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Honestly, what I dont like in 40k and what puts people off playing it, from my experince, is removing models off the table with no way to save them, be it Tau gun lines shooting guard off with ignores cover and massed shooting, low ap attacks in combat etc, no one likes to do that. And that will happen a lot with D weapons. It will become a arms race but who will win is whoever has the best super heavy, ala apoc. If I wanted to play Apoc I would but I dont. It will make cookie cutter lists worse.

Siphen wrote:
Check page 121. Super-heavy walkers are super-heavy vehicles and use the rules for shooting, vehicle damage, etc...

To all those people claiming that we just need to bring better suited lists...please show us what you're talking about. We've mentioned that Necron Flyers and FMC Spam can stand a chance (only because they can't be hit by those blasts). What else?
Jy2 should have played a better list? Like what? What changes would you make to his list to make it stronger against something like that?

Same what we beat Screamerstar, jetseerer star, paladins, etc... Ignore it, kill the enemy scoring units and play to the objectives of the game.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Simple simple Jim. You and Reece suffer from the same Chicken Little syndrome. Right now you have a 900pt unit surrounded by every counter to it that you can imagine. How many points is that army that bubble wraps a Titan (keeping it from moving 36" a turn I guess), shoot down flyers, disable Void Shields, open Christmas presents, shine it's shoes and does all its homework. All under 1750pts right.

Your last statement speaks volumes. You complain everyone is forced to change their army now, but didn't that happen when 6th introduced? Excuse me but I don't see you playing Paladin Spam in rhinos anymore. Did you have to change your army? I don't see Reece playing Bjorn Wolves anymore. Did he have to change his army?

The masses, 90% as you say DO NOT change their armies no matter what. That's why the same guys win big tourneys. Those are the guys willing to change their armies with the new rules or have I been blind and all these recent tourney winners have really been playing Necron catacomb Command Barges (remember the douche canoe? Didn't last long did it.), 5-man purifier spam, and flamers of Tzeentch spam? No they adapted, they changed their armies for the meta and they won the big tourneys.

At the beginning of 6th Reece wanted to band. TO's together and do away with random assault ranges. Now he wants to band together and eliminate, no rewrite, whole sections of the rulebook. Let's ban Escalation and Stronghold assault because it scares us. Let's rewrite the main rulebook and eliminate 2+ saves. Let's play Myhammer 40k because I don't like Warhammer 40k.

If I were king I would eliminate allies. None allowed no matter what. That one rule has done more damage than any other. If that can't be done then I want everything allowed Workshop says is allowed. Otherwise all anyone is really doing is picking and choosing which armies will win and which will lose. Which armies can break and FOC and which can not.

I can see how some purists and competitive players want to leave the game as is, with all of its imbalances and imperfections as well. That's fine. As a TO, you can choose to do whatever you want with your tournament and as a player, it is your right to go to or not go to any tournament you want.

My concern is that the majority of the players out there are actually still ignorant of how unbalancing Strength D guns are. They are way more unbalancing than any othe mechanism existing in regular 40K today. Even the seer council and screamer-star antics pale in comparison. There is literally no way to avoid them except with flying units and even those flying units have to land at some point to try to win the game.

If you want to say that is ok for the game, then you are most likely in the minority. First of all, it will discourage many players from this game. No one likes to be slaughtered in game, especially one where they had no chance at all. Update, you say? What about the armies who don't have access to titans, destroyer weapons or flying units that actually don't suck. What about the people who don't have ipads/tablets to download the latest and greatest from GW or the money to buy titans of their own or in essence, buy/build practically a new army more capable of dealing with titans.

Secondly, titans will not only shift the meta, but they will change the entire landscape of the game. They are going to discourage variety. Now, to take into account titans, only certain specific builds are viable. What's going to happen to the other armies that can't adjust? What's going to happen to the armies with a lack of ranged shooting, access to titans with destroyer guns or access to decent flyers? More importantly, what happens to the people who plays these armies and don't really have other armies (or other armies that they want to play as their main armies)? GW is just shooting themselves in the foot. Sure, they're going to get some sales from these Apoc units, but they're also going to see a lot of players leave the game because of this. In the process, people in tournament play are going to be seeing the same builds over and over again.

In any case, this is probably a topic much broader than for this battle report so I'll probably stop here. Reece and I aren't really concerned as much about keeping the game as pure as possible. We are more concerned with the long-term health of the gaming community on the whole and personally, Reece has a much bigger stake in this than I. After all, it's his living.

So it seems Michael Bay wants to be a Tabletop wargame designer..

Ok so one question, is Escalation a supplement or expansion?

Imo, Escalation could be quite healthy (awaiting my soap from Dakka) but only because to me it could boost army's currently really down the drain, such as Orks for example, adding a Stompa could really boost them up to a decent level as they can now combat the broken units that everyone complains about.

To me it will breathe life into my Orks after so long, get me more motivated to finish painting my Stompa and seeing awesome stuff happen

All I can say is, I hope this is a supplement so I can shout WAAAGH!! once again

It's a supplement so go ahead and let it all out.

I think people in here are just a bit to excited and are getting ahead of themselves. Thank you to jy2, spam adam and Reecius for the report firstly! I think it was fun and somewhat informative to folks like me who have no idea how apoc units work but I can also see how in their rush to be first in line to inform they have made some HUGE accusations.

I can see how D weapons are powerful and will slaughter wholesale but condemning them for that is no different then condemning impossible to kill units. Actually I would rather be tabled in 20 minutes by a titan then to struggle through 3.5 hours of rerollable saves and 48" movement but that doesn't mean either outcome is healthy for the game.

Actually the saddest part of this report was seeing the tau fireblade dataslate tossed into the mix where you don't see its ramifications. I mean any army just about including taudar can have a riptide and 6 broadsides. Whats that btw? You say they came with their own tank hunter for literally nothing? And you don't need to pay any tax to take them or use FOC slots? And I can have inquisitors as well? Yup, 40k just became one massive buffet of pick and choose.

While 40K in recent years has been a series of small buffets where players min max 4-5 units in their book, picking and choosing, allies and now worse yet dataslates has made it idiotic. There is literally no reason not to bring the SAME crap.

I find it hilarious that so many people still talk about 40k as a competitive game. It literally has been an arms race all of 6th. It is so obvious GW needs 4th quarter sales here. The new kits are being pushed to players like crazy. I mean there isn't one dataslate for an army outside the last 4, CSM just piggyback CD. Could it be more obvious?

Now I think the game is still fun and the kits are better then they ever have been. So as a hobby the problem is not as bad, but to the gamers who look at this game as if it were a sport, it's been destroyed... for a while. All the top battle reports or player recognition comes from the same 4 armies.. WAIT, wait! I know, I know it's always been top 4 but where as before we had time to actually paint, play to gain skill and respect for our builds it is shifting week to week at this point. Sorry but I have no interest in keeping up any more, I have a job, school and a great woman I'd like to marry none of which are possible if I tried to keep up with the game "competitively." I am not knocking anyone who tries by saying that, just dropping my 2 cents.

Perspective, something we all need to keep while discussing our opinions.

/rant

I hope everyone enjoys the holidays!

@Darth


Dude, did Jim or myself insult your sister or something? You're taking this way, way too seriously.

If you like them, use them. Or gut reaction, all of us, was that D weapons have no place in competitive play.

If you disagree, that is fine. Post a cool video about how we are overreacting and show us ho to play around it.

No reason to get upset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Red Corsair

Well said, I hope you are having a happy holiday season, too!

This will all blow over too, it's all good. We just have to figure out as a community what we want to include and what we don't.

 jy2 wrote:
It's a supplement so go ahead and let it all out.

If you insist

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!




As an Ork player this is mandatory

Seriously if my tourney scene wont have Escalation but allow every other supplement, I wont be happy..

@Reece- Yea I am at the point where I think allies and supplements may need to be shelved. The new supplements have no drawbacks which is a big problem when some books haven't gotten an update in years, yet others have multiple sources. Worse yet when you consider most of those are battle brothers. It lets taudar pull from 4 books and soon to be two data slates... oh yea sorry forgot the slates are allies rules 2.0, make that 3 with marines

Of course these restrictions probably will never happen and will get me laughed at but as I said, I personally think competitive and 40k are not possible anymore. Not without stretching the definitions of the word competition anyway. I mean how competitive can a game be when you need a patch bigger then the damn boat to keep it from sinking?

Tbh my Pylon disagrees... 3 D shots with interceptor/skyfire, oh joy... and yes a fatass ctan will be fun...

 Valek wrote:
Tbh my Pylon disagrees... 3 D shots with interceptor/skyfire, oh joy... and yes a fatass ctan will be fun...

I have both of those. While good, honestly, they really can't compete with the likes of a revenant or warhound. The pylon is only 6 HP's and the c'tan only 6W. Just 1 D-blast could potentially wipe them out, let alone 4. The pylon will on average hit only twice and cannot fire at 2 separate targets, whereas the C'tan will probably get its blast off once and then get smoked. .Necron super-heavies are ok, but not great against other super-heavies. However, necrons still have a better chance than most due to its flyer build.

I don't know if this was covered but did they change the rule that super heavies can't be affected by psychic powers? Because I thought they were immune to non str based psychic attacks. So can you puppet master a Titan now?

Chancetragedy wrote:
I don't know if this was covered but did they change the rule that super heavies can't be affected by psychic powers? Because I thought they were immune to non str based psychic attacks. So can you puppet master a Titan now?

AFAIK this is still the way it works, so no prescience on a titan, and no puppet master either.

No, that rule is gone now. So is the rule that says you can't lock a titan in combat with just regular units.

Looks like I'll be investing in some telepathy rolls for my armies if this becomes wide spread ;p

No kidding. Suddenly, getting sevrin Loth and be'lakor in one army is looking like the best counter aside from melta spam.

DarthDiggler wrote:
[
Simple simple Jim. You and Reece suffer from the same Chicken Little syndrome. Right now you have a 900pt unit surrounded by every counter to it that you can imagine. How many points is that army that bubble wraps a Titan (keeping it from moving 36" a turn I guess), shoot down flyers, disable Void Shields, open Christmas presents, shine it's shoes and does all its homework. All under 1750pts right.

The number of non-titan counters to a titan are few and far between. If the titan gets first turn, all major on-board threats will be neutralized. Pod units can be rendered invalid by a bubble-wrap. You can very easily get a kroot squad, a skyfire/interceptor riptide, 3 skyfire broadsides, a defense line, couple guardian squads and some HQs for 850 points.

Your last statement speaks volumes. You complain everyone is forced to change their army now, but didn't that happen when 6th introduced? Excuse me but I don't see you playing Purifier Spam in rhinos anymore. Did you have to change your army? I don't see Reece playing Bjorn Wolves anymore. Did he have to change his army?

The masses, 90% as you say DO NOT change their armies no matter what. That's why the same guys win big tourneys. Those are the guys willing to change their armies with the new rules or have I been blind and all these recent tourney winners have really been playing Necron catacomb Command Barges (remember the douche canoe? Didn't last long did it.), 5-man purifier spam, and flamers of Tzeentch spam? No they adapted, they changed their armies for the meta and they won the big tourneys.

This is not a normal meta shift. This completely changes the way 40k is played and lists are built. List building becomes a spam of minimum cost troops, a titan and titan-killers. Something like this is violating both the skirmish atmosphere of 40k and eliminates diversity to a degree never before seen. In order to be competitive, you MUST have access to D weapons, no two ways about it.

At the beginning of 6th Reece wanted to band. TO's together and do away with random assault ranges. Now he wants to band together and eliminate, no rewrite, whole sections of the rulebook. Let's ban Escalation and Stronghold assault because it scares us. Let's rewrite the main rulebook and eliminate 2+ saves. Let's play Myhammer 40k because I don't like Warhammer 40k.

If a tournament organizer wants to modify the rules, they may. If Reece and other TOs feel (as I do) that this expansion is deeply detrimental to the game, they have a perfect right to modify the rules of their events. Ultimately, it is the decision of the TOs as to how the game is played in their event. If Warhammer 40k is inferior to Myhammer 40k, then it should not be played.

I do that more testing is required before we can jump to that conclusion though.

A titan can be locked in combat? I was thinking Nids are going to be auto lose against this titan but 30 gargoyles can tarpit one potentially? IF you can get a charge off at least. I can't think of any other way nids could fight this thing unless you shell out $$$$ on the nids super heavy.

Alright, wow. A lot to cover here, so let's get started:

First thanks Reece, Jy2 and SpamAdams for getting this batrep out on day 1 of the escalation release. That was amazingly quick, so good job.

That matchup was pretty unfair. Of all the super heavies allowed in the escalation book, the Revenant Titan seems to break the game the most (900 pts for 4 D-blasts at 2 targets/turn). However, the overlook of the Warlord table that Jy2 didn't get a chance to roll on, as well as the illegal Tau FireStrike Cadre (missing 4x broadsides, easily 340 points worth with skyfire missilesides) put a couple early factors in SpamAdams' favor.

I've been on the receiving end of an uphill battle and/or No Win Scenario many times in 40K. Especially with Dark Eldar vs my Tyranids - it just seems unwinnable. But if super heavies, this titan especially, become commonplace in the meta, can we not adapt to meet the challenge much as we always have?

Deep strikers with melta will strip points off of super heavies, every '6' does D3 additional hull points, which means a meltagun getting a pen and rolling a 4+ can do 2-4 hull points of damage per gun. Getting 900 points off the table should be a difficult investment but you could do it easily with 400-500 dedicated AT units.

Flyers with said melta and other strong weaponry (tesla destructors will hull out a titan by volume of fire) can glance them down.

Void Shield Generators and LOS blocking terrain will save you from many of the super heavy alpha strikes, because a large portion of the enemy army is tied up in that SH Vehicle/Walker. Yes a single missile CAN strip a void shield, but when you have a generator that projects 3 of them, and you only have a 1/2 chance with a s8 missile, it would take 6 hits, therefore 9 shots (with Line of sight) from space marines with missiles to do it. possibly more.

I'm getting long winded in defense of the supplement - Be'Lakor was a champ and puppet master certainly saved the day. As could locking the titan in CC with a monstrous creature from the beginning - WS3, 1 Attack, the stomp attacks are only 3" blast s6 ap4. Not very intimidating vs a bloodthirster that swoops in (to avoid the S-D blast) then moves 12" and assaults. Yes the damn titan moves 36" (but not all of them do, just THIS one) but the board is only 6x4', you can box it in.


Games workshop has said many times they don't view 40K as a competitive game. These releases we're seeing today are proof positive that is true. However, as long as there is a game there will always be gamers who want to take to the next level. I say, that's fine. Just like in 5th edition when you needed meltaguns in every unit to combat the metal bawkses that were EVERYWHERE (as well as nob bikers, paladins, etc), this will be another balancing act.

Superheavies kill deathstars with 2++ re-rolls
Deep strike suicide melta units kill superheavies
2++ re-rolls kill deep strike suicide melta units

Play tournament hammer, or casual hammer, but in either environment arrive prepared and you should still have an OK game. I'm just a gamer in WV, i don't own or operate a store and I haven't ever traveled to a serious GT. Maybe i'm wrong...but what if i'm right? Maybe take another shot, Jy2, re-write a list not to tailor vs the revenant, but with a TAC attitude that you'll see a super heavy of any sort, and rematch? Hell, worst case scenario you'll lose and you'll be 1-1 vs the escalation supplement. Also make sure your opponent has a legal list and gives you access to that bonus warlord table should you decide to use it.


Edit to add: One thing also to remember, not that it matters i guess nowadays, but you only get the Lord of War slot in your Primary detachment, so players wanting to "throw in" a revenant, or baneblade, etc into their existing army that doesn't use that super heavy can't cherry pick them. Again with the way the allies system works, it might not be that much of a deterrent for cheese but it's there.


Second post-script afterthought: It's been stated many times that Warmachine and Hordes are better balanced than 40K - namely their game system is basically "Everything is Broken!". Maybe GW is trying to head in that direction, but they're doing it with expensive $400 Forgeworld resin kits?

Just a thought..

Could JoTWW, one shot a titan/super heavy/gargantuan creature?

Lukas the trickster, has a rule where he could freeze anything upon his death, in the old apoc rules this included imperator titans as well; Now I don't know the exact wording of that rule (or if its been updated to 6th) but couldn't that one shot a titan/super heavy/gargantuan creature?

Now granted that this is only for mainly imperium allies but could this be a way of taking out the big things in escalation?

The changes to super heavies(being affected by psy powers and being able to be locked in combat) means that IMO they aren't that harsh.

And before everyone yells "You obviously haven't played against sD before..." I have. I have played against an Emperor Titan, my brother has a Shadowsword that he uses in every Apoc game, and I have a Revanent. I am well aware of their power. I think this batrep cannot be used for a good telling of whether or not the new Escalation is crazy. There were too many mistakes made in that game, and you were playing against someone who hadn't faced the new sD before.

I am not mad at you guys for the mistakes, thanks for the report and trying to educate us on the new 6th edition. But would you guys be able to do another batrep where spamadam doesn't misuse the formations? I think the superheavies can be beat, as proven by the fact that jim won the battle. And that was with the Tau being there illegally. It is n't writing over a problem with a bigger problem imo, all you need to do is throw something flying on the board, focus on the mission, and you can likely win.

I understand that certain armies are at a disadvantage here, that's always been the case(poor sisters of battle have never won a GT in 40k history right?). But I think if the rules were played right super heavies are fine. How you guys feel about super heavies is how I feel about screamer/seer star. Both of those are silly combos, yet no GT has banned them. Banning super heavies seems hypocritical. All that is needed, if you feel that sD is OP, is to make some changes to how sD functions, punishing players for taking a certain number of sD(automatic +1VP for each 2 sD weapons your opponent has for instance). And i think some are forgetting that the Revenent costs a staggering 900(or is it 950? I always forget). If a 900-950 pt model can't kill a 180 pt model or two(the soul grinders) in a turn then it is absolute crap.


And lastly, for those who think that sD is unreasonably powerful: Read the fluff. It is described as being powerful enough to 1-shot a titan. Do you really think that something that can kill a TITAN in a single turn would get stopped by your IRON HALO that your captain has?! C'mon guys, think a lil bit here!

Anywho, that's my rant. I appreciate the batrep but because of the rules-flops that were had(especially as much of the cheating seemed to benefit the side with the titan) I can't really hold this as conclusive at all.

 jy2 wrote:

 Valek wrote:
Tbh my Pylon disagrees... 3 D shots with interceptor/skyfire, oh joy... and yes a fatass ctan will be fun...

I have both of those. While good, honestly, they really can't compete with the likes of a revenant or warhound. The pylon is only 6 HP's and the c'tan only 6W. Just 1 D-blast could potentially wipe them out, let alone 4. The pylon will on average hit only twice and cannot fire at 2 separate targets, whereas the C'tan will probably get its blast off once and then get smoked. .Necron super-heavies are ok, but not great against other super-heavies. However, necrons still have a better chance than most due to its flyer build.

Disagree. Titans are stupid (and the fact they've let in the Revenant boggles the mind) but the C'tan is literally good at everything. It's fast, it has decent saves, high toughness and amazing shooting. The Revenant is good (okay, flat out broken) until it goes second. If it goes second, it's very underwhelming as AV12 vehicles are easy to kill; a C'tan with Seismic assault accompanied by the shooting of 3 annihilation barges should easily kill a Revenant. Likewise, cron air with haywire crypteks (that popular build back from the start of 6th) laughs in any super heavies face. The real advantage the C'tan has is that it doesn't matter if you go first or second as the model is really small; it can easily hide totally out of line of sight. It's also the only model I know which massively penalises the enemy for killing it. Basically, this is my point: the only thing which kills a C'tan is Str D, whereas many things can kill a Revenant at range. I mean, let's face it - if you're not a Reaver/Phantom or better, you can always die in one Str D shot because the roll of 6 is absurd. That, IMO, makes the C'tan a superior TAC choice insofar as you can have one in a match where there's a gun that basically just removes stuff.

Honestly, I'm pretty disappointed with this report. I hate the idea of str D being in 40k but this really just played like a "we've decided it's going to be awful so we played one game and said it was dumb without really trying". It's kinda like taking a Tau gunline against a green tide, or mass footcrons and then calling the entire codex bad because it doesn't work. Sure, you made the point that the build he made was dumb but... so? There's loads of dumb builds in 40k that you never see because they basically autolose against other lists as they're so imbalanced. This seemed exactly like one of those and to top it all off, the list wasn't even legal and the warlord traits weren't mentioned at all (which when one gets rid of the 6 result of Str D could have been a pretty huge deal). I've gotta say I don't get it - what was the point? That Titans are really good if they go first, one player doesn't know all the rules, the other person's army is illegal and they face a mostly assault army in a single game? Well... yeah? I dunno, just felt like it wasn't up to normal quality.

Honestly, I at first was on the side of "Wow, that super-heavy is ridiculous." But after some thought, I'm no so sure.

Just last year, you guys did a battle report about AirCrons versus Space Wolves, which where the top dogs not 6 months previously. It was just as one-sided as this was.

And now what do we have? AirCrons are arguably not even in the top 3, and fliers in general have faded in dominance compared to FMCs and the larger amount of potent AA fire.

I'd like to see new TAC lists, built with the idea of Titans as possible opponents in mind, and see how those battle reports go before passing judgement at this point.

We all may be crying the sky is falling as a knee-jerk reaction.

Ricter wrote:

We all may be crying the sky is falling as a knee-jerk reaction.

Its exactly that.

tbh as I see it, yeah people are going to be using titans and sure they will be one massive zog-off unit, but just remember that that titan costs, and how much does it cost?

Furthermore only very few can fire at different units, but id wager that most of them will not be, and that none of them will be in squadrons so there will most likely be one of them on the board, ever.

Yeah its not going to be an easy task bringing down a super-unit but then again is it as easy as taking done a Seer-star? Screamer-star? Flying Necron French Bakery? Wave Serpent spam?

Its just another tool to add to the "competitive scene" and tbh I don't think we are going to see that many super-units simply because it suffers from the main problem that Farsight bomb has: Yes it will kill and wipe shed loads off the board, but as they say it is too many eggs in one basket.

 happygolucky wrote:
Just a thought..

Could JoTWW, one shot a titan/super heavy/gargantuan creature?

Lukas the trickster, has a rule where he could freeze anything upon his death, in the old apoc rules this included imperator titans as well; Now I don't know the exact wording of that rule (or if its been updated to 6th) but couldn't that one shot a titan/super heavy/gargantuan creature?

Now granted that this is only for mainly imperium allies but could this be a way of taking out the big things in escalation?

JotWW doesn't affect vehicles so it won't work on super-heavy vehicles. It will, however, work on gargantuan creatures. If they fail, they will take 1D3 wounds instead.

Lukas' rule may work on super-heavy vehicles. I'd have to look into that. However, again, it would only cause D3 wounds to a gargantuan.

Eyjio wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Valek wrote:
Tbh my Pylon disagrees... 3 D shots with interceptor/skyfire, oh joy... and yes a fatass ctan will be fun...

I have both of those. While good, honestly, they really can't compete with the likes of a revenant or warhound. The pylon is only 6 HP's and the c'tan only 6W. Just 1 D-blast could potentially wipe them out, let alone 4. The pylon will on average hit only twice and cannot fire at 2 separate targets, whereas the C'tan will probably get its blast off once and then get smoked. .Necron super-heavies are ok, but not great against other super-heavies. However, necrons still have a better chance than most due to its flyer build.

Disagree. Titans are stupid (and the fact they've let in the Revenant boggles the mind) but the C'tan is literally good at everything. It's fast, it has decent saves, high toughness and amazing shooting. The Revenant is good (okay, flat out broken) until it goes second. If it goes second, it's very underwhelming as AV12 vehicles are easy to kill; a C'tan with Seismic assault accompanied by the shooting of 3 annihilation barges should easily kill a Revenant. Likewise, cron air with haywire crypteks (that popular build back from the start of 6th) laughs in any super heavies face. The real advantage the C'tan has is that it doesn't matter if you go first or second as the model is really small; it can easily hide totally out of line of sight. It's also the only model I know which massively penalises the enemy for killing it. Basically, this is my point: the only thing which kills a C'tan is Str D, whereas many things can kill a Revenant at range. I mean, let's face it - if you're not a Reaver/Phantom or better, you can always die in one Str D shot because the roll of 6 is absurd. That, IMO, makes the C'tan a superior TAC choice insofar as you can have one in a match where there's a gun that basically just removes stuff.

Honestly, I'm pretty disappointed with this report. I hate the idea of str D being in 40k but this really just played like a "we've decided it's going to be awful so we played one game and said it was dumb without really trying". It's kinda like taking a Tau gunline against a green tide, or mass footcrons and then calling the entire codex bad because it doesn't work. Sure, you made the point that the build he made was dumb but... so? There's loads of dumb builds in 40k that you never see because they basically autolose against other lists as they're so imbalanced. This seemed exactly like one of those and to top it all off, the list wasn't even legal and the warlord traits weren't mentioned at all (which when one gets rid of the 6 result of Str D could have been a pretty huge deal). I've gotta say I don't get it - what was the point? That Titans are really good if they go first, one player doesn't know all the rules, the other person's army is illegal and they face a mostly assault army in a single game? Well... yeah? I dunno, just felt like it wasn't up to normal quality.

The C'tan may be good against normal forces, but he really crumbles when facing Destroyer weapons. With only 6W, he dies just like a trygon or wraithknight to them. D-weapons have gotten so powerful in this edition as compared to last edition that they have basically rendered gargantuan creatures almost obsolete. Only An'ggrath, Aetaos and the Harridan - the flying GC's - have any chance of surviving and even their chances aren't very good due to the fact that they can be grounded just like any other FMC. And this is coming from someone (me) who owns all of those gargants - hierophant bio-titan, harridan, the hierodules, An'ggrath, Scabieathrax, Zarakynel and the Ascendant C'tan. If you reduce the C'tan to cowering behind buildings, then he is of no use in the game anyways and if you advance him in the face of enemy Destroyer weaponry, he will be toast.

Believe me, I was playing the game with the intention of winning and also with the belief that I could. I know exactly how to play against titans. Unfortunately things didn't go my way (I didn't get 1st turn, Be'Lakor didn't come in on T2, etc.) and my opponent just blew away my army so easily that it looked like we weren't really trying. But what you're feeling is probably what a lot of people will be feeling - unless you bring a titan yourself or tailor your army to fight titans, yeah, what's the point? You're just removing models without even rolling dice.




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 McNinja wrote:
No kidding. Suddenly, getting sevrin Loth and be'lakor in one army is looking like the best counter aside from melta spam.

Be'lakor will be an auto-include if titans become prevalent. Loth will have some problems. Namely, how to keep him alive long enough to do anything. At least Be'lakor can stay in the air while casting his power. Loth will have to disembark from whatever transport he is in, maybe get 1 Puppet Master off and then die to strength D shots.

Well, the main problem I can see is D-weapons not Titans. So basically the Revenant is broken, and a select few IG tanks are pretty good too, but not as bad. The splitfire thing may be the worst, as the Revenant killing one unit a turn would be manageable. As it is, a Drop Pod army could kill a Revenant, and that's basically it... FMC spam might be able to, but we'd need 3-4 of them at once to reliably kill it. Also, Gargantuan Flying creatures can be grounded? That might be the least logical rule in the game. Lasguns. LASGUNS can ground an FGC? That's just wrong, and makes not want to even consider a Harridan, let alone the number of games I'd be refused.

Aren't Lord of War slots limited to 25% of your total? So only 437.5 points for 1750 and 500 for 2k? That'd mean a Revenant wouldn't be allowed until you're at 3600 points, at which point you probably could get something in to counter it.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I think people in here are just a bit to excited and are getting ahead of themselves. Thank you to jy2, spam adam and Reecius for the report firstly! I think it was fun and somewhat informative to folks like me who have no idea how apoc units work but I can also see how in their rush to be first in line to inform they have made some HUGE accusations.

I can see how D weapons are powerful and will slaughter wholesale but condemning them for that is no different then condemning impossible to kill units. Actually I would rather be tabled in 20 minutes by a titan then to struggle through 3.5 hours of rerollable saves and 48" movement but that doesn't mean either outcome is healthy for the game.

Actually the saddest part of this report was seeing the tau fireblade dataslate tossed into the mix where you don't see its ramifications. I mean any army just about including taudar can have a riptide and 6 broadsides. Whats that btw? You say they came with their own tank hunter for literally nothing? And you don't need to pay any tax to take them or use FOC slots? And I can have inquisitors as well? Yup, 40k just became one massive buffet of pick and choose.

While 40K in recent years has been a series of small buffets where players min max 4-5 units in their book, picking and choosing, allies and now worse yet dataslates has made it idiotic. There is literally no reason not to bring the SAME crap.

I find it hilarious that so many people still talk about 40k as a competitive game. It literally has been an arms race all of 6th. It is so obvious GW needs 4th quarter sales here. The new kits are being pushed to players like crazy. I mean there isn't one dataslate for an army outside the last 4, CSM just piggyback CD. Could it be more obvious?

Now I think the game is still fun and the kits are better then they ever have been. So as a hobby the problem is not as bad, but to the gamers who look at this game as if it were a sport, it's been destroyed... for a while. All the top battle reports or player recognition comes from the same 4 armies.. WAIT, wait! I know, I know it's always been top 4 but where as before we had time to actually paint, play to gain skill and respect for our builds it is shifting week to week at this point. Sorry but I have no interest in keeping up any more, I have a job, school and a great woman I'd like to marry none of which are possible if I tried to keep up with the game "competitively." I am not knocking anyone who tries by saying that, just dropping my 2 cents.

Perspective, something we all need to keep while discussing our opinions.

/rant

I hope everyone enjoys the holidays!

You're welcome.

It is always like this initially. There is some fear with regards to the new changes and then eventually, people will settle in. However, titans are a game-changer. Like ImotekhTheStormlord said, it is much bigger than just a meta shift. It will shape the landscape of the game until a new edition comes out.

As for me personally, frankly, I'm not all that concerned. It'll be a tough fight, but it is one that I can definitely win. Moreover, the competitive players will start adjusting their lists and bringing in titans of their own.

However, my concern is for the average, casual gamer. I voice my concerns from their perspective, but with a dose of my own knowledge and experience added in. That is why I feel strongly about this subject.

And you're right. GW doesn't really care to make 40K competitive. However, they have gone a step beyond that. No, they have gone 10 steps beyond that. Now they have made the game extremely unbalanced as well. Balance is what makes the game competitive. Extreme unbalance is what makes the game broken (we may as well go play rock-paper-scissors instead). If TO's want any semblance of a playable game in their tournaments, don't count on GW to do anything about it. They're going to have to take steps to make the changes themselves.

No such limitation

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aren't Lord of War slots limited to 25% of your total? So only 437.5 points for 1750 and 500 for 2k? That'd mean a Revenant wouldn't be allowed until you're at 3600 points, at which point you probably could get something in to counter it.

If that's true, then good. We need something like that. Unfortunately, I don't have the supplement so can't really say.




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 Illumini wrote:
No such limitation

Oh, ok.




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Slagmar wrote:
A titan can be locked in combat? I was thinking Nids are going to be auto lose against this titan but 30 gargoyles can tarpit one potentially? IF you can get a charge off at least. I can't think of any other way nids could fight this thing unless you shell out $$$$ on the nids super heavy.

That is 1 tactic that some armies will have no choice but to employ. However, only certain titans can be locked in combat - namely super-heavy walkers and gargantuans. You can't lock super-heavy tanks in combat.

It won't be as easy as you'd think though. Good players will surround their titans with anti-assault elements. Many titans themselves have the firepower to easily wipe out a unit that is getting too close. Other titans like the Revenant can just jump 36" out of the way or gargants like the harridan or Aetaos can just fly away if they really needed to. On top of that, you have the rest of the titans' army that can kill any units that gets too close. It is still doable, and for some armies, they really don't have any other alternative, but these armies will still be huge underdogs against an army with a titan.