hotsauceman1 wrote:
Many people do not consider problems with abortions, so finding him a monster is dubious.
Also it does not invalidate the good he did.

 Da Boss wrote:
The debate around this sort of issue (He was a good guy! No, he was a terrorist!) always outlines some power politics to me.

I think if you're part of a resistance movement fighting a superior force and you don't line up to fight like a conventional army, that's just dumb. You'll get wiped out. If you're fighting a superior force you have to use dirty tactics. It is not nice and not "right" in the simplistic way we usually imagine, but to me it is no more "right" for a militarily superior force to enforce it's ideology through the threat of force or "approved" force.

It's a complex topic of course, but I think being unable to accept the moral muddiness of any violence is what leads to some confused and uncomfortable stances on these issues.

It's also simply unrealistic to expect every revolutionary to be peaceful. Sometimes, (most times!) the entrenched system will not respond to peaceful protest alone.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Focusing on what he did right isn't the problem - that's a good thing, and the things Mandela did after he got out of prison should be celebrated and lauded. The problem is trying to pretend that he didn't do any of the bad stuff, or that his good acts later in life somehow excuse his younger days.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Many people do not consider problems with abortions, so finding him a monster is dubious.
Also it does not invalidate the good he did.

And the good he did does not invalidate his actions during his pre-prison years and his seeming support for other dictators. He was shown to be a noble man as he came out of prison looking not for vengeance but for reconcilliation, but the man was no saint - not before prison and not after - and there are many questionable aspects of his life that cannot be white-washed.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Focusing on what he did right isn't the problem - that's a good thing, and the things Mandela did after he got out of prison should be celebrated and lauded. The problem is trying to pretend that he didn't do any of the bad stuff, or that his good acts later in life somehow excuse his younger days.

To use the phrases of another thread: "he was just young and hanging out with the wrong crowd. He needed help and wasn't getting it"

He has been accused of being a ‘phoney’ and a ‘fake’ for using signs that nobody recognised, but the sign language interpreter at Nelson Mandela’s memorial service has now claimed he suffered a schizophrenic episode during the event and lost concentration.

Thamsanqa Jantjie held a prominent spot on the stage next to world leaders during the memorial, where his interpretations of their speeches and other announcements were beamed across the world.

He was blasted on social media as an ‘imposter’ who apparently took to the podium without any sign language qualifications and was dismissed as an ‘embarrassment’.

However, Mr Jantjie, 34, says that he was struck by a schizophrenic episode while on stage causing his mind to wander, while also hearing voices and suffering hallucinations.

‘There was nothing I could do. I was alone in a very dangerous situation. I tried to control myself and not show the world what was going on. I am very sorry, it’s the situation I found myself in,’ he told South Africa’s The Star.

The voices and images, he said, were so powerful that they blocked out what was actually being said by the speakers – but unable to leave the stage, he continued to sign.

Chief Rabbi of South Africa Warren Goldstein (L) speaks alongside a man passing himself off as a sign language interpreter (R) during a national memorial service for former South African President Nelson Mandela at the First National Bank (FNB) Stadium, also known as Soccer City, in Johannesburg, in this still image taken from video shot December 10, 2013, courtesy of the South Africa Broadcasting Corporation (SABC). The fake sign language interpreter took to the stage during the memorial for anti-apartheid leader Nelson Mandela, gesticulating gibberish before a global audience of millions and outraging deaf people across the world. While dignitaries were addressing the crowd in the 95,000-seat Soccer City stadium, the young, suited man with an official security pass round his neck produced a series of hand signals that experts said meant absolutely nothing.

‘Life is unfair. This illness is unfair. Anyone who doesn’t understand this illness will think that I’m just making this up,’ he added.

Schizophrenia is a serious and long-term psychological condition that can cause confused thoughts, delusions, and changes in behaviour.

Mr Jantjie said he did not know what triggered his attack but it could have been the gravity of the event.

Desmond Tutu’s home was burgled as he attended a memorial honouring Nelson Mandela, police in South Africa have said.

The retired archbishop’s home in Cape Town was targeted as he attended the service at a soccer stadium in the Soweto township of Johannesburg.

‘I can confirm that there was a burglary last night,’ his aide Roger Friedman said.

‘We are not able to tell exactly what was stolen, the archbishop and his wife were not at home. The house was not pillaged.’

A police spokesman added: ‘At this stage, we cannot give further details, as the investigation into the matter is still ongoing. No arrests have been made as yet.’

Speaking at the Mandela memorial yesterday, the Nobel Peace Prize winner urged South Africans to follow the anti-apartheid icon’s example.

‘I want to show the world we can come out here and celebrate the life of an icon,’ he said.

‘You must show the world that we are disciplined. I want to hear a pin drop.’

The 82-year-old’s home was also robbed in August as he and his wife slept inside. Both were unhurt.