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Some airlines already do, and it depends on how much you pay for things and accept, id rather them charge me for bits i need and new extras if i want them. At the end of the day nothing is free in life but they aren't asking for a lot

The Bel'Akor supplement is pretty good. Read it last night. Could have used a little more story, but the guy is my kind of evil. His stats certainly don't suck, either. But he's a major point sink.

weeble1000 wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Remember when GW used to put up Apocalypse Datasheets? Campaign articles from WD? All of spear head? The Blood Angel WD Codex? Remember how these things were free?

They were, after a time. You had to initially pay for that stuff by buying the WD, which wasn't a perfect solution either.

That doesn't actually answer my question though. GW is a business. Unless you can come up with an argument on how free content of this variety increases sales in other areas, I don't see why they should not charge for it.

If McDonalds started charging a premium to sit down and eat your food in the restaurant, would you think that is reasonable?

If a taxi driver charged you 2 dollars extra per mile to turn on the AC, would you think that is reasonable?

If your gym started charging you an extra fee to use the showers, would you think that is reasonable?

If Wal-mart charged you a fee to play the pro-mo PS4, would you think that is reasonable?

If the grocery store started charging for samples, would you think that is reasonable?

If airlines started charging you a fee to check your bags...yea, nobody is happy about that are they?

Why expend such a lot of energy getting angry/upset about something that GW have done, essentially just for fun?

They won't make a fortune out of this; surprise, surprise, some of the rules will be cool, some of the digital products will be meh.

Charging for the tactica is like charging for a magazine article. That's what practically every magazine publisher does. There are new agencies set up specifically to market old features and articles to subscribers and libraries. It's IP - people are expected to pay for it.

Yes, GW used to give away some of this stuff for free. In fact, they still do - but as we've seen, the thread on the free Tactical Marines painting guide drew around three pages of comments, whereas threads complaining about something that costs a couple of bucks grow to eight or nine pages. Strange that.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Remember when GW used to put up Apocalypse Datasheets? Campaign articles from WD? All of spear head? The Blood Angel WD Codex? Remember how these things were free?

They were, after a time. You had to initially pay for that stuff by buying the WD, which wasn't a perfect solution either.

That doesn't actually answer my question though. GW is a business. Unless you can come up with an argument on how free content of this variety increases sales in other areas, I don't see why they should not charge for it.

If McDonalds started charging a premium to sit down and eat your food in the restaurant, would you think that is reasonable?

If a taxi driver charged you 2 dollars extra per mile to turn on the AC, would you think that is reasonable?

If your gym started charging you an extra fee to use the showers, would you think that is reasonable?

If Wal-mart charged you a fee to play the pro-mo PS4, would you think that is reasonable?

If the grocery store started charging for samples, would you think that is reasonable?

If airlines started charging you a fee to check your bags...yea, nobody is happy about that are they?

Why expend such a lot of energy getting angry/upset about something that GW have done, essentially just for fun?

They won't make a fortune out of this; surprise, surprise, some of the rules will be cool, some of the digital products will be meh.

Charging for the tactica is like charging for a magazine article. That's what practically every magazine publisher does. There are new agencies set up specifically to market old features and articles to subscribers and libraries. It's IP - people are expected to pay for it.

Yes, GW used to give away some of this stuff for free. In fact, they still do - but as we've seen, the thread on the free Tactical Marines painting guide drew around three pages of comments, whereas threads complaining about something that costs a couple of bucks grow to eight or nine pages. Strange that.

Who said I was at all angry or upset? I just think it's silly. I stopped buying GW products years ago, so this is no sweat off of my back other than the LOLs. If GW wants to flush its business down the proverbial toilet, more power to them.

Think about this for a minute, will you. I don't think anyone is saying GW shouldn't be able to charge for this next to worthless stuff, just that the market is competitive and GW charging 4 dollars for this advent calendar glorified DLC could very well put off plenty of its customers, who don't want to be charged for this kind of material. GW is begging for revenue with this. It is an act of apparent desperation, not the act of a happy company rolling in the Benjamins. If my Gym told me I had to pay 4 dollars to use the showers I'd laugh and go find another gym.

What US airline is doing really well at the moment...oh yea, Southwest, the airline that doesn't charge for checked luggage. GW wants to sell models, and rules sell models. The harder GW makes it to acquire and use the rules, the fewer model sales GW will make because less people will be playing the game. We have been seeing it happening for going on 5 years now. GW is looking for more and more and more ways to squeeze blood out of a stone, and is stripping the walls bare selling the same material to its existing customers over and over again. There was nothing new in that Sisters E-Dex, for example. It's just regurgitated material that already exists.

GW is trying to find any way it can to sell what it already has on hand, regardless of the reaction it gets from customers. Why would a company do that?

weeble1000 wrote:
It is an act of apparent desperation, not the act of a happy company rolling in the Benjamins. If my Gym told me I had to pay 4 dollars to use the showers I'd laugh and go find another gym.
GW is trying to find any way it can to sell what it already has on hand, regardless of the reaction it gets from customers. Why would a company do that?

That might well be true. But it isn't in this instance. They are charging small amounts, for something of small value. There's no evidence it's an attempt to make a fortune.

Your analogy also fails, because GW are not requiring you to spend the money for the service, as in charging you for the showers. They are selling an extra accessory, one which is not necessary to participate. It is like offering you a back rub at your gym, extra perfumed soap or a logo'd swimming cap.

In my interaction with GW people, some of them are (a) company drones who only want to sell you stuff, while some of them are (b) enthusiasts who like cool stuff. I know some people like to suggest the staff comprises purely group a, but there's plenty of evidence that there remains a group b, too.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
It is an act of apparent desperation, not the act of a happy company rolling in the Benjamins. If my Gym told me I had to pay 4 dollars to use the showers I'd laugh and go find another gym.
GW is trying to find any way it can to sell what it already has on hand, regardless of the reaction it gets from customers. Why would a company do that?

That might well be true. But it isn't in this instance. They are charging small amounts, for something of small value. There's no evidence it's an attempt to make a fortune.

Your analogy also fails, because GW are not requiring you to spend the money for the service, as in charging you for the showers. They are selling an extra accessory, one which is not necessary to participate. It is like offering you a back rub at your gym, extra perfumed soap or a logo'd swimming cap.

In my interaction with GW people, some of them are (a) company drones who only want to sell you stuff, while some of them are (b) enthusiasts who like cool stuff. I know some people like to suggest the staff comprises purely group a, but there's plenty of evidence that there remains a group b, too.

It does not fail. I don't have to shower at the gym, but I expect to be able to shower at a gym as part of my membership fee, and at my particular gym I do get to use the showers as part of my membership. If my gym suddenly decided to charge for something I was otherwise getting included in my membership fee, well then I would be unhappy about that and go to a competitor who chooses to not charge for the showers. If you like, we can call it soap in the showers, or locker use, or anything else you want.

No analogy is perfect, and you can't take them very far. The point is that GW used to provide this type of material for free, because it was financially beneficial for the company to do so. Note that GW provided this content for free when the company was growing every single year. Now, the company is not growing and GW has changed its behavior and started charging for this material. GW has changed not only an established pattern of behavior, but is flouting conventions of the market. No matter how you slice it, doing something like that will come at the cost of valuable goodwill. The question is whether the loss of goodwill will be offset by the increase in revenue. GW may very well not care at all about answering that question, and may be solely interested in the short term gains created by selling something that it had not sold before.

It's really pretty simple, and you don't need to overcomplicate it.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Remember when GW used to put up Apocalypse Datasheets? Campaign articles from WD? All of spear head? The Blood Angel WD Codex? Remember how these things were free?

They were, after a time. You had to initially pay for that stuff by buying the WD, which wasn't a perfect solution either.

That doesn't actually answer my question though. GW is a business. Unless you can come up with an argument on how free content of this variety increases sales in other areas, I don't see why they should not charge for it.

Oh the irony of such a statement coming from someone named HMV...

That is comedy right there.

weeble1000 wrote:
No analogy is perfect, and you can't take them very far. The point is that GW used to provide this type of material for free, because it was financially beneficial for the company to do so. Note that GW provided this content for free when the company was growing every single year. Now, the company is not growing and GW has changed its behavior and started charging for this material. GW has changed not only an established pattern of behavior, but is flouting conventions of the market. No matter how you slice it, doing something like that will come at the cost of valuable goodwill. The question is whether the loss of goodwill will be offset by the increase in revenue. GW may very well not care at all about answering that question, and may be solely interested in the short term gains created by selling something that it had not sold before.

It's really pretty simple, and you don't need to overcomplicate it.

I think the part I bolded for emphasis is key. That said.. it's not a universal loss of goodwill amongst the playerbase either (not that you're claiming that) as some people see this stuff as a fan service and not a transition from free to paid DLC. Years ago they used to provide demon lord stats for free like with Angron... now they charge for Belakor.

Some people need that Riptide tactica. They are certainly not as point-and-click as people say, as evident during my games vs. less-experienced players using Tau and Eldar over the weekend.

Here's hoping for some cult terminator rules or something. I've got 5 terminators on stand by and I haven't put combi-plas/melta on them for just such a hope.

Okay so if they made rules for the Tau Empire Firebase Support Cadre one could assume that they will make them for the Eldar Ghost Warriors. If so, then we should get a nice positive out of this. I know a lot of Tau players have ditched using Wraithlords because of the Wraithknight. With a Dataslate: Eldar Ghost Warriors I would bet we could get a Wraithknight, 2 Wraithlords, and of course 15 wraithguards outside of the FOC.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh the irony of such a statement coming from someone named HMV...

That is comedy right there.

My nick refers to a record label. I have very fond memories of my grandfather's vinyl collection, which happened to include a number of their discs. My avatar is a logo they used.

Was the petty snipe really necessary?

Painful.. but I suspect the majority of players will not take advantage of that.

For example, there are a few competitive players who only play Eldar instead of including Tau. They are aware of the options, but they make a choice to keep things simple.

Yep, there will be the few people who go all out.

 Brometheus wrote:
Some people need that Riptide tactica. They are certainly not as point-and-click as people say, as evident during my games vs. less-experienced players using Tau and Eldar over the weekend.

Here's hoping for some cult terminator rules or something. I've got 5 terminators on stand by and I haven't put combi-plas/melta on them for just such a hope.

I'm not sure if you are serious or not.......
Even if you need a Riptide Tactica you are one step away from google...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Riptide+Tactica

Blah blah blah, crap crap crap...show me the Cypher!! Then I'll buy in to this stuff!

I must say the 'Riptide Tactica' is comical, should have at least made THAT item free.

I can see charging for Bel'Akor although that kind of defeats the purpose of not being a rules company if you charge $3.50 for a single unit's rules....even if accompanied by 20min of work on fluff...right?

 Brometheus wrote:
Some people need that Riptide tactica. They are certainly not as point-and-click as people say, as evident during my games vs. less-experienced players using Tau and Eldar over the weekend.

Here's hoping for some cult terminator rules or something. I've got 5 terminators on stand by and I haven't put combi-plas/melta on them for just such a hope.

Unfortunately it's pretty obvious that most of these mini-rule additions are designed to push model sales for units that have models but no real rules.. or for splash release boxsets. Chaos Terminators do not fall under this, and there are no special cult terminator models really (non-FW). I don't think GW is giving people rules strictly to fill holes in the codex fluff.. its designed to sell *specific* models.

I say, look through their old models and then see which ones might have excess inventory That's the real reason.

I guess I am in the minority here...

In my opinion, and everyone may disagree, I LOVE THESE DIGITAL RELEASES.

I will gladly pay 4 dollars for a set of rules and some fluff for a 40k special character like Be'lakor. In general, the idea of getting to expand your armies, to keep your codex from getting stale over time, is EXACTLY what I want.

Also, microtransactions are nothing new. video games have done it for years. And guess what... it WORKS, which is why other industries are following suit. It works for the manufacture because they get a nice constant revenue stream, and it works for consumers because we can pick and choose what we want to pay for. Remember, these rules are optional. You can literally ignore them if you don't want to play with them.

If you play against a new unit/formation, just have your opponent show you the rules before hand so you aren't surprised.

Everything I said applies to the dataslates and formations, NOT to escalation, which I do believe is a bit of a different animal. I believe Escalation should only be played if both parties have superheavies (thats how I would play it).

I am super excited to get more and more options for my army. This december thing is probaby just a test run. If it goes well, I wouldn't be surprised if they used dataslates in the future to introduce brand new models to a codex.

I understand the points of view of all those who are against all the content being in so many different sources, and those who feel "Tau doesn't need more riptides". But all this has me excited for 40k, not afraid.

Again, just my opinion, and I respect all those with the opposing point of view.

AhrimansBolter wrote:
I guess I am in the minority here...

In my opinion, and everyone may disagree, I LOVE THESE DIGITAL RELEASES.

I
Also, microtransactions are nothing new. video games have done it for years. And guess what... it WORKS....

I had a very interesting conversation this weekend with a GW nut, who gave us all his old 2nd edition Eldar.

He was looking at the current model range, and was enthusing about the range available now, far more models, far more options, to an extent that was absolutely unthinkable when he built up his collection. He was happy to see that his old game is still popular and the company is doing well.

I didn't explain that the fact GW has hired more designers and is producing more models per year, and producing more new rules, is in fact a sign of "desperation".

AhrimansBolter wrote:
Remember, these rules are optional. You can literally ignore them if you don't want to play with them.

If you play against a new unit/formation, just have your opponent show you the rules before hand so you aren't surprised.

The three sentances above in a row from your post are mutually exclusive. You can't just ignore them if your opponent uses them in a typical pick up game scenario as they are valid GW rules with no disclaimers (unlike FW books). In the social contract that is a pick up game versus a stranger, the unwritten rule is that anything that is optional is out unless approved and anything that isn't listed as optional is in. You can always draw a line in the sand and refuse to play that particular opponent using that particular unit but at that point the "jerk" onus goes to you (as opposed to staying with them if they're trying to "force" optional rules on you). I don't think anyone has an issue with digital releases in general as GW has used that route for over a decade but you'd think/hope/wonder if they learned their lesson during the old Chapter Approved days when things weren't optional (like this stuff) and then switched to optional midway because they didn't have any semblance of balance or fairness. Of course, if they were optional, I'd suspect less people would pay money for them which is why they're not.

I'm quite happy to use Be'lakor and pay for cheese , for a start he looks dark. Better then the steroid injected plastic play mobile type DP's GW normally sell.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh the irony of such a statement coming from someone named HMV...

That is comedy right there.

My nick refers to a record label. I have very fond memories of my grandfather's vinyl collection, which happened to include a number of their discs. My avatar is a logo they used.

Was the petty snipe really necessary?

There was no real snipe I can see, just a missed reference in your part. HMV, as well as being a record label, were/are also a chain of music/videogame/movie retailers, who, for the sake of brevity, have been "struggling financially" in recent years.

Would be obvious to a UK resident, perhaps this one just didn't cross the border?

 warboss wrote:

AhrimansBolter wrote:
Remember, these rules are optional. You can literally ignore them if you don't want to play with them.

If you play against a new unit/formation, just have your opponent show you the rules before hand so you aren't surprised.

The three sentances above in a row from your post are mutually exclusive. You can't just ignore them if your opponent uses them in a typical pick up game scenario as they are valid GW rules with no disclaimers (unlike FW books). In the social contract that is a pick up game versus a stranger, the unwritten rule is that anything that is optional is out unless approved and anything that isn't listed as optional is in. You can always draw a line in the sand and refuse to play that particular opponent using that particular unit but at that point the "jerk" onus goes to you (as opposed to staying with them if they're trying to "force" optional rules on you). I don't think anyone has an issue with digital releases in general as GW has used that route for over a decade but you'd think/hope/wonder if they learned their lesson during the old Chapter Approved days when things weren't optional (like this stuff) and then switched to optional midway because they didn't have any semblance of balance or fairness. Of course, if they were optional, I'd suspect less people would pay money for them which is why they're not.

Ha, when I say "ignore them", I mean don't use them in your army. I don't mean "never play against anyone who uses them".

With the releases so far (Be'lakor and "Ultra Tau"), I don't see anything that I wouldn't play against. Like I said I draw the like with escalation, where superheavies to ME are a whole different category of power.

I group the Be'lakor and Tau Firebase releases with things like supplements or the Inquisition release... just a few more options for your army to keep it interesting. Yes it adds power but not to the extent that a baneblade would.

The problem I DO have is that all the rules are separated. GW needs to make a way to simply add these releases to your digital codex. So rather than download, say, a Be'lakor rules file by itself, it should also add him to the HQ section of your digital codex. I would still pay the 3.99, but at least make it free to additionally update your digital codex. I hope they eventually go this route.

 azreal13 wrote:
There was no real snipe I can see, just a missed reference in your part. HMV, as well as being a record label, were/are also a chain of music/videogame/movie retailers, who, for the sake of brevity, have been "struggling financially" in recent years.

Would be obvious to a UK resident, perhaps this one just didn't cross the border?

I know what HMV is.

yeah,
Dual Service is the way forward.
They need to link up digital and hard copies, so it's less of a choice.
It shouldn't be one or the other...
And I don't know anyone who is going to buy the same codex twice?

for example.
Amazon.co.uk
I bought a CD from them and got a email saying I could listen to it right now.
Amazon have a cloud service. I didn't have to wait for the CD.
I didn't even have to wait for a download.
I could instantly listen to it and the CD arrives in the post a few days later.

Bonus. The first time I loaded up the amazon cloud player and logged in.
Surprise ... you have 106 albums ready to listen to.
Awesome! they basically went through my purchase history and added those albums to the service too.
I can listen to the last 5 years worth of purchases online anywhere (ie... at work. lovely.)

Now I'm planning on making all future purchases on amazon so i get them added to the cloud and I'm already planning on upgrading the account and moving my mp3s to their cloud...

So while they gave me something for nothing it will pay off as I will stick with them.

++
Now if GW tried this out?
Imagine digital copies of codexs included with paper back copies, if bought from the GW webstore...
Imagine if digital codexs cost £10...
Imagine if GW gave us a 5 page download for free... (we still need to buy the mini!)

Imagine how happy we would be?

or have alook at what happens when they decide to squeeze the joy out the Hobby during the festive season...

Panic...

The more I think about escalation the more I like it. I have 4 super heavy tanks and I have only been able to play with one of them once. But now I could grab my Stormdoomhellshadowbaneswordbladehammerlord and let my roommate use the one of my other Stormdoomhellshadowbaneswordbladehammerlords. I also have a friend that wants to face a list with one or two super heavies in it.

As long as it isn't done in a tournament than I don't really see what the problem is. Just don't play against that person. Or see if your up against the challenge of taking out a super heavy with a non-apoc list.

 azreal13 wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Oh the irony of such a statement coming from someone named HMV...

That is comedy right there.

My nick refers to a record label. I have very fond memories of my grandfather's vinyl collection, which happened to include a number of their discs. My avatar is a logo they used.

Was the petty snipe really necessary?

There was no real snipe I can see, just a missed reference in your part. HMV, as well as being a record label, were/are also a chain of music/videogame/movie retailers, who, for the sake of brevity, have been "struggling financially" in recent years.

Would be obvious to a UK resident, perhaps this one just didn't cross the border?

This.

If someone made a similar comment and was called "Blockbuster" for example, I'd make the same quip.

I think its interesting they are charging for this, from a copyright law standpoint.

That said, the reason I find it interesting is you are supposed to share the rules for units/etc you are using with your opponent, often people will make a print out of their things for an opponent, so I can see a lot of people acquiring the digital rules for free through people they are playing using said rules and having to share.

Given the rules are quite short, its not hard to take a screen cap, print, and or just write them down.

That again of course now that I am thinking of it will also be a playing problem because if someone writes it down or shows up with a print/screen cap that is edited they could cheat....ahh gaming... :(

Anyone can cheat at anything is the thing.. Might as well not even leave your house! Even life itself cheats you ..just gotta have some faith that most won't cheat for inane reasons.

If they do, well it's easy to catch them.

Can we have a separate thread for complaining and have this thread on actual discussion of the new rules and tactics from the advent release please?

 agnosto wrote:
Other than the obvious selling of models by strengthening the rules for said models... exactly why some companies provide rules for free.

I still have the old chapter approved kroot mercenary army list. It had fluff, background info from the author and design notes, all provided for free on the GW website.

This is very true. There are a variety of smaller companies that provide free access to all of their rules online, include regular updates and errata, and even have a forum where actual developers provide official rulings on questions. They do this specifically to boost the sales of their miniatures. These services are viewed as an acceptable loss-leader to drive business to their miniature lines.

The problem i see with these releases are in the likes of

"Oh you and your friend bought the same mini's from us for the same cost, but what if you want to boost your army for just 4,99 ?"

This is exactly what is happening with the tau cadre release, they are basically power ups for your money and doesn't work in most computer games although i cant comment on minis. Starcraft doesn't let you start with one more worker if you but the collectors edition or you get an exclusive hero on dota which is not available to free users anytime.

I am glad that we are actually getting more product from gw, but i do think it is not far that days will come when 2 exact armies will matchup and one will crush another just because he bought 3 formation rules online.