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So on another thread about the Inquisition we stumbled onto the debate about the mysterious origins of the Blood Ravens so instead of continuing to spiral off topic in that thread, I decided to start a new one.

Personally, I think the Blood Ravens are the last loyalist faction of Thousand Sons that escaped during the Burning of Prospero and that their origins were deliberately destroyed by either the first founding members or possibly the Inquisition to protect the Blood Ravens because it would be a bigger problem if everyone found out their true origins.

To the table I bring this:
The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself.
The pre-Heresy heraldry of the Thousand Sons is similar to the heraldry of the Blood Ravens; specifically the Thousand Sons Corvidae cult, who as well as wearing the red armour of all Thousand Sons, also sport a black raven insignia. Also, the reason why the Blood Ravens are successful during battles is because of the particular psyker power they are the best at is Divination just like the Corivdae cult.
The psyker Kallista Eris had a vision concerning the fate of the Thousand Sons shortly before the Burning of Prospero. Among other things she mentioned "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
The Blood Ravens' motto "Knowledge is power" was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion's destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus the Red prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon.
The Blood Ravens' Rahe's Paradise outpost was discovered to be built upon the ruins of a previous Astartes structure, one that dated from "ten millennia ago". While no identification markings could be found upon it, a red-painted Astartes shoulder plate was excavated from these ruins. Additionally, these ancient Astartes were revealed to have allied themselves with Eldar forces present upon the planet to defeat a great evil, and to have agreed to maintain stewardship over the world in order to thwart this evil should it return. Ten millenia ago references the birth of the Imperium, although the Thousand Sons were not the only Astartes Legion to wear red as their primary colour at this time, seeing as the Blood Angels continue to do so.
During an incident on the planet Arcadia, Librarian Rhamah of the Blood Ravens suffered amnesia and fell in with the Prodigal Sons warband of Thousand Sons sorcerer-lord Ahzek Ahriman. Throughout this association Ahriman and his warband referred to Rhamah variously as "Son of Ahriman", "friend of Ahriman" and as a "lost brother". Furthermore, when Rhamah locates an ancient Eldar tome - called the Un-Founding - that bears the crest of the Blood Ravens upon its cover, Ahriman concedes that he once owned a copy of the book and that another one was in the possession of Azariah Vidya (of whom Ahriman states, "I knew Vidya better than you might expect"). He further states to Rhamah "We are not so different, you and I. We were not always so different...there was a time, long ago, before the Change, when the Thousand Sons of Magnus wore the blood-red armour of their Primarch.

The main thing that indicates the BR are not from Thousand Son geneseed, to me, is that:

1) They aren't all psykers, unlike the Thousand Sons.

2) They don't suffer from the Flesh Change, unlike the Thousand Sons.

3) The Inquisition is not a unified body. If an Inquisitor had, somehow, used Thousand Sons gene-seed to commission the creation of a Chapter of Space Marines, there's a huge-ass paper trail that is created in that action. This is not a thing that can be undertaken by a single man, or even a small group of conspirators. And Puritan Inquisitors would never countenance such a thing. This is, in effect, not a secret that could be kept.

4) While records, or their absence, are not, in and of themselves, indicative of anything, they are as much a clue as to the origins of the Blood Ravens as the other hints that fans like to use as evidence that the BR are 1KS descendents. If what is good for the goose is not good for the gander, then we need to discard the use of "Knowledge is power" because that's a phrase in use on modern Earth, and we pre-date both the Thousand Sons and the Blood Ravens by at least 28,000 years. If the fact that some wacko prophet saw a "raven dripping with blood" (or whatever the line is) is somehow proof... then Jesus in an Eggo Waffle is proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually the God-Emperor of Mankind and that Horus was actually an avatar of J. R. "Bob" Dobbs, and we've all be conned, as neither of them died, they just made it look like that so they could hop on the Stark Fist of Salvation and board the sex-ships of alien hotties.

5) Last, and certainly not least, some of the "clues" that have been dropped are so blatantly obvious, so overtly feeding into the fan-theories, that they are *obviously* red herrings.

 Psienesis wrote:
The main thing that indicates the BR are not from Thousand Son geneseed, to me, is that:

1) They aren't all psykers, unlike the Thousand Sons.

2) They don't suffer from the Flesh Change, unlike the Thousand Sons.

3) The Inquisition is not a unified body. If an Inquisitor had, somehow, used Thousand Sons gene-seed to commission the creation of a Chapter of Space Marines, there's a huge-ass paper trail that is created in that action. This is not a thing that can be undertaken by a single man, or even a small group of conspirators. And Puritan Inquisitors would never countenance such a thing. This is, in effect, not a secret that could be kept.

4) While records, or their absence, are not, in and of themselves, indicative of anything, they are as much a clue as to the origins of the Blood Ravens as the other hints that fans like to use as evidence that the BR are 1KS descendents. If what is good for the goose is not good for the gander, then we need to discard the use of "Knowledge is power" because that's a phrase in use on modern Earth, and we pre-date both the Thousand Sons and the Blood Ravens by at least 28,000 years. If the fact that some wacko prophet saw a "raven dripping with blood" (or whatever the line is) is somehow proof... then Jesus in an Eggo Waffle is proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually the God-Emperor of Mankind and that Horus was actually an avatar of J. R. "Bob" Dobbs, and we've all be conned, as neither of them died, they just made it look like that so they could hop on the Stark Fist of Salvation and board the sex-ships of alien hotties.

5) Last, and certainly not least, some of the "clues" that have been dropped are so blatantly obvious, so overtly feeding into the fan-theories, that they are *obviously* red herrings.

The reason why the Thousand Sons were all psykers is because that is who they recruited, just like the GK does. The gene-seed coming from Magnus then enhanced those psyker powers beyound what they would have normally. If the gene-seed is indeed Magnus' then it would have the potential to turn non-psykers into psykers like say how the gene seed of the Blood Ravens does in their modern times since that gene-seed comes from the second most powerful human psyker to date.

The flesh change could of easily been a coup of Tzeentch since it wouldn't be hard to manipulate every single 1K Son because every single 1k Son had a daemon familiar that was a constant connection to the warp and not to mention that Magnus was the Chaos Gods first choice into starting the Heresy in the first place, not Horus so you would think that they would do something in order to screw with Magnus to have him desperate to make deals with daemons. People mutate with connection to warp even if they are pure unless they have some pretty formidable defenses like the GK so the fact that the every single 1k Son had a connection to the warp 24/7, yeah, I think they would start to mutate, especially because they did not take precautions to protect themselves from warp taint like the Space Wolves did. Magnus could of been easily lead on to believe that it was his gene seed. Its definitely within the power of Tzeentch to do this, he is the God of Change after all.

For one thing, I don't think the Inquisition commissioned any chapter besides the GK (which was really Malcador) and commissioned that chapters give to Deathwatch. The Blood Ravens were founded independently from them. What I was saying is that the Inquisition takes its lengths to keep the origins of the Blood Ravens a secret. Honestly, the Blood Ravens were probably founded by someone like Revuel Arvida and the others that survived but covered up their origins in the wake of the Horus Heresy. If they would of came out and said "Hey, we are loyalist Thousand Sons, here to help", the Space Wolves wouldn't of cared and slaughtered them. Especially after the attack on Fenris. So they, covered it up just like the Dark Angels cover up the information out what happened with their fallen. I was saying the Inquisition knows and this is why they keep an eye on them.

As far as the organization of the Inquisition, although loose it still exists with a repository knowledge that is shared among those in the organization otherwise trials and hearings within the Inquisition couldn't exist nor would it be organized enough to maintain its militant branches of the three major Ordos. To say that the Inquisition is not a unified body, is basically saying that they are just a loose group of vigilantes. There are still ruling bodies, especially on Terra that govern the Inquisition just like every other branch of Imperial government. The Inquisition is just given more authority to do as it pleases to perform the highly sensitive missions they are sent to do.

 Envihon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The main thing that indicates the BR are not from Thousand Son geneseed, to me, is that:

1) They aren't all psykers, unlike the Thousand Sons.

2) They don't suffer from the Flesh Change, unlike the Thousand Sons.

3) The Inquisition is not a unified body. If an Inquisitor had, somehow, used Thousand Sons gene-seed to commission the creation of a Chapter of Space Marines, there's a huge-ass paper trail that is created in that action. This is not a thing that can be undertaken by a single man, or even a small group of conspirators. And Puritan Inquisitors would never countenance such a thing. This is, in effect, not a secret that could be kept.

4) While records, or their absence, are not, in and of themselves, indicative of anything, they are as much a clue as to the origins of the Blood Ravens as the other hints that fans like to use as evidence that the BR are 1KS descendents. If what is good for the goose is not good for the gander, then we need to discard the use of "Knowledge is power" because that's a phrase in use on modern Earth, and we pre-date both the Thousand Sons and the Blood Ravens by at least 28,000 years. If the fact that some wacko prophet saw a "raven dripping with blood" (or whatever the line is) is somehow proof... then Jesus in an Eggo Waffle is proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually the God-Emperor of Mankind and that Horus was actually an avatar of J. R. "Bob" Dobbs, and we've all be conned, as neither of them died, they just made it look like that so they could hop on the Stark Fist of Salvation and board the sex-ships of alien hotties.

5) Last, and certainly not least, some of the "clues" that have been dropped are so blatantly obvious, so overtly feeding into the fan-theories, that they are *obviously* red herrings.

The reason why the Thousand Sons were all psykers is because that is who they recruited, just like the GK does. The gene-seed coming from Magnus then enhanced those psyker powers beyound what they would have normally. If the gene-seed is indeed Magnus' then it would have the potential to turn non-psykers into psykers like say how the gene seed of the Blood Ravens does in their modern times since that gene-seed comes from the second most powerful human psyker to date.

The flesh change could of easily been a coup of Tzeentch since it wouldn't be hard to manipulate every single 1K Son because every single 1k Son had a daemon familiar that was a constant connection to the warp and not to mention that Magnus was the Chaos Gods first choice into starting the Heresy in the first place, not Horus so you would think that they would do something in order to screw with Magnus to have him desperate to make deals with daemons. People mutate with connection to warp even if they are pure unless they have some pretty formidable defenses like the GK so the fact that the every single 1k Son had a connection to the warp 24/7, yeah, I think they would start to mutate, especially because they did not take precautions to protect themselves from warp taint like the Space Wolves did. Magnus could of been easily lead on to believe that it was his gene seed. Its definitely within the power of Tzeentch to do this, he is the God of Change after all.

For one thing, I don't think the Inquisition commissioned any chapter besides the GK (which was really Malcador) and commissioned that chapters give to Deathwatch. The Blood Ravens were founded independently from them. What I was saying is that the Inquisition takes its lengths to keep the origins of the Blood Ravens a secret. Honestly, the Blood Ravens were probably founded by someone like Revuel Arvida and the others that survived but covered up their origins in the wake of the Horus Heresy. If they would of came out and said "Hey, we are loyalist Thousand Sons, here to help", the Space Wolves wouldn't of cared and slaughtered them. Especially after the attack on Fenris. So they, covered it up just like the Dark Angels cover up the information out what happened with their fallen. I was saying the Inquisition knows and this is why they keep an eye on them.

As far as the organization of the Inquisition, although loose it still exists with a repository knowledge that is shared among those in the organization otherwise trials and hearings within the Inquisition couldn't exist nor would it be organized enough to maintain its militant branches of the three major Ordos. To say that the Inquisition is not a unified body, is basically saying that they are just a loose group of vigilantes. There are still ruling bodies, especially on Terra that govern the Inquisition just like every other branch of Imperial government. The Inquisition is just given more authority to do as it pleases to perform the highly sensitive missions they are sent to do.

And now for my part! Elaborating on what Envihon has said...

Consider this from Tzeentch's point of view. Or better yet, Magnus himself. You know you've got one of the most vile forces of nature out to get you for denying it it's prize and that force or You is/are the Great Conspirator. Kinda fitting joke to play on the 1KS, right? Start poking at them a little bit and make them think they have to do something drastic, so they pull on that power more and let them blow themselves to dust. And in one fell swoop you let their arrogance and pride consume themselves for you....almost. It seems like Magnus has planned for Ahriman to kill him and free him from his shackles, but this is a ploy of Tzeentch to get Ahriman to take "the Throne," as it were, something Ahriman is rebelling against to this day. With that depth of conspiracy consuming Magnus directly, it would make sense he'd "cut off an arm," especially one like the Corvidae, who'd be the only group capable of uncovering their past and their true purpose, in order to save the lot or perhaps the entirety of the Imperium. For him, this was probably a way of keeping the smell off of Tzeentch's prey, and now it's too late. Either way, Magnus will have the last laugh, and his blood seems to be the ones to do it. Loyal or Corrupt. These are the webs that are weaved when dealing with a creature as complex as the Architect of Fate, the Changer of Ways and the Great Conspirator.

On top of that, when we start talking about records, one must also realize that tired old addage, "Time does not exist in the Warp." And we are talking about groups who are more tied to the Warp than any other in their fields; both the Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons individually, with the exception of Grey Knights who I suggest dabble in that Emperor-made Warp Stuff and not so much real Warp stuff, but that's a whole other topic all together. So suppose Thousand Sons fleet commander were commanded by Magnus to leave and never come back, and they jumped to Warp, as would be standard in escaping....where did they go? Or better yet, when did they go?

There is a thread going on right now about how Time and Distance are affected by Warp travel, and there has been all kinds of theories and supported materials thrown out with pretty vague figures (they're supposed to be for Battlefleet Gothic or something, among other things) and the one that I find most interesting, and would also support this case, is the idea of the "thickness" of the Warp. A better general example would be like post-modern sea travel, put up the sails and hope for the best. So if you stay near the shallows and make short jumps, you can screw with time a little bit and come out where you needed to be at about the same time you left. But if you go deep then there is no telling where you might end up, and you're going to go faster and faster the longer you stay in it. If this is the case, I'd say the Warp was pretty "thick" when Prospero was burning. ;>> Would account for a lot of time delay coming out the other side.

One final note, I'm almost positive it's been cited somewhere that Tzeentch tricked the Thousand Sons into entering the Warp to save themselves from mutation and such. My favorite part about this is when Ahriman goes back to see some of these guys and they're like.... a black shadowy body and a circle of eyes or a big floppy tongue or something. The Warp is certainly fierce at times.


On a side note: With some support, I could totally write some fanfic endgame scenarios that would be amazing to read. In fact, I'm probably going to start on the End of the Thousand Sons now. +__+

 Psienesis wrote:

5) Last, and certainly not least, some of the "clues" that have been dropped are so blatantly obvious, so overtly feeding into the fan-theories, that they are *obviously* red herrings.

...............what the feth?

That's like, a statement from the kind of guy that takes a lemon and does his darndest to convince someone it's really an orange. That's like saying "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, it's clearly not a duck." That's like.... oh just nevermind.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

5) Last, and certainly not least, some of the "clues" that have been dropped are so blatantly obvious, so overtly feeding into the fan-theories, that they are *obviously* red herrings.

...............what the feth?

That's like, a statement from the kind of guy that takes a lemon and does his darndest to convince someone it's really an orange. That's like saying "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, it's clearly not a duck." That's like.... oh just nevermind.

It's alright. You'll notice by the quality of arguments presented alone that there is quiet possibly very little debate ongoing, especially since we've answered all of his questions/rebuttals so far. lol

I believe its entirely possible that the BR are founded from one of the missing Legions, who's geneseed survived when those two broken legions were rolled into the Ultramarines. Hence why they have no connection to any known First Founder. This could also be why Ahriman said they were close or brothers or something. I can't remember the actual quote. But assuming my hypothesis is correct, both the Blood Raven Legion and the Thousands Sons were "Purged" by the Space Wolves. But the TSons simply remained in Chapter Records. And survived by besides the point.

Anyway, that's my idea. Take it, leave it, debate it.

Who can say that Ahriman was telling the truth to Rhamah? He could have been lying or saying just enough to let Ramah infer what he wanted.

It bugs me that anything said by a character in a work of fiction is held up as fact unless it's explicitly refuted, especially when those characters are established to have their own agendas.

let's step back and examine some things about what we know, and then I'll put forward MY theory.

I'll not repeat the 10K sons referances but will focus on the unmentioned stuff.

1stly, Blood Raven history dates back to the 37th Millenum. however other chapters referances to them suggests that they had seen service for "centuries before hand" but that records have been wiped in a manner suggesting both the blood ravens and the inqusition conspired to do so. This means that the latest founding the Blood Ravens could conceviably belong to was the 21st founding.

2ndly, the IoM maintains access to the gene stocks of ALL first founding legions, including the traitor legions, whose gene seed was placed under a time locked stasis seal.

3rdly, the early 36th Millinum saw the 13th founding, which has very very bad records.
it's worth noting that one of the few chapters of that founding we know has had it's gene-seed sire locked under inqusitional record.

My personal theory is that the BRs are a 13th founding chapter and that the 13th founding was about the time the gene seed vaults of the fallen legion became avaliable. hence why so many records of that founding are.. shoddy.

thus the BRs are indeed the sons of Magnus, but are not a second founding Legion.

it's A Idea. not sure if it's a good one


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkSoldier wrote:
Who can say that Ahriman was telling the truth to Rhamah? He could have been lying or saying just enough to let Ramah infer what he wanted.

It bugs me that anything said by a character in a work of fiction is held up as fact unless it's explicitly refuted, especially when those characters are established to have their own agendas.

one thing worth noting as well is that given that BR records begin with the 37th M. we should proably assume Azariah Vidya's reign dates from around that time

There is no doubt that the 1k sons are the primogenitor of the ravens, black library author even said he couldn't believe how many hints had been dropped and people still aren't getting it, for me the last book was so bleeding obvious it was like putting up a giant neon sign with massive arrows saying "get yer thousand sons here"

Anyone who still thinks otherwise amazes me, I admit the reasons and fluff are shoddilly done and seen hamfisted in, but it's there however badly implemented.

 Formosa wrote:
There is no doubt that the 1k sons are the primogenitor of the ravens, black library author even said he couldn't believe how many hints had been dropped and people still aren't getting it, for me the last book was so bleeding obvious it was like putting up a giant neon sign with massive arrows saying "get yer thousand sons here"

Anyone who still thinks otherwise amazes me, I admit the reasons and fluff are shoddilly done and seen hamfisted in, but it's there however badly implemented.

As a writer, I can tell you that this was a good idea that had come up after the establishment of some pretty consistent cannon. That said, even with a shoe horn, and given what we know about the nature of the Warp, it's not that badly done. Not as bad as say.... well, I'd be speaking for everyone else because I think all of this is pretty well written but, the Alpha Legion? Or perhaps the ongoing debate about Angron's legitimacy for turning traitor? Or "what kind of person was Dorn?"

Actually, I'm going to back up on that since I personally don't share those views and I think a lot of Chaos players agree with me there. Then again, I can't be sure considering how much lamenting has been had by all parties about certain things. -shrug-

I like it. It flows for me and in the real world it was a successful attempt.

 Formosa wrote:
There is no doubt that the 1k sons are the primogenitor of the ravens, black library author even said he couldn't believe how many hints had been dropped and people still aren't getting it, for me the last book was so bleeding obvious it was like putting up a giant neon sign with massive arrows saying "get yer thousand sons here"

Anyone who still thinks otherwise amazes me, I admit the reasons and fluff are shoddilly done and seen hamfisted in, but it's there however badly implemented.

This is about where I am at and I do know that C.S. Goto has come out and said that he put clues within the books for those who know where to find them but some here think that it is just a red herring and that it can't be the Thousand Sons so I brought it to the broader attention to see what everyone else thought.

I like the idea that Blood Ravens are T-sons "last chapter" sort of deal.

personally I believe that they are.

How boring would this entire story line be if GW cleared this matter up...

The Anathema wrote:
How boring would this entire story line be if GW cleared this matter up...

on that note, how boring would it be if they actually MOVED FORWARD in the darn story. lol

 Formosa wrote:
There is no doubt that the 1k sons are the primogenitor of the ravens, black library author even said he couldn't believe how many hints had been dropped and people still aren't getting it, for me the last book was so bleeding obvious it was like putting up a giant neon sign with massive arrows saying "get yer thousand sons here"

Its by C.S Goto so it doesn't count.Yo dawg multilasers on multilasers on land raiders!

I don't think BR are "loyalist" Thousand Sons left over from the Heresy. If they were, they would suffer from the same flesh change problems that dogged them back in the day. If Tzeentch was the cause of the flesh change, why would he stop afflicting the "loyalist" 1k Kiddies after getting most of the Legion on his side? Why not keep fething with them for shiggles? Or until they too turned? For that matter, why didn't the Rubric of Ahriman zap the "loyalist" BR into dust, if it affected "all" Thousand Sons afflicted with the curse?

The answer is: the 21st Founding. GW has long used this "mysterious" and "cursed" founding to excuse any wacky ideas for SM somebody comes up with. I believe that the BR were created from Thousand Sons gene-seed in the 21st Founding. Remember, there is a lot of speculation (in-universe) that some crazy gene-tampering went on with the geneseed used in the founding, because many of the SM created by it mutated, went insane, exploded, or all three. The Lamenters (for some reason) seemed completely 'cured' of the Black Rage and Red Thirst (until very recently, allegedly). Obviously, somebody jiggered their DNA. Why couldn't the Admech diddle with some 1k Kiddie geneseed and try to correct the flesh change flaw? It's totally possible, and the records from that era were sealed/purged/unmade by the powers that be, so its clear they have something to hide... New SM chapters made with altered traitor geneseed? That's something I'd want to cover up.

It's far more likely that the BR came from the 21st Founding, rather than the Horus Heresy. Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that the BR are Thousand Sons descendants at all... but that's mostly because C. S. Goto says they are, and that man is straight up crazy.

squidhills wrote:
I don't think BR are "loyalist" Thousand Sons left over from the Heresy. If they were, they would suffer from the same flesh change problems that dogged them back in the day. If Tzeentch was the cause of the flesh change, why would he stop afflicting the "loyalist" 1k Kiddies after getting most of the Legion on his side? Why not keep fething with them for shiggles? Or until they too turned? For that matter, why didn't the Rubric of Ahriman zap the "loyalist" BR into dust, if it affected "all" Thousand Sons afflicted with the curse?

The answer is: the 21st Founding. GW has long used this "mysterious" and "cursed" founding to excuse any wacky ideas for SM somebody comes up with. I believe that the BR were created from Thousand Sons gene-seed in the 21st Founding. Remember, there is a lot of speculation (in-universe) that some crazy gene-tampering went on with the geneseed used in the founding, because many of the SM created by it mutated, went insane, exploded, or all three. The Lamenters (for some reason) seemed completely 'cured' of the Black Rage and Red Thirst (until very recently, allegedly). Obviously, somebody jiggered their DNA. Why couldn't the Admech diddle with some 1k Kiddie geneseed and try to correct the flesh change flaw? It's totally possible, and the records from that era were sealed/purged/unmade by the powers that be, so its clear they have something to hide... New SM chapters made with altered traitor geneseed? That's something I'd want to cover up.

It's far more likely that the BR came from the 21st Founding, rather than the Horus Heresy. Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that the BR are Thousand Sons descendants at all... but that's mostly because C. S. Goto says they are, and that man is straight up crazy.

We've answered those questions, but you do extend into some other points which I can clear up. Tzeentch was the cause of the flesh change to force Magnus and Ahriman into the Warp. Mission accomplished. Why did he stop? 1: Tzeentch got what he wanted from Magnus, which elated him, and now he's too busy poking at Ahriman and giggling to himself to notice that Magnus cut off an arm called the Blood Ravens that will truly liberate the entire Legion Thousand Sons. And suppose Tzeentch does know about the Blood Ravens; The Blood Ravens are not so closely bound to the Warp as the Thousand Sons before are. In fact, one could argue they're probably as far from any warp storm as possible. And why didn't the Rubric work? Consider a couple things. 1) It didn't destroy all of the Thousand Sons. It left the strongest sorcerers intact to act as masters over the rest of the Legion. Considering the origins discussed so far, I'd say whoever was sent off-world during the purge was likely a high ranking Psycher. But more importantly than that 2) he was likely out of range and out of the thick of the Warp and far from reach of the Rubric. as is. That's an easy one actually. Also, I'll bold another part you avoided while cherry picking your quote. lol They probably weren't afflicted with the curse.

About the "mysterious" and "cursed" founding, or perhaps anything in regards to things going wrong during that millennium. There is an event in the Chaos Space Marines codex that depicts an event where psykers just start exploding all over the Imperium, overnight. Literally, the entire universe of mans worth of potential psykers became master psykers in one night. Furthermore, the it is suggested over and again in the Heresy and in Chaos related materials that the Emperor has basically abused gifts given to him by the Chaos Gods, which he was threatening to use to destroy them with (really wish I can find these specific quotes, but I'm working on a giant thread to explain these plothooks). If this is the case, then everything that the Emperor has touched, is tainted, including his beloved Space Marines and their Gene-seed, Primogenator Glands, etc. So it's only a matter of time before they too find the seeds of Chaos blooming from within. And who is to say that it isn't the work of the Alpha Legion that sabotaged the 21st founding? That's one of those defeats the Inquisition would keep under wraps. As much a secret as say....the Blood Ravens being of Thousand Sons stock? The most powerful psychic stock in the whole repository of the WH40K universe? And after all their studying and hounding of Ahriman and his "ultimate objectives," do you think they might've uncovered his secret too? Or perhaps Magnus' for that matter?

That the Blood Ravens are to be groomed to undo their dark history, and truly be free and purged of the taint that has plagued them since before the Heresy? Because as you read more and more into the Thousand Sons, all sides in fact, (Magnus, Ahriman, Amon, etc.) they are all actively rebelling against the imposed will of Tzeentch. So daring are they, that they would seek to undo Tzeentch himself. Something that no other Chaos Legion is trying to do.

The Blood Ravens are little more than THQ's special snowflake, mysterious origins fan-fiction chapter, so anything is possible, lol.

However I doubt, now that THQ is kaput, that GW will ever openly describe the background to the Blood Ravens.

squidhills wrote:
I don't think BR are "loyalist" Thousand Sons left over from the Heresy. If they were, they would suffer from the same flesh change problems that dogged them back in the day. If Tzeentch was the cause of the flesh change, why would he stop afflicting the "loyalist" 1k Kiddies after getting most of the Legion on his side? Why not keep fething with them for shiggles? Or until they too turned? For that matter, why didn't the Rubric of Ahriman zap the "loyalist" BR into dust, if it affected "all" Thousand Sons afflicted with the curse?

The answer is: the 21st Founding. GW has long used this "mysterious" and "cursed" founding to excuse any wacky ideas for SM somebody comes up with. I believe that the BR were created from Thousand Sons gene-seed in the 21st Founding. Remember, there is a lot of speculation (in-universe) that some crazy gene-tampering went on with the geneseed used in the founding, because many of the SM created by it mutated, went insane, exploded, or all three. The Lamenters (for some reason) seemed completely 'cured' of the Black Rage and Red Thirst (until very recently, allegedly). Obviously, somebody jiggered their DNA. Why couldn't the Admech diddle with some 1k Kiddie geneseed and try to correct the flesh change flaw? It's totally possible, and the records from that era were sealed/purged/unmade by the powers that be, so its clear they have something to hide... New SM chapters made with altered traitor geneseed? That's something I'd want to cover up.

It's far more likely that the BR came from the 21st Founding, rather than the Horus Heresy. Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that the BR are Thousand Sons descendants at all... but that's mostly because C. S. Goto says they are, and that man is straight up crazy.

problem with the 21st founding theory is that it's a little too late to be a founding for the blood ravens. whose history it has been suggested is prior

I don't think that the Blood Ravens are of the same gene seed as the Thousand Sons for several of the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.
However I feel that the Blood Ravens may have had contact with or been joined by a renamed Revuel Arvida ( in much the same way as a newly minted chapter usually gets leaders and or instructors from more experienced chapters or such even though they are not of the same gene source ) so that some of the practices of the Corvidae Cult worked their way into the fledgling chapter.

 Zakiriel wrote:
I don't think that the Blood Ravens are of the same gene seed as the Thousand Sons for several of the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.
However I feel that the Blood Ravens may have had contact with or been joined by a renamed Revuel Arvida ( in much the same way as a newly minted chapter usually gets leaders and or instructors from more experienced chapters or such even though they are not of the same gene source ) so that some of the practices of the Corvidae Cult worked their way into the fledgling chapter.

I think this is potentially a viable solution. It would explain how some Marines can be psykers after recieving Geneseed, as it came from the renamed Arvida (or Azariah Vidya sp?), where others don't because they came from the "Blood Raven pure" stock.

But that still begs the question; where did the rest come from?

 Deadshot wrote:

 Zakiriel wrote:
I don't think that the Blood Ravens are of the same gene seed as the Thousand Sons for several of the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.
However I feel that the Blood Ravens may have had contact with or been joined by a renamed Revuel Arvida ( in much the same way as a newly minted chapter usually gets leaders and or instructors from more experienced chapters or such even though they are not of the same gene source ) so that some of the practices of the Corvidae Cult worked their way into the fledgling chapter.

I think this is potentially a viable solution. It would explain how some Marines can be psykers after recieving Geneseed, as it came from the renamed Arvida (or Azariah Vidya sp?), where others don't because they came from the "Blood Raven pure" stock.

But that still begs the question; where did the rest come from?

That would be my main problem as well. After reading over some of these, it may be possible that the last of the Thousand Sons did directly found the Blood Ravens but I still think they are connected to the Thousand Sons in some way and that a large part of it would be through their gene-seed since psykers just sprout up like daisies. And I definitely think that Revuel Arvida had something to do with the founding as well. There will always be apart of me that wants it to be the direct line from the Thousand Sons since they are my favorite pre-Heresy Legion. There story is one of the more tragic falls to Chaos and a part of me wants to believe some remnant got out to continue to serve the Imperium, much like the Garro carried on the last loyal Death Guard.

Da krimson barun wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
There is no doubt that the 1k sons are the primogenitor of the ravens, black library author even said he couldn't believe how many hints had been dropped and people still aren't getting it, for me the last book was so bleeding obvious it was like putting up a giant neon sign with massive arrows saying "get yer thousand sons here"

Its by C.S Goto so it doesn't count.Yo dawg multilasers on multilasers on land raiders!

No it wasnt?? C.S goto wasnt hadnt been involved with GW when the book i mentioned came out, for like... 4-5 years.

 Formosa wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
There is no doubt that the 1k sons are the primogenitor of the ravens, black library author even said he couldn't believe how many hints had been dropped and people still aren't getting it, for me the last book was so bleeding obvious it was like putting up a giant neon sign with massive arrows saying "get yer thousand sons here"

Its by C.S Goto so it doesn't count.Yo dawg multilasers on multilasers on land raiders!

No it wasnt?? C.S goto wasnt hadnt been involved with GW when the book i mentioned came out, for like... 4-5 years.

Technically 3 years. Goto finished the last of the Dawn of War books in 2006 and then Chris Roberson took over in 2009 for the Dawn of War 2 book.

Its not by goto?Pass me the 40k approved stamp then!

Just my two cents regarding why the Blood Ravens aren't affected by the flesh-change: it's just Tzeentch goading Magnus. They both know the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons, but the thing is, so long as they don't actually know/acknowledge this, the flesh-change won't affect them. And among the Primarchs, Magnus was actually among the closest to his sons. So he can do nothing more than watch from a distance as the last of his sons live in ignorance - which is even more amusing for Tzeentch seeing as the so-called seekers of truth can't even so the truth of themselves - or face destruction at the hands of the Inquisition or be twisted by Tzeentch...again.

 Formosa wrote:
There is no doubt that the 1k sons are the primogenitor of the ravens, black library author even said he couldn't believe how many hints had been dropped and people still aren't getting it, for me the last book was so bleeding obvious it was like putting up a giant neon sign with massive arrows saying "get yer thousand sons here"

Anyone who still thinks otherwise amazes me, I admit the reasons and fluff are shoddilly done and seen hamfisted in, but it's there however badly implemented.

If you are talking about Goto, he has a... questionable grasp of 40K fluff and continuity.

We've answered those questions, but you do extend into some other points which I can clear up. Tzeentch was the cause of the flesh change to force Magnus and Ahriman into the Warp. Mission accomplished. Why did he stop?

Not quite. The 1KS started suffering the Flesh Change long before they found Magnus. Magnus was not directly involved in this curse affecting his Legion, though he was instrumental in stopping it in those who had not fallen too far. When the GC found Prospero, the Thousand Sons Legion left the planet with their Primarch and one thousand surviving Marines, the rest having fallen too far to the Flesh Change.

And suppose Tzeentch does know about the Blood Ravens; The Blood Ravens are not so closely bound to the Warp as the Thousand Sons before are. In fact, one could argue they're probably as far from any warp storm as possible.

They've been on worlds that had Warp-Storms arriving while they were present on two separate occasions, but that's irrelevant, as a Warp Storm is just one aspect of the Warp. One does not need to be in a hurricane to be near to Earth's atmosphere.

Tzeentch got what he wanted from Magnus, which elated him, and now he's too busy poking at Ahriman and giggling to himself to notice that Magnus cut off an arm called the Blood Ravens that will truly liberate the entire Legion Thousand Sons

This is not how Tzeentch operates. They call him the Architect of Fate for a reason, as he knows the fates of every living creature in the galaxy. To suggest that he doesn't know that the Blood Ravens exist, when one of his own Sorcerer Lords battled them in DoW1 is.... a poorly-considered position.

problem with the 21st founding theory is that it's a little too late to be a founding for the blood ravens. whose history it has been suggested is prior

21st Founding is M36, just before the Age of Apostasy. That is well within the realm of plausibility for the Founding of the Blood Ravens, especially as we are not provided with a specific century or year of the event within that thousand-year span, though this would probably be the first half of the millennium, given that we know the arc of Vandire's reign and Sebastian Thor's rebellion.

That's one of those defeats the Inquisition would keep under wraps. As much a secret as say....the Blood Ravens being of Thousand Sons stock? The most powerful psychic stock in the whole repository of the WH40K universe? And after all their studying and hounding of Ahriman and his "ultimate objectives," do you think they might've uncovered his secret too? Or perhaps Magnus' for that matter?

Again, this is not how the Inquisition functions. It is not a unified body. It does not have a council of Lord Inquisitors sitting around, reading reports and files, nodding their august heads and directing the entire Inquisition to do this thing, that thing or this other thing. It's more like the British Parliament, with meetings breaking down into fist-fights, shadow-wars being fought between the forces of one Inquisitor against those of another, accusations of heresy flying back and forth between Puritans and Radicals, Istvaanian Inquisitors triggering massive wars, from the shadows, within the Imperium to forge, from the flames of battle, a stronger, tempered Imperium.... it's a crazy, and crazy-dangerous, place to work.

A secret founding of a Chapter of Space Marines from Traitor Legion gene-stock, especially a secret that has been kept for at least 3,000 years, is not something that even the Inquisition is capable of doing, not internally. While such a secret could be kept from the Chapter itself, the High Lords of Terra, and other Space Marine Chapters, it could not be kept from factions within the Inquisition, and at this stage, the BR would be the pawns of some faction of the Inquisition, and probably a Radical one, considering how many Greater Daemons they have let out into the galaxy, and how many conflicts they have had with other Imperial factions. I would assume their strings are being pulled by an Istvaanian Inquisitoral faction, some cabal of particularly nasty sorts that will stop at nothing to see their goals fulfilled....

.... excepting, of course, that the canonical end of Soulstorm is an IG victory, the Blood Ravens having been defeated (and, if the dialog in later games is to be believed, having died to a man).

I was going to quote, but it would take me to long to tailor it down so here is a point by point (since most of that was mine and not Formosa's, lol)

1. If the Space Marine chapters are built from their Primarchs gene-seed, then regardless of where the 1K Sons were, they still had a direct link to Magnus (despite distance) and more importantly, to Magnus' talents as a Psyker, which are tied directly to the warp. So the flesh change could've started without Magnus, but then remember (as you said so yourself) we are dealing with the Architect of Fate.

2. True enough, but I'd argue that there is a major difference in effect between just being caught up in a warp storm and being swallowed up by the Eye of Terror itself. There are numerous allusions to this, or that being farther from the center will affect you less while being right in the heart will turn your bones to glass and skin to slime. So, while it's not entirely indicative, I'd say there is still a considerably range of affect that isn't hitting the Blood Ravens nearly as hard as the 1K Sons before.

3: Allow me to expand a bit further since it seems I did not paint this picture clear enough. Consider you are Tzeentch and your attention is on this proud-stand called Magnus and his favored son. And while you are playing with Magnus, you realize that Magnus is playing back, and how cute considering you are the master of this game.

But what if he got one over on you? What if Magnus knew his fate, and was certain enough of the fate of Ahriman. What if, while you were too busy Conspiring, that the one you conspired against was also conspiring against you.

See, the only way this works out in my mind is if you concede the fact that Magnus is at least somewhat comparable to Tzeentch, which is stretching it, but if you consider what has happened so far, it seems completely do-able. And maybe Tzeentch knows about them now, but he was blinded by his hubris at the time to not realize what 10,000 year game Magnus was preparing to unleash, and let's see where the dice fall.

Like I said, this makes more sense if you just think about Magnus and Tzeentch sitting across from eachother at a chess game. Yes, Tzeentch knows (though he doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't have cast Fateweaver into the Well of Eternity) but perhaps he didn't know at the right time, or was too busy to pay attention to the plot that was unfolding right under his nose. Or better yet; What if you did know? Wouldn't you work an even greater game to consume your rivals? This is the fleeting interest of Tzeentch at work.

Considering the forces we are talking about, it would be impossibly convoluted for any mortal (in context or out of context) to understand with as great of certainty as those currently involved in the game (Magnus, Tzeentch and Ahriman). And that is how Tzeentch operates. He plays with mortal affairs much like a child playing with a toy to see how far it'll go till it breaks.

4: Can't argue with foundings. Not that much of a beardy yet, but I'm definitely getting there with Chaos.

5. I'll concede to the point that the Imperium (and the Inquisition) are anything but unified, however when you consider the distances discussed in 40k and how things seem to go, you can't say for certain that every Inquisitorial branch is going to be all up in everything at all times.

Just like there are entire sectors of the Imperium that haven't even discovered fire yet, there are probably entire sectors of the Imperium that know next to nothing (and probably care even less) about the Blood Ravens so long as one of the Operandi are functioning and keeping an eye.

In fact, the insanity of the Imperium would ensure that secret stays buried to only those who would ever need to know, and probably keeps the Blood Ravens boxed into their sectors as well.

But going off of Soulstorm, you can't take that as Cannon. Simply put, they made a DoW2 where the Blood Ravens die in nearly every instance except their own, I think....although I'm not even certain of that right now. Tempted to fire up DoW2 just to find out now. lol

But saying that because the Left hand doesn't know what the Right hand is doing, is why the Blood Ravens exist, sounds more like a cop-out than creatively insinuating that they are 1KSons descended.

There is always the ultimate defeator here though in that: 1) It is a work of fiction and subject to change at the drop of an authors hat and 2) the 40k universe is to big to be built on certainty.

Better to speculate based on what is given, than what is not. Ya'mean?

Multi-quoting on these forums is... challenging.


A more-likely cause of the Flesh Change in the pre-Magnus Thousand Sons is the incidents of Warp Storm activity that occurred in the Sol System during the Founding of the Legion. Magnus would later comment that this was a really bad sign. It would also seem, based on the events on Prospero when Magnus was discovered, that it was the Emperor's presence that prevented the Flesh Change from taking over the Legion, to the point that Magnus was able to save only 1,000 of them. Of course, Tzeentch says that *he* was what allowed Magnus to do this... but, then again, Tzeentch says a lot of things, and he always says them in a way that tells you what you want to hear. What Tzeentch is *actually* saying is for only the insane to decipher.

The "canon" ending of Soulstorm is revealed to us by Cyrus, in DoW2. In the cutscene, he does a verbal grimace and admits that Kaurava was "a mistake"...

9103259 Avitus and Tarkus served on Kronus, but not you Cyrus.

9103260 No. I was assigned to train scouts for Captain Boreale's campaign in the Kaurava System.

9103261 Why so? Obviously you all know something. What happened to Captain Boreale?

9103262 The Kaurava Campaign did not go well.
9103263 Kaurava left the chapter dangerously undermanned.
9103264 A blight on our history.
9103265 Kaurava was a huge mistake. I will not speak of it again.
9103268 Boreale and many others died there – including most of my Scouts.

9107445 This fine relic was meant to go to Captain Indrick Boreale when he returned victorious from the Conquest of Kaurava. But Kaurava was not conquered – at least not by the Blood Ravens – and Boreale was lost to the chapter in that bloody conflict.

That's the script from the DoW2 game files for the scene.

No one "gets one over" on Tzeentch. If you think you're "getting one over" on Tzeentch, that means that things are going "just as planned". Tzeentch plots for plotting's sake. He already knows where these plots will go. He knows the outcome of every battle before he fights it. There is no end-game for him, the plot's the thing.

If you are sitting across from Tzeentch at a game of chess, you lose before you take the first move, because suddenly you're playing three-dimensional Vulcan Battle-Chess, the the board is invisible and the pieces can only be seen in infra-red or on the second Thursday of any month ending in the letter "Thootolos".