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 Sir Arun wrote:
Yeah in 6th edition there is no hard and fast rule saying Jump infantry move 12" during the movement phase. Instead, you are given the CHOICE at the start of your movement phase to either decide for a 12" more, or a 6" move and HoW attack during charge for that turn.

When Jump units deep strike, they can't move or charge anyways though, so the jump pack wargear is not used for that turn.

Walking on from reserves, not deepstrike.
12" move, or disallowed and onky 6"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

Can you move them after tge movenent phase?
And like mentioned before: there is no requirement with the PENfor it to even be on the board. Since it and comming on from reserves hapoen at the same time, just select your rule before reserves because you can, then bring the model on.

Why are you answering my question with a question. I am not at my books atm. Does Jump infantry specify that the choice is done at the start of your turn?

Because you cant make the choice any other time.........

So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Because you cant make the choice any other time.........

Again ... im not at my books. Does jump infantry specify that the choice must be made at the start of your turn or does it not specify that?

There is still nothing being 'used' by the models. If the models or unit is not 'using' it, then it does not fall under the restriction which has been quoted.

What action does the unit take in regards to PEC at the start of the turn? If the unit is not taking an action, no special rule or ability is being 'used by the unit'.




Look at all the special rules you can't use (Tervigon spawning, Blessings, malediction, etc) all are abilities which are used by the model/unit. The read Logans rule, and the rules for Engram. There is a very definate difference, nothing is being used by the unit which is probably why Logans got a FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

Well if you want to argue semantics, here's another one for ya:

P. 73 of the Tau codex says: "At the start of the bearer's Movement phase"

P. 125 of the BRB says "...that rnust be used at the start of the turn"

Yeah, if the Crisis suits aren't the first unit that I am moving, then by the time I get to them, it is no longer the start of the turn. The Tau codex does not say I have to pick the PEN's ability at the start of the turn, so case closed.

If the Tau Codex had said "At the start of your turn,...", then you guys would be right.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

Keep dodging that you could just use the PEN before rolling for reserves, making the whole silly idea that its an ability to choose moot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:
There is still nothing being 'used' by the models. If the models or unit is not 'using' it, then it does not fall under the restriction which has been quoted.

What action does the unit take in regards to PEC at the start of the turn? If the unit is not taking an action, no special rule or ability is being 'used by the unit'.

They think player making a decision = model perfoming an action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So it is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the turn? It cannot be used later on? (The answer to both is: no - yes, the turn you arrive from reserves you ar eusing it at the start of the turn, but the ability itself does NOT have to always be used at the start of the turn. Here is the significant difference you seem to be unaware of)

Here, have some more straws.

Well if you want to argue semantics, here's another one for ya:

P. 73 of the Tau codex says: "At the start of the bearer's Movement phase"

P. 125 of the BRB says "...that rnust be used at the start of the turn"

Yeah, if the Crisis suits aren't the first unit that I am moving, then by the time I get to them, it is no longer the start of the turn. The Tau codex does not say I have to pick the PEN's ability at the start of the turn, so case closed.

If the Tau Codex had said "At the start of your turn,...", then you guys would be right.

Good call. I think thats /thread fir his argument.

It is still an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase (which IS the start of the turn) so no matter which order you pick, you still cannot use the PEN.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is still an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase (which IS the start of the turn) so no matter which order you pick, you still cannot use the PEN.

I'd like to see a page number where "a bearer's movement phase" doesn't start when you get to them, but starts simultaneously with all your others units' at the start of your turn, please.


Because if this is correct - and lets say the Crisis suits arent in reserve and thus not deepstriking but already on the table - the first thing I would have to do as a Tau player each turn is announce what ability my PEN gives, even if I am not moving my Crisis suits before others, or otherwise I cannot use it as I would already be past the "beginning of the bearer's movement phase" by the time I have moved some other units and get to my Commander.

When does the bearers movement phase begin?
My interpretation would say the bearers movement phase is your movement phase ... since start of movement phase is interchangeable with start of turn you cant use the chip when coming in from reserve.

You would have a point if it was worded "before moving" or something to that extent.

Arun - how many movement phases are there? Theres your rule quote. There isnt a movement phase per unit, but one movement phase that your untis have, and then one movement phase that the enemy unit has.

Simultaneous events are simultaneous. See: moving on from reserves and Blessings.

Arun, read the Tervigon rule for a difference between the model moving and movement phase. There is only 1 Movement Phase in your turn.

Keep dodging that you could just use the PEN before rolling for reserves, making the whole silly idea that its an ability to choose moot

Except the rules say you cannot, but your simply trolling now.

But why does it say "bearer's" and why not simply "your"? I have many codices since I collect multiple armies, and IRRC GW very seldomly uses the word "bearer" when describing wargear or special rules.

 Sir Arun wrote:
But why does it say "bearer's" and why not simply "your"? I have many codices since I collect multiple armies, and IRRC GW very seldomly uses the word "bearer" when describing wargear or special rules.

Because GWs writing is inconsistent.

Nevertheless the point is that its not like every unit has its own movement phase.

There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Personally, I do agree that start of movement phase and start of the turn are the same thing. But this is not an issue here, nothing stops a unit from being granted a special rule or ability that is a result of another rule at the start of either on the turn it arrives.

So again, to be bound by the restriction, what action is the unit (or containing models) taking?

 Nem wrote:
There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Really? Are you sure it doesn't say ability? Personally I'd make sure before I made a big bolded statement like that.

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

I bolded the word you missed.


The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

rigeld2 wrote:
The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

This bit confuses me. Are you saying that if an ability must be used, it can?

If so where is the option not to use the PEC?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

This bit confuses me. Are you saying that if an ability must be used, it can?

If so where is the option not to use the PEC?

No, I'm saying that the limitation is on abilities that MUST be used at the beginning of the movement phase.
When must the PNE be used?
When must Jump Packs be used? (Movement and assault.)

ALso - any time during the movement phase, and not just at the start.

If choosing a special rule isnt an ability granted by wargear, then can I please choose it for my chaos as well?

Okay that makes more sense now. However, the Jet/Jump pack walking in from reserve does cause an issue though. At least for me. as I use such units on outflank, and being restricted to 6" movement causes problems.

Is the 12" movement granted by a JP captured by P125?

If not, why not? and if so why?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Is the 12" movement granted by a JP captured by P125?

No. You are not required to use the jump pack at the beginning of the movement phase. You use it for movement and assaulting, meaning that it is not something that must be used at the beginning of the movement phase.

Okay, but it is a special rule as per p47, and you would have to declare that you are using it before moving the 12". And (I think it was Nos) pointed out that there is no such thing as phased movement, so that anything declared before moving a unit is considered the start of the movement phase.

So yes, while the JP can be used in other phases, (but it can't anyway because you've just arrived from reserve and can't assault) you still shouldn't be able to use it in the movement phase, because its wargear that provides a special rule which has to be declared before movement, which P125 forbids.

My head hurts!

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
So yes, while the JP can be used in other phases, (but it can't anyway because you've just arrived from reserve and can't assault) you still shouldn't be able to use it in the movement phase, because its wargear that provides a special rule which has to be declared before movement, which P125 forbids.

You're misunderstanding page 125.
If the special rule must be used at the beginning of the movement phase, you cannot use it that turn.
Since the special rule in question (jump movement) can be used at times other than the beginning of the movement phase, page 125 does not apply.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

The bolded phrase "fixes" a lot of the issues people are bringing up. PNE must be used at the start of the turn. Jump packs do not have that restriction.

 AndrewC wrote:
Okay, but it is a special rule as per p47, and you would have to declare that you are using it before moving the 12". And (I think it was Nos) pointed out that there is no such thing as phased movement, so that anything declared before moving a unit is considered the start of the movement phase.

So yes, while the JP can be used in other phases, (but it can't anyway because you've just arrived from reserve and can't assault) you still shouldn't be able to use it in the movement phase, because its wargear that provides a special rule which has to be declared before movement, which P125 forbids.

My head hurts!

Cheers

Andrew

The jump pack doesnt let you choose to use it. It lets you choose to not use it if you wish.

p47

Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish.

Note that it states that you can always choose to do that. So a jump unit CAN, in fact, use the jump packs when coming from reserve. It can also chose to not use the packs.

Okay, I'm derailing the thread.

Thank you for taking the time to answer, just to keep this post OT and not spam, I think that RAW the PEC doesnt work, but the RAI it should.

Cheers

Andrew

I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

So you admit your previous assertions were incorrect? Cool.

And can you cite somewhere - anywhere - that individual models have a movement phase? Or are you making that up as well?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

Scrambling? The rules are clear on that the start of the movement phase is the start of the turn, you just ignore them and try to distract the issue.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Really? Are you sure it doesn't say ability? Personally I'd make sure before I made a big bolded statement like that.

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

I bolded the word you missed.


The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

It does indeed say ability. The point I was making comes there on the second line in which I say the lack of focus is the unit. The point is everyone's going on about the fact an ability is used, which isn't what the restriction says. It says THE UNIT CAN NOT USE AN ABILITY. Seriously I don't think I can make this point clearer. You posted the rule right there. The unit is not using an ability is a passive choice which grants a special rule. How Logan's high thingy is a passive choice where the unit does not use an ability. The unit is not using an ability. An ability is not being used by the unit, no choice or action is placed on the unit, no interference by the unit is required.

 Nem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
There is not a restriction on an ability being used at the start of the movement phase or start of the turn. This is not what the rule says.
The restriction is on a unit using ability/special rule/power at the start of the turn or movement phase, when arriving from reserves.

Really? Are you sure it doesn't say ability? Personally I'd make sure before I made a big bolded statement like that.

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

I bolded the word you missed.


The comparison to Jumping units, etc is flawed because that is an ability that MUST be used at the start of the movement phase.

It does indeed say ability. The point I was making comes there on the second line in which I say the lack of focus is the unit.

That may be what you meant, but it's not even close to what you said. Am I supposed to read your mind through the internet?

The point is everyone's going on about the fact an ability is used, which isn't what the restriction says. It says THE UNIT CAN NOT USE AN ABILITY. Seriously I don't think I can make this point clearer. You posted the rule right there. The unit is not using an ability is a passive choice which grants a special rule. How Logan's high thingy is a passive choice where the unit does not use an ability. The unit is not using an ability. An ability is not being used by the unit, no choice or action is placed on the unit, no interference by the unit is required.

No choice by the unit? Are you sure about that?
And whether it's passive or not, the ability is used. Trying to argue using Logan's High King ability will get me asking if you put ICs in your drop pods.

Fragile wrote:
Arun, read the Tervigon rule for a difference between the model moving and movement phase. There is only 1 Movement Phase in your turn.

Keep dodging that you could just use the PEN before rolling for reserves, making the whole silly idea that its an ability to choose moot

Except the rules say you cannot, but your simply trolling now.

What rules say you cant? Google brings up many topics on this very board where its discussed that things that do not require dice to be rolled, or a target to be targeted, dont require the model to be on the board to happen. Most things just dont have any effect if the model is not on the board so are worthless to do if the model is not on the board yet.

So you are given permission "at the start of the movement phase" to choose a rule using the PEN. No restriction is present that the model must be on the board. It and reserves, by your reading of "bearers movement phase", happen simultaiously. So the player gets to choose the order. Player selects his rule for the PEN, then enters from reserve.

The "after entering from reserves" restriction then never comes into play as the rule was selected before it used the reserve rules.


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Fragile wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".

Scrambling? The rules are clear on that the start of the movement phase is the start of the turn, you just ignore them and try to distract the issue.

of the bearers movement phase....

There's a big difference between the model, who is the bearer, and the players entire armies movement phase.
One lets you move other models around before happening, and the other occurs before anything moves.