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 Psienesis wrote:

squidhills wrote:
I just want to get in here and back up Knas Ser's assertion that Nazi imagery and themes (along with Catholic ones) were an influence on the IoM. It's true. What he says about how the Nazis pulled together a lot of things (fear of the other, racial and ideological purity, rampant militarism) and made the resulting product their own is spot-on. Yes, other totalitarian regimes have killed more people, or feared the other just as much, and so on... but the Nazis were the first to do it all at once, and to do it with such iconic style. I'm not trying to say the Nazis were good or anything, because they weren't. Everybody sane can agree on that. But their style of totalitarianism had a flavor all its own, and that flavor is present in the IoM.

And yes, the Roman themes are there, too. Its hard to use Anglicized Latin in all your governmental names and not evoke some kind of Roman feeling. The IoM has a very strong Late Roman Empire vibe going... its a big mess that has overstretched itself militarily and is being taxed by all the enemies it has. Its teetering on the verge of collapse. It's grimdark.

But GW didn't stop with Roman themes. They layered the Nazis on top (kill the mutant, purge the unclean) and then slathered everything in a wet, runny garnish of Catholocism (the Ecclesiarchy and the power that it holds over everyone, no matter how highly-placed they may be... oh, and burn the heretic). The result is a faction that can only be considered the good guys because everyone else in the setting (prior to the Tau) is so much worse.

And that's what GW was going for.

I know its fashionable on the internet to call 'Nazi' anytime somebody doesn't like something else, or says something somebody disagrees with, but Knas Ser isn't being fashionable. He called Nazis because, in 40K, there are Nazis. Not generic 'totalitarians'. Nazis.

Specifically, Catholic Space Nazis who work for Roman sounding governmental departments.

Find me evidence that the Inquisition is a specifically-Nazi-inspired element and not just every "secret police" organization ever, such as the KGB/KDB, FSB, EK, Statsi, Agentes in Rebus, Frumentarii, etc.

No. Because I think the obvious influence for the Inquisition is, well, the Inquisition. Yes, perhaps a dash of Gestapo because they're larger, more secretive, etc. But clearly the Inquisition derive from the Spanish Inquisition of popular imagination. You keep taking this position of demanding proof that element X in the IoM is exclusive to Nazism. Well, that's not going to happen because there is no single element that is unique to a specific real world group (except perhaps their name). Even if they had Swastikas in the artwork, you might still say: "prove it's not derived from the similar Buddhist symbol or the almost identical one in Hinduism or Jainism". Sure, in isolation it could be. But the point I've twice made is that when you get combinations of elements, groups of elements, it starts to look like inspiration. And clearly I'm not the only one that notices this. And really, for British people born in the late 1960s / early 1970s, which do you think is going to be the most likely source of secret police inspiration - the Nazis, or as you suggest, the Agentes in Rebus and the Frumentarii?

You seem really determined not merely to not see what others notice, but to outright prove that Nazi imagery and ideas were not an influence. You've skipped over a number of my points so I'll repeat - there is no way that anyone in Britain at that time, would create all these parallels without being aware of the similarities. It's just not possible for the artists and writers to have not noticed that the work they were creating was so very similar in many ways to something so very significant that affected so many in Europe so recently. You can talk about the Frumentarii as much as you like, but there are specific combinations of elements that constitute Nazism and many of them are present in the IoM together. If 90% of the posters here were to create a setting with secret police in it, racial purity, militaristic society, imperial imagery, autocratic rule under a powerful figurehead, would they more likely be influenced by the Nazis for their development of that, or the Frumentarii? (Who were secret agents in Ancient Rome for the 90% of posters here wondering who they Hell they are).

Why are you so determined to reject Nazism as an influence on the IoM when there are so many striking parallels to it and in the same combinations?

No. Because I think the obvious influence for the Inquisition is, well, the Inquisition. Yes, perhaps a dash of Gestapo because they're larger, more secretive, etc. But clearly the Inquisition derive from the Spanish Inquisition of popular imagination. You keep taking this position of demanding proof that element X in the IoM is exclusive to Nazism. Well, that's not going to happen because there is no single element that is unique to a specific real world group (except perhaps their name).

Then maybe people should stop making the specific claim rather than the general claim. Stop saying "Nazis" when "Totalitarian societies" is what is meant.

Yes, the Holy Ordos of the Emperor's Inquisition is obviously based on the Spanish Inquisition (there is even an Inquisitor Torquemada in 40K.... just as there was IRL). What is not obvious about them is a specific link/inspiration/element tying them specifically to the Gestapo.

And the reason I keep doing this is to point out that 40K has a much richer tapestry of influences rather than the tired Nazi tropes... which have, in the main, been misattributed. The Iron Cross? People like to claim it's a Nazi thing... it's not. Predates the Nazis by decades. The Commissars? Not Nazi at all, those are Soviet. Secret police and purges? Not restricted to Nazis (as I pointed out in my previous post).

Yeah, the Nazis were bad. Guess what? Human beings are bad. Evil is not constrained to a German political party of the early 20th century.

The Imperium is far from Nazis. Its more of a totalitarianist background with strong emphasis on nationality and militarism.

 Psienesis wrote:

OK, how's this: The Imperium kills people for having the wrong DNA.

Find me a totalitarian regime that did that that wasn't the Nazis.

The Istanbul Pogrom (1950s)
Ne Win's purges in Burma (1962)
Idi Amin's purge of ethnic Asian/Indian population in Uganda (1970s)
The anti-Sikh Riots of 1984 (Delhi, India)
Saddam Hussein's purge of the Khurdish people (1980s/1990s)
The Serb-Croat War (1990s) whereby Serbian forces forcibly expelled Croats and non-Serbs, either by murder or forced deportation.
The LTTE of Sri Lanka ordered the removal of all Muslim people from the northern provinces (some 65,000 people). Those who did not leave were killed. (October 1990)
The Rwandan Genocide of 1994.

Actually, whilst squidhills may have overreached very slightly in saying no other regime has done this (not sure), they're not too far out and most of your examples are not comparable. In nearly all of the cases above, the racial divisions are actually aligned with political and territorial allegiances. Sadam's pursuit of the Kurds was not motivated by beliefs in keeping racial purity, but because the Khurdish people occupied valuable land and acted as a political block that was opposed to him. Ditto most of the other instances on your list. The Jewish people of Germany were the most unjustly picked victims - they were German. As German as any non-Jewish neighbour in most cases. And then suddenly there were knocks on the door, questions about ancestry before marriage. I don't think any of the instances you list above have had comparable sustained programs of racial persecution. I'm not familiar with the Istanbul item you list, but I know many of the others do not fit this at all. I'm fairly familiar with the (ongoing) situation in Serbia. It's a case of populations in specific areas being ruled by other areas and it falls out along ethnic lines. It is a great tragedy and I do not want what I'm writing here to in any way imply it is not; but it is primarily territorial, not about racial purity. You list the Rwandan Genocide. Again, these are separate groups, separate political entities and socially divided. There's nothing comparable to what was done to the Jews in Germany when people fully integrated into society of many generations, suddenly found themselves victims of a drive for racial "purity".

Squidhills may have overreached slightly in saying it was actually unique to Nazism (it does occur elsewhere and anti-Semitism has sadly been around a long time), but you have overreached far more in your attempts to disprove any connection to Nazism. The purges of mutants et al, emphasis on racial purity, a belief in creation of genetically superior humans is by far more closely parallelled by Nazism, than anything else.

 Psienesis wrote:

Now please, stop pretending the Nazi overtones aren't there. I know you dig the IoM. Lots of us do. But recognizing that the IoM is inspired by a horrible evil group is not the same thing as liking that horrible evil group. You can hate the Nazis and still like the IoM. Pretending that the Nazi overtones aren't there is like pretending the IoM are the good guys in the setting, when they are really just the least-evil guys (and now that Tau are on the scene, that's not necessarily true anymore...maybe).

You are very much off-base in why you think I'm arguing this.

Actually, to be honest, I was also thinking it was some kind of fan-thing for the IoM and an objection to it being likened to the Nazi ideals. The IoM is a horrible, horrible place not at all to be lauded, so I see no reason to reject the obvious influence. But if this is not the reason you are so determined to reject Nazism as an influence, then what is?


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 Psienesis wrote:

No. Because I think the obvious influence for the Inquisition is, well, the Inquisition. Yes, perhaps a dash of Gestapo because they're larger, more secretive, etc. But clearly the Inquisition derive from the Spanish Inquisition of popular imagination. You keep taking this position of demanding proof that element X in the IoM is exclusive to Nazism. Well, that's not going to happen because there is no single element that is unique to a specific real world group (except perhaps their name).

Then maybe people should stop making the specific claim rather than the general claim. Stop saying "Nazis" when "Totalitarian societies" is what is meant.

I think it's pretty clear that I actually do know the difference between Nazism and the more general Totalitarianism and I have been very explicit in stating that I mean the former. The above is a strawman. I never raised the Inquisition as something drawn from Nazism. All the things I listed were elsewhere. You then demanded to know how the Inquisition was derived from Nazism without me raising it as such, and so I replied quite openly that I didn't think it was, that it was drawn from the Spanish Inquisition. Now you try to turn that into an argument that if it wasn't from Nazism then I should stop talking about Nazism? Strawman to say that my argument at all depended on the Inquisition. You raised it. I said it didn't apply to my argument. You now say my argument is invalid because. Silly.

Why are you stuck on this? Why do you keep telling me I mean one thing when I have said very clearly multiple times, I mean another. Do I really come across as someone who knows so little of politics and history that you know better what I'm talking about than I do? I don't believe so. So why keep doing it?

 Psienesis wrote:

Yes, the Holy Ordos of the Emperor's Inquisition is obviously based on the Spanish Inquisition (there is even an Inquisitor Torquemada in 40K.... just as there was IRL). What is not obvious about them is a specific link/inspiration/element tying them specifically to the Gestapo

I'm pretty sure most of us are aware that Torquemada was the most infamous member of the Spanish Inquisition, thanks! No-one raised the Inquisition as derived from the Nazis except for you who has apparently done so purely so you can knock it down and say we're wrong because it's not true. You know how much knocking down your own arguments diminishes mine? 'Not at all', is the answer.

 Psienesis wrote:
And the reason I keep doing this is to point out that 40K has a much richer tapestry of influences rather than the tired Nazi tropes... which have, in the main, been misattributed. The Iron Cross? People like to claim it's a Nazi thing... it's not. Predates the Nazis by decades. The Commissars? Not Nazi at all, those are Soviet. Secret police and purges? Not restricted to Nazis (as I pointed out in my previous post).

No-one ever said that the Imperium was derived only from Nazism and was a perfect, slavish allegory. That's just another strawman from you. If you're actually reading my posts, you'll be aware that I've personally listed a number of other elements. But just because you have a personal a priori desire for the IoM to not have drawn influences from Nazism, that does not make it so. I don't see why you feel it diminishes the IoM to concede that significant elements of it are drawn from Nazism, but they stand out a mile to others of us.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, the Nazis were bad. Guess what? Human beings are bad. Evil is not constrained to a German political party of the early 20th century.

And now we have a trilogy of strawmen. No-one said or implied the above, either.


I'm going to summarise what I think has happened here. I said I saw Nazi ideology and imagery as a significant influence in the IoM. You assumed I was an ignorant person and decided to correct me by pointing out your superior knowledge and understanding and saying actually, it's totalitarianism, not Nazism. It turned out that I actually did mean Nazism and backed it up with numerous stylistic influences and elements that whilst they exist elsewhere, the combination of them is Nazism and that these same combinations are present through the IoM. You couldn't let it go and you're now on a crusade to prove that Nazism wasn't an influence. This is how I read your increasingly strident insistence that it wasn't, despite numerous parallels and it being by far THE most present example of all these things in the minds of all Europeans of my generation. Really, suggesting they might have more likely drawn on the Frumentarii than some other group... It's bordering on preposterous.

I mean you clearly think you're smarter than the people you are talking with if you're posting things like "people think the commissars are not Nazi, but Soviet". I'd bet a fair bit that pretty much everyone reading this thread knew that. I certainly have never thought they come from Nazi Germany. They're Soviet, obviously. This is the problem. You haven't read what I wrote. You've seen me say "Nazi" and you've gone in your head: "oh, here are some young ignorant fools that think Commisars are Nazi. I'll correct them.". Well we're not. I don't think anyone here is. We said Nazi because we meant Nazi and none of us said that every element (including Commisars) was from Nazism. And if you'd just said, "also some Soviet influence - the Commisars", everyone would have nodded in agreement. But instead you're fixed on saying: Not Nazi! Not Nazi!


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 Swastakowey wrote:
The Imperium is far from Nazis. Its more of a totalitarianist background with strong emphasis on nationality and militarism.

It's very odd to say something is less like X and more like Y, when X is a subset of Y. That's like saying my pet is less like an Irish Wolfhound and more like a dog. Especially when you then go on to say: "more like a dog with these two traits that Irish Wolfhounds are well-known for".

In addition to the traits in your list, btw, we can also add from the IoM the following: a near-deified leader, inspections for racial purity, imperialistic imagery, propaganda about thousand-year reigns, stylistic parallels by the artists. And the creation of a super-race. In fact, you know what's an almost specific way of saying Totalitarianism with all those things? Nazism.

You're again responding to a broad topic that my original point was not directed at. If you scroll back up in the thread, you will note that I was responding, directly, to the statement that the Inquisition was, specifically, Nazi-influenced.

No-one raised the Inquisition as derived from the Nazis except for you who has apparently done so purely so you can knock it down and say we're wrong because it's not true. You know how much knocking down your own arguments diminishes mine? '

This is flat-out false, as it was this statement that I was originally responding to. Go back and read page 2.

knas ser wrote:
They're Soviet, obviously.

An btw has much more of Nazi/ColdWar propaganda than of real thing.

 Psienesis wrote:
You're again responding to a broad topic that my original point was not directed at. If you scroll back up in the thread, you will note that I was responding, directly, to the statement that the Inquisition was, specifically, Nazi-influenced.

No-one raised the Inquisition as derived from the Nazis except for you who has apparently done so purely so you can knock it down and say we're wrong because it's not true. You know how much knocking down your own arguments diminishes mine? '

This is flat-out false, as it was this statement that I was originally responding to. Go back and read page 2.

Which comment? The one someone made about them being "a weird amalgam of Spanish Inquisition and Space-Nazis"? They probably added the part about "Space-Nazis" because of the whole purge the mutant and the alien. Again - the racial purity aspect. Seems not an unsupportable statement to say they're Spanish Inquisition with a bit of Nazi.

You might want to start quoting the people you're replying to if they're further up the thread. Because this is the second time you have followed one of my posts with your own reply but later turn out to be replying to someone much earlier on. Quotes help things remain clear.


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chyron wrote:

knas ser wrote:
They're Soviet, obviously.

An btw has much more of Nazi/ColdWar propaganda than of real thing.

True. I did phrase something somewhere as being the popular image of something, but it gets lost in the shuffle. Yeah - a lot of the influences, particularly the commisars, are influences based on what people think something was like, rather than how they actually were. You're absolutely correct.

That's what I was responding to.

Racial Purity is not uniquely Nazi. We had Racial Purity-proponents and proto-eugenics groups in 19th century America, both before and after the Civil War.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's what I was responding to.

Racial Purity is not uniquely Nazi. We had Racial Purity-proponents and proto-eugenics groups in 19th century America, both before and after the Civil War.

Yes. Very well aware of that. Had them in Britain also. George Bernard Shaw was a proponent of eugenics. But yet again, you slice out one specific element and base an entire argument on the fact that the element sometimes occurs elsewhere. When you should know full well because it's been said many times, that it is the specific combination of elements that resonates. If I said I was eating a chocolate sponge cake you might suddenly seize on the eggs in the recipe and say: "but look, eggs are also used in other cakes. You actually mean to say you're eating a cake". To which I respond "No, it also has chocolate in it". Followed by a post from you saying: "But a boston cream pie has chocolate in it. You mean you're eating a cake".

These proto-eugenics groups in 19th Century America. Were they government enforced, did secret police knock on people's doors in the middle of the night and drag legal citizens away for having the wrong DNA? Did they march under an imperial eagle? Were they part of an autocratic government under an idealized leader figure? Do we see photos of thousands of them standing in perfect ranks in military uniform as one united nation? Are you, essentially, trying to take one ingredient from the cake yet again, and insist that I can't be talking about a specific type of cake despite so many of the ingredients aligning into that combination? No-one is saying that Nazism is the only influence. Or even that necessarily it must be the strongest influence. But your dogmatic refusal to countenance the strong parallels and the synchronicity of them all coming together, is becoming absurd.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's what I was responding to.

Racial Purity is not uniquely Nazi. We had Racial Purity-proponents and proto-eugenics groups in 19th century America, both before and after the Civil War.

It's still fun to call them nazis.
Why are you arguing about this anyway? It's like those people who think socialism is the same as communism, kind of annoying and ignorant, but not very important in the long run.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That's what I was responding to.

Racial Purity is not uniquely Nazi. We had Racial Purity-proponents and proto-eugenics groups in 19th century America, both before and after the Civil War.

It's still fun to call them nazis.
Why are you arguing about this anyway? It's like those people who think socialism is the same as communism, kind of annoying and ignorant, but not very important in the long run.

Excuse me, but I'm pretty well aware of the differences between Communism and Socialism. I've given plenty of reasons why I'm specifically talking about Nazis. I don't know why some people are insisting I must not know what I'm talking about and am just confused. If I'd meant Totalitarianism, I'd have said that in the beginning.

I'll be so bold and say that the IoM in its gothic, grimdark state could have NEVER been created by any pre-1930s science fiction writer at all, as the Nazis as such (or any of the major totalitarian regimes) hadn't yet then come into power.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071125132841/http://ca.geocities.com/crazy40kguy/namesandhomages.html

 Sir Arun wrote:
I'll be so bold and say that the IoM in its gothic, grimdark state could have NEVER been created by any pre-1930s science fiction writer at all, as the Nazis as such (or any of the major totalitarian regimes) hadn't yet then come into power.

That's not true, the communist overthrow in Russia occurred during the First World War, and it was a bloody affair from the very beginning. It is a staple of communist governments to use a 'secret' police to force support of the state. Stalin was in office as early as 1922, and he makes Hitler look like a choir boy in terms of the scale of his atrocities. Hell, the Allies assumed we were going to end up in a shooting matching with the Russians following the collapse of the Nazis.

Even before the communist party came to power in Russia people were talking about them as being pretty villainous and rotten. A 'grimdark' state is exactly what people thought the communists would bring about, even then. Then what happened? They did just that (Stalin, Mao, Castro, Ho Chi Min all came to power through pogroms, purge the alien, hate the other guy ideology).


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On the flip side, contemporary American authors tended to have a pretty 'grim dark' view of the Puritans and the sort of government they established.

The Scarlet Letter, for example.

knas ser wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That's what I was responding to.

Racial Purity is not uniquely Nazi. We had Racial Purity-proponents and proto-eugenics groups in 19th century America, both before and after the Civil War.

It's still fun to call them nazis.
Why are you arguing about this anyway? It's like those people who think socialism is the same as communism, kind of annoying and ignorant, but not very important in the long run.

Excuse me, but I'm pretty well aware of the differences between Communism and Socialism. I've given plenty of reasons why I'm specifically talking about Nazis. I don't know why some people are insisting I must not know what I'm talking about and am just confused. If I'd meant Totalitarianism, I'd have said that in the beginning.

I'm not saying that, what I'm saying that this argument is kind of silly. I was comparing arguing the differences between communism and socialism to someone who refuses to understand it, i.e. not worth your time, and not important. It is easy to compare them to nazis because of the many similarities. Nazis may be the thing that GW first based the fluff off of, maybe not, but, and let me make myself perfectly clear, IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Didn't read all of this, because I agree with Co'tor Shas the argument is silly. To me the influences for the IOM that stick out to me more(for I like them more) are the Roman empire and the middle ages. The IOM has space traveling cathedrals I mean that just awesome.

I wouldn't consider the IOM Space Nazis as much as they are Stalinist Space Soviets with some Nazi elements thrown in. This grows all the more apparent with the Imperial Guard. They certainly have Nazi elements, but I'd put them more as Stalinist Soviets than Nazis.

Not to mention nearly every 'Nazi overtone' is just the same as a Stalinist Soviet, considering there was few differences between Stalin's Russia and Nazi Germany save the body count.

Also, race-based genocide is not at all exclusive to the Nazis and is far older than their short-lived empire.

 Psienesis wrote:


You are very much off-base in why you think I'm arguing this.

So,if I may ask, why are you arguing this?

And on a related note: I was never trying to imply that the Nazis were the only group to ever practice ethnic violence. But they did make it a primary focus of their government, which is hard to say about anybody else. Yes, Stalin and Mao killed more people, but you wouldn't say that mass exterminations of ethnic groups was a primary focus of their regimes. Yes, they targeted other ethnic groups, but they were a secondary target compared to the political enemy of the moment (which changed on a weekly basis in the case of Mao). The Nazis targeted Jews first and foremost, and killed political opponents as well, but the political murders were secondary (in scope and scale) to the ethnic murders.

Lots of people have been horrible to other people throughout history, and there has been ethnic cleansing and genocide before and since the Nazis, but the Nazis did it all in a way that is (thankfully) unique to them.

Which brings me to my next point, Knas Ser... your cake analogy for this whole debate sums up the whole situation so succinctly. I wish I had your creativity about this sort of thing.

To me the basis of the Imperium of Man comes from gathering the harshest elements & facets from various forms of human society (totalitarianism, 'police state', oppresively imposed religion, fear of technological advances and many others), stuck together and then expanded to cover a million worlds. What this does is create the wonderfully horrific impression that whilst the life of its inhabitants is horrible, the Imperium truly needs every one of those horrible facets or it would crumble into dust. Think of it as each of those facets being a pillar which shares a part of the burden of the Imperium's weight - if just one of those pillars disappears, the whole lot falls down.

There's no one direct inspiration for the Imperium, in the same way there is no one direct inspiration for the Imperial Guard (no, they're not Space Soviets - Valhalla is ONE planet famous for it's unique means of waging war that resembles the stereotypical view of the Soviet Army during 1939-1945*) - they all draw from different elements from our global history.

*The Tallarn don't wage war in a manner that resembles anything like the 'Red Army', nor do the Mordians, Praetorians, Tanith or Elysians. Cadians, Catachans & the Death Korps of Krieg have their own individual ways of waging war, as do the Steel Legion and the Savlar Chem Dogs and the Jumael 'Lucky Aces'. I could go on and list plenty of different regiments that exist in the background and none of them will fight in a manner that is anything like the Soviets. This is because they're all inspired by different wars & campaigns from history - for example the Mordian Iron Guard are a composite of French & Prussian forces from the Franco-Prussian War, while the Death Korps of Krieg is based upon the major armies of the Western Front (France. Britain, Germany, Belgium) during the middle of the Great War.

Iracundus wrote:
No race or faction is entirely just one culture lifted as is from history. GW has taken and blended and adapted (to vary degrees of success) parts from all over the world and from different historical time periods.

For example:

The Eldar thematically draw from multiple sources. Of these, Japan is one of them. Direct evidence of aesthetc borrowings include: the symbol of Iyanden includes a shrine gate design directly analogous to Japanese Shinto shrines. The back banners Jes Goodwin was fond of including in Eldar design (and which was present in many 2nd ed. models) matched the back banners worn by Japanese samurai and soldiers during the Japanese Warring States period and are even named as sashimono banners in Jes Goodwin's sketches and notes.

However, the Eldar also have influences from Greek,Celtic, even Egyptian sources. The Corinthian design of Eldar helms, particularly Dire Avenger ones, for example is clear Greek influence. Eldar Craftworld names of Biel-tan and Saim-han are direct copies of the real world Celtic festivals/holidays. The false chin beards on certain Eldar helms such as the Dire Avenger Exarch borrows from the Egyptians (see Egyptian funeral masks), and the Ulthwe design is based off the historical Egyptian Eye of Horus. The chiseled Eldar runes are based off Egyptian hieroglyphs while the more fluid Eldar runes look like those that might be written with a brush, and are either a reference to Egyptian Demotic or Asian brush writing. The Yin/Yang symbols on Eldar transfer sheets or Eldar Titans and Wraithknights is a take on the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang. The seals on the Wraith constructs is referred to by Jes Goodwin in his sketches as tugra, which is a Turk/Ottoman thing. Overlying all of this is the theme of Tolkien elves.

Thematically each of these cultures served as epitome of alien, inscrutable menace to one of the component influences on the Imperium. The Imperium is, obviously, part Roman, part-medieval and part-Victorian. Romans were simultaneously fascinated and repulsed by the Greeks and Egyptians, medieval western Europeans by the Byzantines and the Victorians by the Chinese. Fu Manchu, the quintessential "Yellow Peril" villain is pretty much how the Imperium pictures Eldar Farseers.

The most "original" part of 40k lore is on the Eldar, they have dozens of influencies from all "ancient" history. Pretty nice if you see the empire as the "Medieval Era", post Great Rome, and the Eldar are the "things even more ancient than that". Tau will eventually rise to that point...

Isnt the whole Necrontyr making a pact with the star vampires background also original? And same about the Tyranid fluff?

 Sir Arun wrote:
Isnt the whole Necrontyr making a pact with the star vampires background also original? And same about the Tyranid fluff?

Well, to me tyranids look like a mix between starship troopers and aliens...
As for the necrontyr+c'tan=necrons... errr.... "equation", they somehow (maybe the egyptian-like structure?) reminds me of stargate's goau'ld... Admittedly, idk which came first... Then again, necrons could totally be a mix of undead and egyptian culture, couldn't they?

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Isnt the whole Necrontyr making a pact with the star vampires background also original? And same about the Tyranid fluff?

Well, to me tyranids look like a mix between starship troopers and aliens...
As for the necrontyr+c'tan=necrons... errr.... "equation", they somehow (maybe the egyptian-like structure?) reminds me of stargate's goau'ld... Admittedly, idk which came first... Then again, necrons could totally be a mix of undead and egyptian culture, couldn't they?

Genestealers were originally their own independent race and clearly derived from Aliens. Then later on it was fleshed out with Patriarch Genestealers, magi, et al. and you got Genestealer armies. And then at some point someone at GW had a light bulb moment and connected Tyranids and Genestealers together and suddenly Genestealers were an advance force that was sent ahead of the Hive to prepare the way.

I miss the old Geanstealer cults with their looted PDF weapons...

Anyway on topic someone mentioned the Great Crusade/Heresy as Alexander the Great and the wars of the Diadochi. I think this is actually represented pretty much blow for blow by Lord Commander Solar Macharius campaign right down to reaching the halo zone, turning back and then dying of fever.

So,if I may ask, why are you arguing this?

As other people pointed out, the Imperium is far less Nazi and far more Soviet. The Inquisition, specifically, is really not Nazi-specific at all, and is far more just general "secret police", whether that's KGB or Orwell's Ministry of Love/Ministry of Truth.

I'd much rather draw a parallel to the far older institutions that were essentially 'secret police', like Fouché's men during Revolutionary/Imperial France. Spies & informants and groups of individuals who crack down on any outspoken opponents of the regime/traitors go way back to the dawn of civilisation - it's not something specifically to do with the Nazi party or Stalinist Russia.

I would assert that there's far more to do with classical & medieval socities in the Imperium than more modern influences. Do not forget the various influences - High & Low Gothic*, the very 'gothic' nature of architecture & visual appearance of Imperial structures & vehicles. The Space Marines ape Greco-Romano & Medieval influences and there are various classical influences thrown in - such as laurel wreaths appearing (for example on the Emperor's Champion), depictions of Solar Macharius have him wearing golden/bronze armour blatantly inspired by armour from the ancient world (someone's already mentioned the potential Alexander the Great link) and probably more influences than I could possibly list.

Personally I'd put the Imperium down as more inspired by Classical/'Dark Age'/Medieval/Early Modern Europe than Modern Europe. Don't forget that 40k & Fantasy were essentially devised (well a lot was ripped from other things) by English chaps who have a great love of history. You're more likely to find influences crossing the span of man's history than just modern history. This is why the Imperial Guard has regiments ranging in influences from across the span of history, not just standard sci-fi 'modern'-esque troops.

*Essentially akin to Norman-French & Middle-English - Norman-French spoken by the aristocracy (descended from the Norman conquerors) & Middle-English spoken by the common man.

Sure. I think I'd mentioned them in a previous post up-thread, so didn't feel the need to repeat it, but, yeah, basically that. There's a rich (?) history of human beings being terrible to one another in creatively sadistic ways, so 40K does not need to draw on the regime du jour as inspiration, when it can be informed by all sorts of other sources.

As we've seen in other areas, going as far back as RT, the GW people are fairly well-read. There's plenty of opportunity for them to have drawn ideas from things other than Hitler.

Dark Eldar are Fairies and Elves.

Not the kind you're thinking of, the tinkerbells and Tolkiens, but the old, archaic elves.
The vicious evil bastards that thought nothing of taking an eye if it amused them, or kidnapping a child because it was entertaining at the time. The cool elves, basically. They just scream Grimmdark to me (heheheh, geddit).

Also, the Iom Vs Daemons/chaos spess mehrens seems very Order Vs Anarchy to me, the rigid, 'safe' imperium against the totally unlawful and unruled warp.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Grey Knights are holy warriors charged with the destruction of the daemonic... and they will use the vilest of sorceries and the blackest of magics to ensure that is done.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. See, this is post Matt Ward fluff. Pre-Matt Ward fluff meant that the Grey Knights were the purest of the Imperium, the most clean and the most badass of all, but also the fewest in number of all the Imperium's militant forces. For example in the old fluff they flat out refused to ally themselves with Radical Inquisitors, and only Puritan Inquisitors could work with them.

Post Mat Ward fluff has made them into the wet dream of any radical inquisitor, having bound daemon heads cackling in their feast hall, alien weapons and all sorts of other xeno trinkets amidst their collection, killing sisters of battle or anyone who "witness" what they do and they have basically devolved into social Pariahs who have their own agenda with the extermination of Chaos rather than being the most stalwart agents of the Imperium.

In fact, they have gained so much separation from the body of the Inquisition that post Ward fluff almost makes them out to be a Space Marine chapter in its own right.

In early fluff the Grey Knights army list included Ordo Malleus Daemonhunters who could use captured Daemon Weapons (to the extent of actually summoning the bound daemon to fight on their behalf) and any allied non-Grey Knights troops were assumed to be executed after the battle. They get on fine with "radical" Inquisitors if need be.

Going to the root of things, I once heard a radio interview with one of the founders of GW. The claim from was that the Orcs are, as has been mentioned, English football hooligans. Dwarves are hard-drinking mining types from "oop north" and Elves are wine bar-frequenting soft southern jessies. There's been layers added on top, but right at the bottom of it, that's the basis of Warhammer, and by extension, 40k.

Also, consider the level of "grimdark" required to make a race of hideous monsters, each stronger and tougher than a man, who live for warfare and will slaughter you for sport without a moment's hesitation the comic relief.

 Psienesis wrote:


As other people pointed out, the Imperium is far less Nazi and far more Soviet. The Inquisition, specifically, is really not Nazi-specific at all, and is far more just general "secret police", whether that's KGB or Orwell's Ministry of Love/Ministry of Truth.

Actually, the Inquisition is less Soviet or generic secret police, and far more... the Inquisition, as in: the Catholic Church's department of torture and general douchebaggery. As for the Imperial Guard, the only Soviet influences there are the Valhallans and the Commissars, with the Commissars being slightly less Soviet than the Valhallans... Everything about the Valhallans is WWII-era Soviet Red Army (the way they look, the way they fight, and their lone SC) but, while the Commissars have a definite Soviet name, and serve pretty much the same purpose on the battlefield that the Party Commissars did in the Red Army, GW decided to give them a distinctly late 19-early 20th century Germanic or Prussian look. Seriously, every Commissar model in the IG codex looks like it should be named "von" something...