitive player bring Triptide versus my all foot horde Sisters army in a fun game would be the kind of thing I'd like to avoid dealing with when possible because it's not fun for me. This has nothing to do with where the rules come from, just the quality of the game for the player and what they desire in their games).

 EVIL INC wrote:
the point (and the only one that really matters in this whole long drawn out conversation is comprised of two parts.

1. Does a TO have the RIGHT to decide what is allowed in their tournament? The answer is yes. They have the RIGHT to disallow people from bringing titans to 1500 point tournaments if they so desire. They have the RIGHT to eject someone who is disturbing the tournament or who shows up drunk or sets the tables on fire. They have the RIGHT to ban nyone who is wearing socks that have holes in the heels (this woulda put me out on at least one occasion).

2. Do players have the RIGHT to not play a game is someone if bringing a warlord titan to to a 500 point squd match? Yes Do players have the RIGHT to turn down a game because they feel ill? yes Does a player have the RIGHT to turn down a game against a player who shows up with 3 riptides? yes. Does a player have the RIGHT to turn down a game against a person who uses vulgar language,mishandles models and stinks to high heaven while digging down the front of their pants and then insisting they reach their grubby mitts into your potato chip bag (I know I would turn this game down) yes.

What seems to be being overlooked is that regardless ofwho is argueing what side, thee basic gaming rights are being totally ignored in the vain attempt to "one up" the other side and get the last jab in.

Vaktathi, that is EXACTLY what is being proposed and it is being proposed that TO and players forfeit their rights to make the single person at the shop who owns the titan happy and why they are posting here supporting that. I am well versed in how FW stuff "works".

Point 1 is not in dispute. TO have had the ability to change and allow/disallow items as much as they want. Titans are not a part of 40k they are apocalypse only units. The units in question have the 40k stamp of approval and while some are considered overpowered they are no more so than bringing multiple riptides.

Point 2 has also always been the case and is not in dispute. Any player my choose not to play any other player for any reason that they so rationally or irrationally decide upon.

Please stop using the titans in tournaments argument as this has never been an issue and is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

 EVIL INC wrote:
you might not have noticed but I am pro-forge world. I think the models are great and wish I was independently wealthy enough to own a few items. Unfortunately, I work for a living and don't have that kind of cash to toss about..

I work for a living as well.

 cvtuttle wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
you might not have noticed but I am pro-forge world. I think the models are great and wish I was independently wealthy enough to own a few items. Unfortunately, I work for a living and don't have that kind of cash to toss about..

I work for a living as well.

I'm currently in college and play Sisters so not only is my spending budget already taxed but I get incredibly little from arguing for Forgeworld. That said, I still think people need to stop putting 40k into some kind of little box on whatever limited scope they think 40k "should" be.

hyperbole deleted.

Reds8n

Did you even read the posts?? I ask in all seriousness because you seem to lack the comprehesion of what was said. No one is saying that a TO cannot ban what ever they please. They can do this, they are doing this and they will do this. You are using a flawed argument to try and drum up support of banning forgeworld units. TITANS ARE NOT PART OF 40K. They are apocolypse units only.

As to your rights you can choose to play/not play/ ban/ approve/ eat/ whatever you want in your games. No one that I have played with would question if a fellow player asked not to bring that one model regardless of if it was GW or forgeworld. However the double standard that OP forgeworld is bad but OP GW is good is crazy.

 EVIL INC wrote:
I am shocked by how many people posting here arefor denying a TO his basic rights. I'm pretty sure that if you went to any shop I have ever been to and told the TO he has no rights and to sit bak and shut up because your doing anything you want, you will at the very least be laughed at. Most likely denied entry to the tourney and if you were as mouthy and insulting to them as you are under the protection of the anonamous internet, banned from the store.

No one has claimed that, in fact, we said it was never an issue or up for debate here. Please read the topic before posting next time as you're missing key information here.

 EVIL INC wrote:
I am also pretty sure that were you to come to my home and tell me I have no rights as a gamer as to who I will and will not play in te sanctity of my own home, you will be leaving in a lotmore pain than you arrived. Feel free to test that out if you like.

So you're saying that you're not the kind of play I'd want to play with then? Good to know.

You're ignoring a lot of people here and seem to be just trying to stir the pot to get a loud, negative reaction so you can feel vindicated about your position. I don't roll that way so let's look at this a bit more logically:

The argument as it stands regards if players should be able to assume they can bring FW to casual games unless told otherwise by the person they intend to play with instead of not being allowed to do it without permission. This would free players of the burden of being not able to invest in the cool things they like and reduce the frustration for those who play FW, move and are suddenly denied playing their army "because it's FW". The issue that is going on right now is that a vocal part of the community is forcing people to not play things and that's somehow being treated as more fair than people wanting to play things they want to play.

Seriously, the issue is banning things is actually worse for the community because it's the will of a few forced on everyone. Allowing FW doesn't change people's ability to deny games, nor a TO to set up a tournament anyway they wish, but it does open a lot of doors that are unfairly closed and locked by players who see themselves as "protecting the game" as they think it should be, instead of letting it grow and evolve naturally like it should.

I would actually be pretty sad if somebody told me that my preheresy army was heresy. It's not game breaking, just different. I don't even get special weapons in my tactical squads.

Another part of the issue is this:
My store bans forgeworld in their weekly leagues and tournaments because they can't sell the models or the books, so, since GW punishes them, they punish the players.

 deviantduck wrote:
Another part of the issue is this:
My store bans forgeworld in their weekly leagues and tournaments because they can't sell the models or the books, so, since GW punishes them, they punish the players.

Which is silly because they can still make money on all the hobby stuff that goes with it (not to mention all the plastic kits that already exist that GW main sells like the transports and other vehicles). Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 Blacksails wrote:


You keep talking about titans; this is completely irrelevant to the topic! The TO can ban whatever he likes, which is also irrelevant to our discussion of if FW is legal.

Also, classic internet tough guy syndrome;

...I have no rights as a gamer as to who I will and will not play in te sanctity of my own home, you will be leaving in a lotmore pain than you arrived. Feel free to test that out if you like.

*Edit* Oh, and EVIL, try to stay on topic and please stop trolling.

Titans are made by FW (although armorcast used to make them as well) and as FW models are what is being discussed, I use a titan as an extreme example because you know as well as I do that if a "line" is not drawn, the arms race will eventually go to titans.
Tough guy sundrome? The "internet tough guy syndrome" is the internet bully. The one who insists that no one has rights but themselves constantly harasses and bullies them as you are doing. Someone come to my private residence and threatens me and my family, YES, I will defend myself. I'm sorry if you think I don't have the right to do so.

Yes, we all know you are trolling and straying from the topic. I forgive you for it. I refuse to troll myself sticking instead to truths and facts but whatever floats your boat, your welcome to do.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Players have the right to turn down any game they want. The thing is that we shouldn't be mass banning things like we are because people should have the right to play anything they want (within reason and as long as it's for the fun of both players not just one. I really don't approve of cheeseball players regardless of what they play) because it's denying their rights to play things they think are cool or interesting in the name of "protecting the game" which really doesn't need anyone protecting it, it needs to stop being crammed in a little box and given room to breathe and grow.


You missed a RIGHT there: the right to bring cool and neat stuff because you like it to a game and not be shunned because it's not straight out of a codex. That's a right the anti-FW crowd seems happy to kick to the curb to "protect the game" but fails to recognize that the game doesn't need their protection and that it's not as narrowly defined as they seem to want it to be.


Um, how "no it's not"? I've been arguing that FW should be treated no differently than any codex is in terms of what you can play (and there are rules regarding what can and can't be taken in every FW book as somethings, like the Titans you're fond of mentioning, are meant only for Apoc games, not "normal" games) and that the basis on which a person turns down a game should not be on where the things come from, but the player in question and the intent of the list they're trying to play (example: a hard core competitive player bring Triptide versus my all foot horde Sisters army in a fun game would be the kind of thing I'd like to avoid dealing with when possible because it's not fun for me. This has nothing to do with where the rules come from, just the quality of the game for the player and what they desire in their games).

Players have the right to turn down any game they want. You are proposing that players be forced to play you because you brought FW models whether they want to or not. Not a single person is proposing mass bannings. That is only in your imagination. the game is for the pleasure of BOTH players, not just one. if a person does not get enjoyment of being the dunce who is forced to play games they cannot win just so someone with FW models can enjoy a game, than both players are not enjoying themselves. Why are you so against the FW guy bringing items that rae halfway balanced and not overpowered in a normal game? What do you find so wrong with him asking if an opponent minds if he uses it or not? Remember, the enjoyment of playing is for BOTH players.

Not a single person has denied the right of players to bring cool models to show off? heck, you can BET that as soon as I was done painting and basing my armorcast reaver titan that I dragged it straight to the shop to show off and see if anyone was up for an apocalypse type game (shoulda never sold it). you can also bet that I am proud of and show off my cool conversions that feature non-GW models. As a matter of fact, I have YET to see an "anti-FW posters in this entire thread. So far, everyone is impressed with the models and are more than happy to face them so long as they have ample warning to prepare.

Once more, I mention titans because it is an extreme example that you know as well as I do will end up at. You follow my logic when you say it was not designed for normal games. Those types of models that are not designed for normal games are exactly what we are discussing. Not a single person is saying you cant use a FW dreadnought to represent a GW dreadnought even in a tourney. The only things that are being discussed are the FW models that are specifically designed to be used in apoc games or to face other FW models. I mention titans because they are the most iconic example of this.

 FirePainter wrote:
[

Point 1 is not in dispute. TO have had the ability to change and allow/disallow items as much as they want. Titans are not a part of 40k they are apocalypse only units. The units in question have the 40k stamp of approval and while some are considered overpowered they are no more so than bringing multiple riptides.

Point 2 has also always been the case and is not in dispute. Any player my choose not to play any other player for any reason that they so rationally or irrationally decide upon.

Please stop using the titans in tournaments argument as this has never been an issue and is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

point one is indeed one of the two things being disputed. You guys are saying that you have the right to force TO to follow your personal wishes instead of their own or the communities they cater to.the units in question range from FW dreadnoughts to titans. Titans are indeed one of the units your attempting to force TO to use against their wills Models like dreads and all that have the "official" 40k stamp are not in question at all.
point two is also in dispute as you are proposing strongarming people to play games they don't want to. As I said, give me fair warning of the scale of what I might be expecting and I'll be happy to prepare for it. Ram it down my throat at the last second and I likely wont play you just because of the disrespect your showing me.

 cvtuttle wrote:
I work for a living as well.

Good. than you can follow my meaning when I say not every player has a private titan colletion where they can bring 4 of each one to a game supported by thousands of DKoK models to carpet the table around their feel while they stand on a full apoc sized zone mortalis board (yes, I know that is extreme but I went extreme to prove the point) Someday i'll be able to buy a couple infantry models to mix into my armies and not a single person will care (even at tournies) beyond checking out how cool they are and how well I painted them.

quote=ClockworkZion 564825 6285891 3d7990724ab94b5b62bf7bccb5c56dc7.png][No one has claimed that, in fact, we said it was never an issue or up for debate here. Please read the topic before posting next time as you're missing key information here.


So you're saying that you're not the kind of play I'd want to play with then? Good to know.


The argument as it stands regards if players should be able to assume they can bring FW to casual games unless told otherwise by the person they intend to play with instead of not being allowed to do it without permission. This would free players of the burden of being not able to invest in the cool things they like and reduce the frustration for those who play FW, move and are suddenly denied playing their army "because it's FW". The issue that is going on right now is that a vocal part of the community is forcing people to not play things and that's somehow being treated as more fair than people wanting to play things they want to play.

Seriously, the issue is banning things is actually worse for the community because it's the will of a few forced on everyone. Allowing FW doesn't change people's ability to deny games, nor a TO to set up a tournament anyway they wish, but it does open a lot of doors that are unfairly closed and locked by players who see themselves as "protecting the game" as they think it should be, instead of letting it grow and evolve naturally like it should.

 EVIL INC wrote:

Titans are made by FW (although armorcast used to make them as well) and as FW models are what is being discussed, I use a titan as an extreme example because you know as well as I do that if a "line" is not drawn, the arms race will eventually go to titans.
Tough guy sundrome? The "internet tough guy syndrome" is the internet bully. The one who insists that no one has rights but themselves constantly harasses and bullies them as you are doing. Someone come to my private residence and threatens me and my family, YES, I will defend myself. I'm sorry if you think I don't have the right to do so.

You didn't happen to notice that this thread was discussing FW units for standard 40k games? No helping you there, but its not like we told you over and over again that this thread has nothing to do with titans, only standard 40k approved FW units, of which titans are not a part of.

I'm bullying? After you explained to everyone that you would cause bodily harm to someone for disagreeing with you on a rule? Seriously? There's no sensible way to have a discussion with you when you claim someone would threaten over the use of a 40k model. You can also cut the hyperbole and putting words in peoples' mouths; nowhere has anyone said you didn't have the right to defend yourself. This discussion didn't even hint at that, you've just gone right off the rails on some nonsensical tangent.

I'm going to leave this gem out for now as discussing it won't help this discussion;

Yes, we all know you are trolling and straying from the topic. I forgive you for it. I refuse to troll myself sticking instead to truths and facts but whatever floats your boat, your welcome to do.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Titans are made by FW (although armorcast used to make them as well) and as FW models are what is being discussed, I use a titan as an extreme example because you know as well as I do that if a "line" is not drawn, the arms race will eventually go to titans.

And that's the end of your credibility on this subject. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about since anyone who's even briefly glanced at FW rules knows that titans are explicitly Apocalypse-only. Arguing that allowing unrestricted FW means titans in a 500 point game makes about as much sense as arguing that unrestricted codex units means you have to let Tyranids take Riptides and LRBTs.

Someone come to my private residence and threatens me and my family, YES, I will defend myself. I'm sorry if you think I don't have the right to do so.

Can we stop with the paranoid fantasies before this thread gets locked?

Regarding the whole Titans thing, it'd never (rarely?) occur where someone wants to bring a Titan to a non-Apoc game. It'd be like bringing a Baneblade. Both Titans and Baneblades (and Stompas and other such superheavies) are intended purely for Apocalypse games (with the exception of Baneblades and Spearhead.)

Admittedly, I read a scenario once about pitting a 1500 point normal army against 3 Baneblades, but that was a special narrative scenario with special victory conditions (and the objective for the Baneblades wasn't to slaughter the opposing army anyways, it was to reach the other end of the board with as much gun left as possible).

I remember earlier I was talking about strawman arguments somewhere. Might've been on the WoW forums, I'm not really sure. The Titan thing? THAT is a strawman argument. (also, examples of extremely rare situations are usually not so great as far as a discussion of the norm is concerned)

Evil? Why are we talking about a hypothetical scenario where someone tries to come to your house and hurt you and the people you love? Is this a regular occurrence when someone offers a game with their army including Forge World units?

And I'm gonna have to go back through the thread and see what you're talking about, because when I first read the thread a couple of days ago, it had to do with using the FW units with the "40k Approved" stamp that indicated they were intended for use in regular games of 40k, not just Apocalpyse.

 EVIL INC wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
[

Point 1 is not in dispute. TO have had the ability to change and allow/disallow items as much as they want. Titans are not a part of 40k they are apocalypse only units. The units in question have the 40k stamp of approval and while some are considered overpowered they are no more so than bringing multiple riptides.

Point 2 has also always been the case and is not in dispute. Any player my choose not to play any other player for any reason that they so rationally or irrationally decide upon.

Please stop using the titans in tournaments argument as this has never been an issue and is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

point one is indeed one of the two things being disputed. You guys are saying that you have the right to force TO to follow your personal wishes instead of their own or the communities they cater to.the units in question range from FW dreadnoughts to titans. Titans are indeed one of the units your attempting to force TO to use against their wills Models like dreads and all that have the "official" 40k stamp are not in question at all.
point two is also in dispute as you are proposing strongarming people to play games they don't want to. As I said, give me fair warning of the scale of what I might be expecting and I'll be happy to prepare for it. Ram it down my throat at the last second and I likely wont play you just because of the disrespect your showing me.

Just as we have been forced to follow others personal wishes and not use legal forgeworld units?? Okay for example there is a big difference between bringing a contemptor dreadnought and a titan. One is approved for use in 40k the other is apocalypse only. No one ever has said "lets bring a titan to a tournament" you were the first to mention that and no one is arguing for it. I personally would simply like to bring a contemptor or see some DKoK units for variety, flavor and greater strategic depth to my games.

As for strongarming you. As I said and you so nicely quoted you can choose not to play orif you would be willing to bring your disagreement to a logical discussion I would be happy to change my list to make you feel less intimidated. I have chosen not to play against local players who bring triple riptides or necron flying bakery because I am in the mood for a fun game and not a hard fought competitive game at that moment

If you would please stop putting words into others mouths and present a logical argument for why you are against forgeworld units I would appreciate it and gladly discuss how we can come to a peaceful and mutually fun compromise.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm bullying? After you explained to everyone that you would cause bodily harm to someone for disagreeing with you on a rule? Seriously? There's no sensible way to have a discussion with you when you claim someone would threaten over the use of a 40k model. You can also cut the hyperbole and putting words in peoples' mouths; nowhere has anyone said you didn't have the right to defend yourself. This discussion didn't even hint at that, you've just gone right off the rails on some nonsensical tangent.

Um... I once choked a friend of mine IRL because we disagreed over a made-up rule in minigolf that would've resulted in a total difference in score of one stroke...

And by choked, I mean grabbed his throat tightly for a couple of seconds in a massive burst of rage, before letting go in shock at what I was doing.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Titans are made by FW (although armorcast used to make them as well) and as FW models are what is being discussed, I use a titan as an extreme example because you know as well as I do that if a "line" is not drawn, the arms race will eventually go to titans.

No it won't. There is a reason FOC exist you know. Titans don't have a FOC slot.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Players have the right to turn down any game they want. You are proposing that players be forced to play you because you brought FW models whether they want to or not. Not a single person is proposing mass bannings. That is only in your imagination. the game is for the pleasure of BOTH players, not just one. if a person does not get enjoyment of being the dunce who is forced to play games they cannot win just so someone with FW models can enjoy a game, than both players are not enjoying themselves. Why are you so against the FW guy bringing items that rae halfway balanced and not overpowered in a normal game? What do you find so wrong with him asking if an opponent minds if he uses it or not? Remember, the enjoyment of playing is for BOTH players.

You didn't read my post then because I said that allowing FW doesn't change that. Actually all it does it keep it from being an automatic rejection of the FW's players options before he even gets to the store or club, which would be different than it is now in some places.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Not a single person has denied the right of players to bring cool models to show off? heck, you can BET that as soon as I was done painting and basing my armorcast reaver titan that I dragged it straight to the shop to show off and see if anyone was up for an apocalypse type game (shoulda never sold it). you can also bet that I am proud of and show off my cool conversions that feature non-GW models. As a matter of fact, I have YET to see an "anti-FW posters in this entire thread. So far, everyone is impressed with the models and are more than happy to face them so long as they have ample warning to prepare.

Showing off, and being able to field and play aren't exactly the same things. Sure my Avengers will look good when they're all painted and in a case, but I'd prefer to be able to field them from time to time.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Once more, I mention titans because it is an extreme example that you know as well as I do will end up at. You follow my logic when you say it was not designed for normal games. Those types of models that are not designed for normal games are exactly what we are discussing. Not a single person is saying you cant use a FW dreadnought to represent a GW dreadnought even in a tourney. The only things that are being discussed are the FW models that are specifically designed to be used in apoc games or to face other FW models. I mention titans because they are the most iconic example of this.

Again, titans don't use FOC, so claiming that the arms race will go there only applies if your group insists on on playing Apoc every week as a result.

Taking a FW Dread to represent a Dread is fine, but taking a Contemptor and playing it as a dread doesn't work. It's bigger and doesn't have all the same options. Not being able to field it as a Contemptor is actually a problem for the person who wants one. And what about CSM? I'm sure they'd love to be able to use the Dreadclaw instead of not getting a Drop Pod option.

 EVIL INC wrote:
this is exactly what is being debated here. Read through the thread and you will see this.

No it wasn't. Not one person was talking about tournament play and when it came up we said the TOs can do what they want, and that wasn't up for debate here, we're talking about casual play.

 EVIL INC wrote:
So your saying that you are the one who pulls te stunts of pulling out titans and such without warning and try to force me to play against my will? Then YOU are not the kind of person I want to play regardless of how cool your forgeworld models are. I much prefer treating other players with respect and dignity.

You really aren't reading my posts and I'm not sure why. No one is trying to "force" anything. The ability to know I can purchase and take FW to the local shop without it being banned before I even purchased it is the thing I've been saying. The fact you keep trying to change it into a strawman about "forcing" people to play things is just reeking of desperation because your argument has no foundation. If I have FW and you don't want to play me there is no way I can make you play (without breaking several laws that is). Me owning FW doesn't change that. Me having the ability to bring FW in and play it if anyone is up for a game doesn't change that. Even your claims, as laughable as they've been, don't change that reality.

 EVIL INC wrote:
the argument as it stands is whether or not ALL FW items be forced into use in tourneys even if the TO does not wish it to be. it is also whether to force layers to play against the same in friendly games against their wishes.

No one is trying to force things. Please give up the claim because it's a strawman argument at best and an insult at worst. As I've said multiple times, the crux of the issue is people forcing "NO FORGEWORLD EVER" on everyone else. It's not fair to have that shoved in players faces, especially when one is crying wolf about it working the other way.

 EVIL INC wrote:
I like FW models and from what I have seen of the rules they have for them, I think they are more balanced than many of the GW models and rules released. However, I think ramming it down people's throats is not the way to go with it. Allow TO and players to maintain their rights for one. Another is bring units and models that already have GW rules but just look cooler (DKoK infantry, dreadnoughts and such. Then bring in cool stuff that are not over the top or specifically designed for apoc games. For example, maybe the guard jeeps, tarantulas, rapiers and stuff like that. Allow other players to check them out and acclimatize themselves to them. personally, I think the "gentlemans game" idea someone mentioned that the FW staff do of simply asking if an opponent minds before the game and being prepared for if they say no. Allow the players to see the rules so they know what they are facing. Politeness, respect and dignity go a long way in this. those of us who are "protecting the game" are all FOR FW models. We are also all for them being added in correctly with the proper attitude and respect.

You must be new here because the claims being made by some of the anti-FW crowd ring different than you're claims here.

Also please read the entire post next time. I'm not going to keep entertaining someone who can't even take the time to read and understand the full scope of the message being conveyed, much less keeps trying to twist it to fit a strawman argument that has been shot down more than once already.

ClockworkZion wrote:You must be new here because the claims being made by some of the anti-FW crowd ring different than you're claims here.

Just like your claims are different from some of the "pro-FW crowd" - if you really want I can find you quotes from posters who are indeed expecting to be able to field their FW units without consent - or at least wish this to become true. I think it was in either the previous thread or the one before that one.

As much as I agree with you on the subject of "it's all legal", I find it appalling how one-sided you are argueing - apparently not only blind to the arguments of some posters of the group you are defending here, but even joining in by falsifying official statements yourself. Such as on page 3, where you insinuated that Jervis Jonson supposedly issued a blanket statement for all FW, when in fact it was a conditional statement limiting FW legality to GW's own Vehicle Design Rules, which at the time were available for any normal player. In other words, these rules were considered legal only because any player could have come up with them. Jervis' even specifically said "as long as", meaning this endorsement would be null and void once this requirement is no longer met.

It does your cause no favour if you keep having to resort to such trickery in order to drive your point. The same goes for Peregrine, who apparently sees nothing wrong with misquoting a "we designed this for" statement as "this is an integral part of".


We are of one mind when it comes to the practical application of Forge World and any house rules - but I really can't agree with the style you are campaigning here.

the thread is about using FW models. This with no differentiation between those designed for normal 40k games and those that are not. There are 3 sides so far. those who say no FW of any kind because it is evil, the side saying force ALL FW models on everyone regardless of their rights and those of us that I agree with.
if you wish to disagree with me, that is your right. My stance covers a few items...
1. TO have the right to disallow anything they want.
2. players do not have to play against something they don't want to.
(Both 1 and 2 are what you are having the most trouble dealing with)
3. FW models are great, look cool and have fairly balanced rules from what I have seen.
4. Models that already have 40k equivelants are not even in dispute as they are just different looking representations of things that are already there.
5. models that are designed for "normal" 40k games but not already in the codexes I only remind you og #1 and #2 and sugest that instead of arrogantly forcing them on people with the threat of violence (as I earlier mentioned I would defend against as I am not going to letsomeone just beat on or kill me because they want to use their models. it is a GAME and not worth you getting that bent out of shape), I would suggest introducing the possible opponent to the unit, it's abilities and so forth and give them the option of not facing it or seeing it used in a demo game or some other polite way to ease the player into allowing it into their comfort zone to where they would want to play against it (possibly eventually buy one of their own or some other FW model(s) of their own.
6.Remember, it is a game. With you threatening violence, telling TO what they can and cant do, plaers who they can and cant play and so forth, you are removing the enjoyment of these people from the game and possibly even turning them against 40k as a whole because of the sort of people they see as playing it. I find that you get a lot better results from treating people with dignity and respect along with being on the level with them.

 Peregrine wrote:

And that's the end of your credibility on this subject. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about since anyone who's even briefly glanced at FW rules knows that titans are explicitly Apocalypse-only. Arguing that allowing unrestricted FW means titans in a 500 point game makes about as much sense as arguing that unrestricted codex units means you have to let Tyranids take Riptides and LRBTs.
[

This is what I am talking about. You are suggesting that models such as this that are explicitly apocalypse only be used in all games, including tournaments against the TO wishes and in normal games against your opponant's wishes. I threw out random numbers but the point remains the same.

I have no reasons to not use forgeworld units. If you will notice, I am FOR their use. I would be tickled to death to face a contemptor dread just for the variety and were I rich enough to afford FW models, I would have some myself. my only issue is the idea of forcing the use of non-codex/particularly models like titans (an example) that are specifically designed to be apoc only models into tournamentsand games against the wishes of the To and players. Heck, like I said, face me with FW models designed for 'normal" games anytime you like (I would only ask to see the rules to make sure you weren't just telling me that that contempter dreadnought had 6 void shields and armor 17 all around. I would wannasee that on official letterhead.) This assuming you approached me in a polite fashion...
You- "hey, wanna game"
Me- "sure, how many points"
You- "two thousand ok, Hey, I got a few FW model I like to use, do you care if I use them?"
Me- " Cool, no problem. They aren't apoc only stuff like titans and all are they?"
You- 'nah, just a contempter dreadnought and some DkoK allies that have heavy morters" (not sure if that's a legal combo or not, just tossing out some "normal" stuff)
Me- "Cool, let me get my stuff outta the truck"

Now if it went along these lines, I might be a little upset....
You- "Get your stuff, your playing me"
Me- "uh, hello, who are you?"
you- "don't matter, get yer sh&% and lets get started"
me- "Well, that's a little rude but I havnt had a game in a month and no one else is around so ok. What are you using"
you- "Anything I da&$ well want. Got a bunch of FW stuff I'm gonna pwn ya with".
Me- " Like what so I have some sorta idea what I can l.ook forward to"
you- " I said anything I want, get yer stuff......"

You get the gist of where I'm coming from on this.

 EVIL INC wrote:
This with no differentiation between those designed for normal 40k games and those that are not.

No, you're the only one saying this. The rest of us understand that "FW is allowed" does not mean "titans are allowed", just like "codex rules are allowed" doesn't mean "Tyranids can take Riptides". Even if FW is legal you still have to follow the FW rules for which armies can take which units (just like codex armies have to follow codex rules), and no army is ever given permission to take a titan outside of Apocalypse.

5. models that are designed for "normal" 40k games but not already in the codexes I only remind you og #1 and #2 and sugest that instead of arrogantly forcing them on people with the threat of violence

Are you insane? Do you sit at home polishing your guns and fantasizing about getting to "stand your ground" and self-defense someone to death? Because all this talk about forcing stuff on people with a threat of violence is making you seem pretty delusional and in desperate need of professional help.

This is what I am talking about. You are suggesting that models such as this that are explicitly apocalypse only be used in all games, including tournaments against the TO wishes and in normal games against your opponant's wishes. I threw out random numbers but the point remains the same.

WTF. Do you know what a straw man is? Because that's a textbook example of one.

Nobody here is suggesting that Apocalypse-only items be included in normal games. You're just making up this idiotic straw man so you can pretend you're winning the forum argument. Meanwhile the real debate is over units that are approved for normal 40k within the limits of the FOC, standard missions, etc.

You get the gist of where I'm coming from on this.

Unfortunately I do. Your mind is not a pretty place.

 EVIL INC wrote:
the thread is about using FW models. This with no differentiation between those designed for normal 40k games and those that are not. There are 3 sides so far. those who say no FW of any kind because it is evil, the side saying force ALL FW models on everyone regardless of their rights and those of us that I agree with.
if you wish to disagree with me, that is your right. My stance covers a few items...
1. TO have the right to disallow anything they want.
2. players do not have to play against something they don't want to.
(Both 1 and 2 are what you are having the most trouble dealing with)
3. FW models are great, look cool and have fairly balanced rules from what I have seen.
4. Models that already have 40k equivelants are not even in dispute as they are just different looking representations of things that are already there.
5. models that are designed for "normal" 40k games but not already in the codexes I only remind you og #1 and #2 and sugest that instead of arrogantly forcing them on people with the threat of violence (as I earlier mentioned I would defend against as I am not going to letsomeone just beat on or kill me because they want to use their models. it is a GAME and not worth you getting that bent out of shape), I would suggest introducing the possible opponent to the unit, it's abilities and so forth and give them the option of not facing it or seeing it used in a demo game or some other polite way to ease the player into allowing it into their comfort zone to where they would want to play against it (possibly eventually buy one of their own or some other FW model(s) of their own.
6.Remember, it is a game. With you threatening violence, telling TO what they can and cant do, plaers who they can and cant play and so forth, you are removing the enjoyment of these people from the game and possibly even turning them against 40k as a whole because of the sort of people they see as playing it. I find that you get a lot better results from treating people with dignity and respect along with being on the level with them.

1. Again this is not in dispute TO have had the power and will continue to have the power to ban or allow anything they so choose.

2. Same as #1 any player can choose to not play against any other player for any reason they so discern.

3. AS balanced as anything in 40k is

4. Its not the representation that we would like its the ability to play the models with the forgeworld rules as oppsosed to a codex standard unit

5. This is the real issue that players have trouble with. The unfamiliarity with the units puts some ill at ease. However see points one and two any player or TO can ban or allow any unit or army that they feel like. Remember that the pro-forgeworld crowd has been forced not to play with those models for years because some players did not like them. Those who have forgeworld are simply asking to be regarded at the same level as codex units. No one has said that they want to force others to allow the use of these units.

6. As I recall you were the first in this thread to mention violence. Also you were the first to mention titans. Before you entered the conversation neither of these things were under consideration.

Gosh this thread may be even more foolish then the... wow, is it two or three previous ones in the past two weeks? Now we have FW players demanding to bring Titans in standard 40K, that's solid, I'll have to buy a Warhound now... or maybe I'll get that Reaver...

Anyway, FW is as legal as you think it is I suppose, no one is ever swayed by these threads, and I can assure you that you will garner no FINAL answer from a forum.

 EVIL INC wrote:
the thread is about using FW models. This with no differentiation between those designed for normal 40k games and those that are not. There are 3 sides so far. those who say no FW of any kind because it is evil, the side saying force ALL FW models on everyone regardless of their rights and those of us that I agree with.
if you wish to disagree with me, that is your right. My stance covers a few items...
1. TO have the right to disallow anything they want.
2. players do not have to play against something they don't want to.
(Both 1 and 2 are what you are having the most trouble dealing with)
3. FW models are great, look cool and have fairly balanced rules from what I have seen.
4. Models that already have 40k equivelants are not even in dispute as they are just different looking representations of things that are already there.
5. models that are designed for "normal" 40k games but not already in the codexes I only remind you og #1 and #2 and sugest that instead of arrogantly forcing them on people with the threat of violence (as I earlier mentioned I would defend against as I am not going to letsomeone just beat on or kill me because they want to use their models. it is a GAME and not worth you getting that bent out of shape), I would suggest introducing the possible opponent to the unit, it's abilities and so forth and give them the option of not facing it or seeing it used in a demo game or some other polite way to ease the player into allowing it into their comfort zone to where they would want to play against it (possibly eventually buy one of their own or some other FW model(s) of their own.
6.Remember, it is a game. With you threatening violence, telling TO what they can and cant do, plaers who they can and cant play and so forth, you are removing the enjoyment of these people from the game and possibly even turning them against 40k as a whole because of the sort of people they see as playing it. I find that you get a lot better results from treating people with dignity and respect along with being on the level with them.

 Peregrine wrote:

And that's the end of your credibility on this subject. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about since anyone who's even briefly glanced at FW rules knows that titans are explicitly Apocalypse-only. Arguing that allowing unrestricted FW means titans in a 500 point game makes about as much sense as arguing that unrestricted codex units means you have to let Tyranids take Riptides and LRBTs.
[

This is what I am talking about. You are suggesting that models such as this that are explicitly apocalypse only be used in all games, including tournaments against the TO wishes and in normal games against your opponant's wishes. I threw out random numbers but the point remains the same.

I have no reasons to not use forgeworld units. If you will notice, I am FOR their use. I would be tickled to death to face a contemptor dread just for the variety and were I rich enough to afford FW models, I would have some myself. my only issue is the idea of forcing the use of non-codex/particularly models like titans (an example) that are specifically designed to be apoc only models into tournamentsand games against the wishes of the To and players. Heck, like I said, face me with FW models designed for 'normal" games anytime you like (I would only ask to see the rules to make sure you weren't just telling me that that contempter dreadnought had 6 void shields and armor 17 all around. I would wannasee that on official letterhead.) This assuming you approached me in a polite fashion...
You- "hey, wanna game"
Me- "sure, how many points"
You- "two thousand ok, Hey, I got a few FW model I like to use, do you care if I use them?"
Me- " Cool, no problem. They aren't apoc only stuff like titans and all are they?"
You- 'nah, just a contempter dreadnought and some DkoK allies that have heavy morters" (not sure if that's a legal combo or not, just tossing out some "normal" stuff)
Me- "Cool, let me get my stuff outta the truck"

Now if it went along these lines, I might be a little upset....
You- "Get your stuff, your playing me"
Me- "uh, hello, who are you?"
you- "don't matter, get yer sh&% and lets get started"
me- "Well, that's a little rude but I havnt had a game in a month and no one else is around so ok. What are you using"
you- "Anything I da&$ well want. Got a bunch of FW stuff I'm gonna pwn ya with".
Me- " Like what so I have some sorta idea what I can l.ook forward to"
you- " I said anything I want, get yer stuff......"

You get the gist of where I'm coming from on this.

. . . How often do conversations like the second one happen where you live?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt1785 wrote:
Gosh this thread may be even more foolish then the... wow, is it two or three previous ones in the past two weeks? Now we have FW players demanding to bring Titans in standard 40K, that's solid, I'll have to buy a Warhound now... or maybe I'll get that Reaver...

Anyway, FW is as legal as you think it is I suppose, no one is ever swayed by these threads, and I can assure you that you will garner no FINAL answer from a forum.

Actually, the people who'd like to use FW models and rules in normal 40k games are the ones going, "What? That's not at all what we're talking about, and no one ever suggested it until you did," in regards to Titans in "standard" 40k games.

 Matt1785 wrote:
Now we have FW players demanding to bring Titans in standard 40K, that's solid, I'll have to buy a Warhound now... or maybe I'll get that Reaver...

No, we have one person posting paranoid delusions about FW players coming to his house and murdering his family if he won't play against their titan in a 500 point game. Nobody is arguing for titans in standard 40k.

FirePainter
1- That IS what is in dispute.
2. See #1
3. true that. I have not seen a lot of FW rules, but they actually don't seem so bad. you will notice that a lot of the weaknesses the models have are geared towards other FW models so even ones designed for "normal" 40k games are geared towards facing other FW models.
4. again, I have no problems so long as it is addressed in a polite manner while respecting #s 1 and 2
5. Now, your starting to sound like me. Again, so long as #s 1 and 2 are respected
6. Forcing someone to do something they do not wish to is inherently violent. Consider a woman who does not wish to have "relations", if you force her to, you are committing a violent act. If you force me to play a game I do not wish to and have made my mind up against, you will either have to have a credible threat of violence or death or physically manhandle me into it. So yes, forcing me to play you when I just don't wanna is a threat of violence.

pouncy, I gave the 2nd conversation as an extreme example of being disrespectful and rude (it would almost have to be that disrespectfull and rude before I would turn down the chance to play against, check out/check out the rules for FW models designed for normal games. Especially if they were well painted) just as I exaggerated the first example to be ultra polite.

 EVIL INC wrote:
6. Forcing someone to do something they do not wish to is inherently violent. Consider a woman who does not wish to have "relations", if you force her to, you are committing a violent act. If you force me to play a game I do not wish to and have made my mind up against, you will either have to have a credible threat of violence or death or physically manhandle me into it. So yes, forcing me to play you when I just don't wanna is a threat of violence.

And where exactly is this happening outside of your paranoid fantasies?

So nice of you to jump in after claiming you were done with these topics last time Lynata. Welcome back!

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:You must be new here because the claims being made by some of the anti-FW crowd ring different than you're claims here.

Just like your claims are different from some of the "pro-FW crowd" - if you really want I can find you quotes from posters who are indeed expecting to be able to field their FW units without consent - or at least wish this to become true. I think it was in either the previous thread or the one before that one.

Many, if not all, of same posters also said they weren't trying to force people to play against their FW stuff, but instead were trying to see it unbanned or at least not needing to beg people to let them play it. Actually I don't recall one post that said that anyone was trying to make anyone play with or against anything, but maybe I'm not reading into it enough?

 Lynata wrote:
As much as I agree with you on the subject of "it's all legal", I find it appalling how one-sided you are argueing - apparently not only blind to the arguments of some posters of the group you are defending here, but even joining in by falsifying official statements yourself. Such as on page 3, where you insinuated that Jervis Jonson supposedly issued a blanket statement for all FW, when in fact it was a conditional statement limiting FW legality to GW's own Vehicle Design Rules, which at the time were available for any normal player. In other words, these rules were considered legal only because any player could have come up with them. Jervis' even specifically said "as long as", meaning this endorsement would be null and void once this requirement is no longer met.

10+ years (1999~2009 when C:IG came out) is too long to let FW keep putting stuff out and then say "oh it's not legal NOW because they stopped using VDR". I've even addressed that in this thread, or did you skip that?

Yes, VDR was a pre-req but the thing is that when FW dropped it they were already 10 years old and counting and I'd argue too engrained into the game itself to suddenly deny en-masse. Just for fun, let's take a look at the intro from IA2 (note the red underline):

Does that work better for you? Written by Jervis Johnson, doesn't mention that it's meant as anything but a source of rules for you to use the models in 40k. It doesn't even mention VDR. Can we stop getting so hung up on the idea of VDR being the only thing that made FW valid to begin with now?

 Lynata wrote:
It does your cause no favour if you keep having to resort to such trickery in order to drive your point. The same goes for Peregrine, who apparently sees nothing wrong with misquoting a "we designed this for" statement as "this is an integral part of".

You claim "trickery" but I've never made an attempt to mislead anyone, just argue the facts as I understand them. I argued that the studio supported FW from the outset (and if you read the whole introduction which is over a couple pages long they created the studio specifically to make cool stuff from people in the main studio so it's not like this just sprang up somewhere and was integrated in, FW is made from GW and FW is GW).

I've also argued the facts from the rulebook supporting an open and more sandbox approach to the game than the anti-FW crowd says but you never comment on any of that, just your differing opinion on what Jervis mean in that intro. Go team.

 Lynata wrote:
We are of one mind when it comes to the practical application of Forge World and any house rules - but I really can't agree with the style you are campaigning here.

And I can't agree with you acting like a different interpretation is the same thing as the intentional misleading of people. As established, I gain very little from this, I'm arguing this for reasons that go beyond anything I could stand to gain personally (I gain nothing actually, my FLGS supports FW and even does group orders) but rather for people who are being forced to ignore FW because their FLGS or their club has some kind of ban against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EvilINC is now on my mental list of people I don't pay attention to lest I become rude, or invoke the Yellow Triangle of Friendship. It's clear he is a) not reading the actual thread, b) will continue to argue things regardless of what the facts are and c) seems to live someplace magical where people can demand things of others, no questions asked and force them to physically unpack their stuff, build list, deploy the army, roll dice, move bits and bobs around the board and more, against their will.

 EVIL INC wrote:

6. Forcing someone to do something they do not wish to is inherently violent. Consider a woman who does not wish to have "relations", if you force her to, you are committing a violent act. If you force me to play a game I do not wish to and have made my mind up against, you will either have to have a credible threat of violence or death or physically manhandle me into it. So yes, forcing me to play you when I just don't wanna is a threat of violence.

I have to say, after reading all of these posts, that I'm glad Evil Inc is not at my store. I can just see the conversation he would take:

Me: Hey, how about a nice game? 2000 points. Oh, I have a Storm Eagle as my flyer. Is that cool with you?
EVIL INC: OH my gawd, how can you force me to do this!? Now I have to play a game with you because you asked! I hate this. I should defend myself. What next, are you going to hit on my wife, and smack my daughter!?
Me: Hey, it's cool, I'll play someone else...
EVIL INC: No, you have made me play a game I don't want! Fist Fight! Food Fight! Everyone see how he's doing violence to me!

Sorry if that is a bit too satirical. But if someone kept using arguments like his over and over even though everyone else says it's not a problem, I would just wait for the next player in line and ask THEM for a game. I wouldn't even bother with the "Oh, okay I can use something else."

 EVIL INC wrote:
FirePainter
1- That IS what is in dispute.
2. See #1
3. true that. I have not seen a lot of FW rules, but they actually don't seem so bad. you will notice that a lot of the weaknesses the models have are geared towards other FW models so even ones designed for "normal" 40k games are geared towards facing other FW models.
4. again, I have no problems so long as it is addressed in a polite manner while respecting #s 1 and 2
5. Now, your starting to sound like me. Again, so long as #s 1 and 2 are respected
6. Forcing someone to do something they do not wish to is inherently violent. Consider a woman who does not wish to have "relations", if you force her to, you are committing a violent act. If you force me to play a game I do not wish to and have made my mind up against, you will either have to have a credible threat of violence or death or physically manhandle me into it. So yes, forcing me to play you when I just don't wanna is a threat of violence.

pouncy, I gave the 2nd conversation as an extreme example of being disrespectful and rude (it would almost have to be that disrespectfull and rude before I would turn down the chance to play against, check out/check out the rules for FW models designed for normal games. Especially if they were well painted) just as I exaggerated the first example to be ultra polite.

Setting aside the whole weird analogies you've been making equating a tabletop game with bodily harm and rape...

Everyone in the, quote, "pro-Forge World," unquote group has been saying repeatedly that if anyone doesn't want to play a game against Forge World stuff, they don't have to. They've been saying that tournament organizers are free to make any rules they want for their tournament.

The argument they're making, isn't so much about Forge World being forced on people, but trying to change the default assumption of 40k gamers from, "No Forgeworld Allowed" to "Appropriate Forgeworld Allowed," while keeping the caveat of, "Everyone can choose who and what they want to play or not play against."

They're talking about hoping to have it so that instead of having to get special permission to use 40k-approved Forgeworld models in casual games, they'd be allowed to use them unless their opponent specifically declines it.

Essentially, reversing the onus.