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 Stormdrake wrote:
Can never understand how people can love 40K so much and then spend so much time trying to deny all of the other books, models, and rules that are added by the company.

Welcome to the non-vocal majority.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
It kinda funny. My group has made a scenario called 'Lords of War"
2500 points, one super heavy that cant be more th 25% of your points. Goal is to kill the other person super heavy.

That's how the slot works in the Heresy game too. Well the 25% thing I mean. It also doesn't open up below 2k. You'd need to play over 5k to take a Reaver for instance.


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 Stormdrake wrote:
Can never understand how people can love 40K so much and then spend so much time trying to deny all of the other books, models, and rules that are added by the company.

It upsets their competitive edge. Some people can't accept 40k as a narrative tool set for playing fun games and instead have to have it as a competitive ruleset that is meant for tournament play (and play all their games like that) and hate anything that doesn't fit into their narrowly defined version of what 40k "is" or "should" be regardless of what the creators state.

So this was posted. Take it as you will.

Can't wait until my next game with my buddy, when he lines up his Chaos boys and I line my marines up, then slap my Baneblade on the table.

G'night.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
Can't wait until my next game with my buddy, when he lines up his Chaos boys and I line my marines up, then slap my Baneblade on the table.

G'night.

I wouldn't slap models onto the table, they're too expensive to treat that poorly.

That said, any "friend" who did that without warning wouldn't be classified as a "friend" anymore. Players need to communicate before the game on what kind of game they're looking for so they both get the most out of it, not just one.

Honestly, as much as I'd like to use my Baneblade more, I'd be much more interested in getting to use FW's apoc units. Most of them are pretty underwhelming in Apoc, but I can see them being pretty good in normal 40k. Malcadors, Macharius, CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT and so on. There's a lot of ~300 points "superheavies" which are a hell of a lot weaker than a Wraithknight which I'd like to buy and get some good use out of.

As an expansion, this will no doubt be ignored by the tournament and in-store scenes while being embraced by the garage set the way other expansions have. However, historically, the expansions are where GW first releases and then fine tunes rules that work their way into the following edition. Planetstrike gave us fortifications, Battle Missions the structure for which special missions are released in 6e materials, FW expansions gave us the precursor to the flyer rules, Crusade of Fire gave us Fighter Aces (which were later released in the DFtS compendium.) If I had to guess, I'd say this will be a casual expansion for 6th, but become a permanent part of the FoC for 7th. As is always stated, GW is a model company, not a rules company, and nothing sells models like making them an important part of your balanced breakfast.

But you shouldn't use your superheavies in normal games. Most of them are way too powerful for a normal game, especially if your opponent doesn't know they're coming. So you can only use them when you ask your opponent "hey, can I use my Baneblade" today, and you don't need a $50 book to do that. This is a product that has no apparent reason to exist besides GW getting more of your money.

Exactly. A simple house rule between two gaming friends that has been getting made since FW first made superheavy models (really, even way back to Armorcast stuff) gets to magically save 50 dollars. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 Stormdrake wrote:
Can never understand how people can love 40K so much and then spend so much time trying to deny all of the other books, models, and rules that are added by the company.

One can love 40k and not love GW. That, my good sir, is the key distinction.

GW plays on it's clients love to turn a ridiculous profit. And that is evil.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Stormdrake wrote:
Can never understand how people can love 40K so much and then spend so much time trying to deny all of the other books, models, and rules that are added by the company.

It upsets their competitive edge. Some people can't accept 40k as a narrative tool set for playing fun games and instead have to have it as a competitive ruleset that is meant for tournament play (and play all their games like that) and hate anything that doesn't fit into their narrowly defined version of what 40k "is" or "should" be regardless of what the creators state.

I wish the people at my LGS understood that the 40k ruleset as written isn't intended for competitive play. I only play 40k casually and it can be fun when you view it as something that is kinda funny to play, but something you shouldn't take seriously. I would personally love to see the game fix its rules and be a bit more competitive minded, but at the same time try and be fluffy. I know GW won't do that, but with the number of people playing 40k dwindling hopefully the fluff players will come out of the wood works to play at my LGS.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Stormdrake wrote:
Can never understand how people can love 40K so much and then spend so much time trying to deny all of the other books, models, and rules that are added by the company.

One can love 40k and not love GW. That, my good sir, is the key distinction.

GW plays on it's clients love to turn a ridiculous profit. And that is evil.

Except that doesn't make sense, since you aren't loving 40k if you ignore all the other stuff for it.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Except that doesn't make sense, since you aren't loving 40k if you ignore all the other stuff for it.

Sure you can. You can love most of the game while still hating the mediocre expansions and supplements GW keeps throwing out as fast as they can at $50 each.

I love my local football team, but I am quite capable of pointing out when certain players are turning in sub-standard performances and the manager is employing poor tactics.

 Troike wrote:
Oooh, nice. This Escalation thing will be coming sooner than I thought. Interested to see exactly what it'll look like.

This could actually be referring to two different expansions, if the rumours are anything to go by. The super-heavies would tie into the Escalation thing, while the Aquila Storngpoint could tie into the Stronghold Assault thing that's been mentioned a few times in the rumours. We'll find out for sure pretty soon, though.

I already found out because I got my White Dwarf today in the mail. : D

Escalation lets you use superheavies and gargantuan creatures in regular games of 40k. It's an expansion. Every army has access to one or more superheavies/gargantuan creatures.

Stronghold Assault is an expansion that lets you take more fortifications than normal, with the caveat that it has to be a certain mixture of fortification pieces. It also contains new rules for using buildings.

Neither of them use Apocalypse stuff like Strategic Assets, different types of Formations, Finest Hours and such.

Also, starting on December 1st and lasting until Christmas Day, they're going to be doing something called an Advent Calendar, which has something to do with downloading Digital Editions products. There'll be a new one available each day. And apparently on the 25th they're gonna bring back a "much-loved Warhammer 40,000 character." That's not an exact quote, as I think the grammar they used phrased it more like, "much-loved character from Warhammer 40,000." Something like that.

There's no mention of new WH40k model kits.


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Oh, and on the 30th, Escalation, Stronghold Assault, the LotR stuff are listed as going on Pre-order in the calendar at the back of WD. Oddly, that's also listed for the 7th of December.

I will just say now, my faith that gw can somehow balance superheavies for 7th edition to be balanced is zero. Their game plan lately is "lets copy warmachines/hordes as closly as possible" because their seeing the 150 dollar gargantuals and colossal being bought quite a bit. And if you think about it its the last thing they really have to boost 40k sales. Everyone owns a marine army already, they have had for years their main armies goodies, and you can only remake so many things before they start being inferior sculpts to the old and lose you money.

I am predicting it right now. Just like vehicle spam was in 4th, anyone not running one of these super expensive units in 7th wont be competitive. They will bend over backwards to make these THE things your army just has to have.

 Orock wrote:
I will just say now, my faith that gw can somehow balance superheavies for 7th edition to be balanced is zero. Their game plan lately is "lets copy warmachines/hordes as closly as possible" because their seeing the 150 dollar gargantuals and colossal being bought quite a bit. And if you think about it its the last thing they really have to boost 40k sales. Everyone owns a marine army already, they have had for years their main armies goodies, and you can only remake so many things before they start being inferior sculpts to the old and lose you money.

I am predicting it right now. Just like vehicle spam was in 4th, anyone not running one of these super expensive units in 7th wont be competitive. They will bend over backwards to make these THE things your army just has to have.

These are supposed to be expansions, like Planetstrike or Spearhead (which allows Superheavies as well) or Cities of Death or whatnot.

 Pouncey wrote:
These are supposed to be expansions, like Planetstrike or Spearhead (which allows Superheavies as well) or Cities of Death or whatnot.

See previous comment about GW incorporating expansion elements into the core game in later editions. For example, Planetstrike fortifications are now core rules in 6th, and flyers have been moved from Apocalypse into the core rules (though with some modifications). It would not be surprising if 7th edition moves superheavies into the core game.

 Orock wrote:
I will just say now, my faith that gw can somehow balance superheavies for 7th edition to be balanced is zero.

I'm not so sure about that, myself. There's been a real effort to balance the superheavies for 6th. They gave the Thunderhawk rear armor of 10 and they've recosted the Baneblade variants to reflect their damage output. Sure the Baneblades have 9 HP - but at 14/13/12 they cost about as much as 3 tanks with the same survivability and damage. This feels just like flyers did. Scary and unbalancing at first, but then just another part of the game.

And apparently on the 25th they're gonna bring back a "much-loved Warhammer 40,000 character." That's not an exact quote, as I think the grammar they used phrased it more like, "much-loved character from Warhammer 40,000." Something like that.

It's about time they brought back Cypher. They've only been building up to him for the last year.

Massawyrm wrote:
There's been a real effort to balance the superheavies for 6th. They gave the Thunderhawk rear armor of 10 and they've recosted the Baneblade variants to reflect their damage output. Sure the Baneblades have 9 HP - but at 14/13/12 they cost about as much as 3 tanks with the same survivability and damage. This feels just like flyers did. Scary and unbalancing at first, but then just another part of the game.

Wait, so let me get this straight:

Apocalypse: Thunderhawk is massive overpriced and a very limited threat, Baneblade/Shadowsword variants are massively overpriced compared to titans.
Apocalypse 2.0: Thunderhawk gets rear AV 10 to ensure it gets shot down before delivering its cargo, Baneblade/Shadowsword variants get a point increase and lose the ability to get AV 14 on the side, and titans stay overpowered.

How exactly is this supposed to inspire faith in GW's ability to balance superheavies?

 Peregrine wrote:

Wait, so let me get this straight:

Apocalypse: Thunderhawk is massive overpriced and a very limited threat, Baneblade/Shadowsword variants are massively overpriced compared to titans.
Apocalypse 2.0: Thunderhawk gets rear AV 10 to ensure it gets shot down before delivering its cargo, Baneblade/Shadowsword variants get a point increase and lose the ability to get AV 14 on the side, and titans stay overpowered.

How exactly is this supposed to inspire faith in GW's ability to balance superheavies?

Most of the Baneblade variants prices went down into the low 400s. The Warhound Titan has the same armor and HP and pays an extra 200-300pts for its 2 void shields and extra weapon. The Void shields are just an AV12 HP that can regenerate on a 5+. So over the course of three turns of fire, you'll have to glance it 13 times instead of 9 to kill it. Not too gross. Will be interesting to see if they are recosted/rebalanced for Escalation.

 Peregrine wrote:
.
Apocalypse 2.0: Thunderhawk gets rear AV 10 to ensure it gets shot down before delivering its cargo, Baneblade/Shadowsword variants get a point increase and lose the ability to get AV 14 on the side, and titans stay overpowered.

How exactly is this supposed to inspire faith in GW's ability to balance superheavies?

If your using a thunderhawk to transport troops your doing it wrong. Even back in the days of fliers in apoc only they would get shot down the moment it hovered. The most effective way I've seen a TH used is to give it bombs, the d-str cannon, drop bombs every turn, and keep it moving! Use it harras, and strafe ground targets, which it does surprisingly well.

And no TH's aren't invincible they take damage and get shot down, due to all the fire it attracts. Everyone loves destroying a super heavy. Especially the people who are too poor to afford one themselves. I watched a guys warhound get desroyed in one round of shooting, from people who couldn't afford one. And for the rest of the apoc game, he got nonstop crap from those players telling him he "wasted his money", and "it's not worth it's points". When the guy who was well off didn't care he "wasted his money" as he can afford it.

Just something to think about.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
Can't wait until my next game with my buddy, when he lines up his Chaos boys and I line my marines up, then slap my Baneblade on the table.

G'night.

This is the perfect example of why I hate Apoc/Superheavies/Forgeworld. It's an excuse for people to just steamroll the opponent. Why would I ever play a game like that? That's not fun.

At least in my area, there will continue to be an anti-Apoc/Forgeworld/Superheavies attitude as long as players like this exist.

Oh, so I get to pay $50 for a book that lets me use my big stupid models in game of 40k? Something I could've done by asking "Hey, dude, can I use my big stupid model in a regular game?"? Golly Jee, Mr. Kirby, where can I preorder?!

 Peregrine wrote:

Massawyrm wrote:
There's been a real effort to balance the superheavies for 6th. They gave the Thunderhawk rear armor of 10 and they've recosted the Baneblade variants to reflect their damage output. Sure the Baneblades have 9 HP - but at 14/13/12 they cost about as much as 3 tanks with the same survivability and damage. This feels just like flyers did. Scary and unbalancing at first, but then just another part of the game.

Wait, so let me get this straight:

Apocalypse: Thunderhawk is massive overpriced and a very limited threat, Baneblade/Shadowsword variants are massively overpriced compared to titans.
Apocalypse 2.0: Thunderhawk gets rear AV 10 to ensure it gets shot down before delivering its cargo, Baneblade/Shadowsword variants get a point increase and lose the ability to get AV 14 on the side, and titans stay overpowered.

How exactly is this supposed to inspire faith in GW's ability to balance superheavies?

Titans can be locked in combat by "assaulting out of deepstrike" Daemonettes and kept in combat for 2-3 turns reliably without doing anything. Baneblades and Shadowsword-class tanks can't be dealt this deathblow.

Titans now come with a bubblewrap Tax.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
These are supposed to be expansions, like Planetstrike or Spearhead (which allows Superheavies as well) or Cities of Death or whatnot.

See previous comment about GW incorporating expansion elements into the core game in later editions. For example, Planetstrike fortifications are now core rules in 6th, and flyers have been moved from Apocalypse into the core rules (though with some modifications). It would not be surprising if 7th edition moves superheavies into the core game.

If they do I'm betting it'll be Lords of War style like the Heresy game does (which works really well. Want to play a Reaver? That's going to be a large game you're playing!).

I can't see a problem with it as long as there is a system in place to keep it from being dropped into small games.


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 Red Comet wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Stormdrake wrote:
Can never understand how people can love 40K so much and then spend so much time trying to deny all of the other books, models, and rules that are added by the company.

It upsets their competitive edge. Some people can't accept 40k as a narrative tool set for playing fun games and instead have to have it as a competitive ruleset that is meant for tournament play (and play all their games like that) and hate anything that doesn't fit into their narrowly defined version of what 40k "is" or "should" be regardless of what the creators state.

I wish the people at my LGS understood that the 40k ruleset as written isn't intended for competitive play. I only play 40k casually and it can be fun when you view it as something that is kinda funny to play, but something you shouldn't take seriously. I would personally love to see the game fix its rules and be a bit more competitive minded, but at the same time try and be fluffy. I know GW won't do that, but with the number of people playing 40k dwindling hopefully the fluff players will come out of the wood works to play at my LGS.

I agree, the game is hands down better when we stop treating it like a tournament game. I'm not saying tournaments can't or shouldn't be run for 40k, but that the rules as they are don't work for that.

Really, Pouncey? Every army? What do Sisters get? I'm eager to know...

Anyway, preorder on 30th and release on 7th makes perfect sense. Games Workshop always do their major release drop on the first Saturday of the month, unless the month starts on a saturday (when it's the second). This is so people have three days to a week to preorder stuff and make arrangements to get to the store for release day.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Really, Pouncey? Every army? What do Sisters get? I'm eager to know...

I'm betting on whatever the IG get.....

 Stormdrake wrote:
Can never understand how people can love 40K so much and then spend so much time trying to deny all of the other books, models, and rules that are added by the company.

Because people are both disgruntled and yet addicted.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Really, Pouncey? Every army? What do Sisters get? I'm eager to know...

Anyway, preorder on 30th and release on 7th makes perfect sense. Games Workshop always do their major release drop on the first Saturday of the month, unless the month starts on a saturday (when it's the second). This is so people have three days to a week to preorder stuff and make arrangements to get to the store for release day.

That's what they said. Every army. They didn't go into specifics as to who gets access to what.

"Escalation brings titanic war machines and monsters to Warhammer 40,000 in a new way, enabling you to field certain Super-heavy units in your army in a new Force Organization slot entitled 'Lords of War.' Each army has access to at least one Lord of War, and some have several."

I don't think they're allowing every superheavy/gargantuan though. They specifically mention that there will be rules in Escalation for:

"16 Lords of War [...] each of which is either a super-heavy tank, flyer or walker [...] or a gargantuan creature [...] with a datasheet containing the full rules and points values for each."

[For the guy saying he's gonna plop down a Baneblade in his next game, there's already an expansion where you can do that. It's called Spearhead.]

Again, from the article in WD, there will be, in addition to the datasheets,

"11 scenarios to use them in [including] eight Altar of War missions that you can roll for instead of the Eternal War missions in the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and three Gauntlet Challenge Missions, which showcase the destructive power of these Lords of War with missions such as Dead City Rampage and When Titans Clash."

Apparently there's also gonna be a bunch of artwork, photos, and fiction interspersed into the book.

No new 40k models outside of a "Character Series" duo from Forge World are mentioned, so whatever the Sisters get, probably already exists.

I expect what Sisters are getting is something copied from another Imp faction.