Tyranid Release in January: GW pre-orders up, discussion starts pg 80

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**Noctem**

Brassangel, I've been playing 40k since Epic was around and I had no idea what an Exocrine was, I think you'd be surprised at how many 40k players haven't played Epic. There are a lot of younger players now too.

**HarryLeChien**

Noctem wrote:
Brassangel, I've been playing 40k since Epic was around and I had no idea what an Exocrine was, I think you'd be surprised at how many 40k players haven't played Epic. There are a lot of younger players now too.

Damn I played Epic when it was Space Marine, with Squat Cyclops, Land Trains and Armoured Airships and I had no idea what an exocrine was.

**Tyran**

Well I started playing just at the end of 4th edition and I knew what an Exocrine was

.

**winterman**

Sinful Hero wrote:
bodazoka wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
Until Genestealers return to their former glory of not only just having a 4+, but also being able to annihilate stuff in assault, they will remain unplayable. It's a sign of how bad assault is in 40k that to match their Space Hulk days genestealers would need 10 attacks EACH to regain their old chance to kill TEQ. I mean, think of what is viable in assault at the moment and tell me which of those hasn't got either a 2++ rerollable+at least 12" move, the potential for an immediate first turn assault or is an MC. Sorry for the rant, but it's just absurd.

I have heard these three rumors

1. Drop in points
2. +1 A and +1 WS
3. They get the "suprise" rule so only snap shots at them the turn they arrive.

Would any of these make them worth while you rekon?

They would, but apparently they stay largely the same.

Someone on 4chan posted up one of those small pictures of the codex every white dwarf has and it had warrior and genestealer stats on it. Assuming it was legit (and it sure seems legit) there's no change in base cost, Attack, WS (all ths stats are as now) or options for genestealers. There's no new rule listed. Broodlord gets the Horror psychic power, no choice or upgrade in that regard. The only unknown for stealers is what the biomorphs do now and whether the broodlord is worthwhile from the Horror being good or his access to biomorph wargear.

**-Loki-**

Noctem wrote:
Brassangel, I've been playing 40k since Epic was around and I had no idea what an Exocrine was, I think you'd be surprised at how many 40k players haven't played Epic. There are a lot of younger players now too.

Well sure, but he did say 'most people' who played Epic. I played Epic and have no idea what the Eldar Knights were, I just knew they had Knights. But he is correct - a lot of Tyranid players know what the Exocrine is, and there was a lot of annoyance that the names Malefactor and Exocrine were not used for the Tervigon and Tyrannofex.

The funny thing is, the Biovore and Pyrovore actually have their aesthetic roots in the Exocrine (large back mounted gun) rather than the units roots which were in the Dactylis (the Biovore was made to bring Dactylis gameplay of long range artillery into 2nd edition Tyranids for 40k, and the Pyrovore is obviously an offshoot of the Biovore).

So even people saying 'that looks like a big Biovore' aren't wrong, and niether are people who say 'that looks like an Exocrine', because the Biovore was aesthetically a small Exocrine, even though it was mechanically a small Dactylis. But the old timers who know what an Exocrine is are going to be the ones correcting younger gamers, because they know where the look came from.

This has me thinking though, if the new Exocrine is going to be mechanically more like a Dactylis - long range indirect fire, while the Tyrannofex will remain mechanically an Exocrine - long range direct fire.

**Noctem**

Haha that would be interesting...

And that makes sense on the history of them. I hope they don't muddle the roles together. Hopefully they'll keep them distinct.

**Backlash**

Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.

**Sinful Hero**

Backlash wrote:
Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.

Exocrine=Heavy Artillery. Biovore=Light Artillery. Tyrannofex=Heavy Tank. Carnifex=Light Tank.

**bodazoka**

winterman wrote:
Someone on 4chan posted up one of those small pictures of the codex every white dwarf has and it had warrior and genestealer stats on it. Assuming it was legit (and it sure seems legit) there's no change in base cost, Attack, WS (all ths stats are as now) or options for genestealers. There's no new rule listed. Broodlord gets the Horror psychic power, no choice or upgrade in that regard. The only unknown for stealers is what the biomorphs do now and whether the broodlord is worthwhile from the Horror being good or his access to biomorph wargear.

ahh ok.

Hrmz.... it could all change based on those two things, it wouldn't take toooooo much to make them good (give them shred for example)

**timd**

Hmmm, would not be hard to use a T-fex as a "counts as" Exocrine.... Especially if the T-Fex stays/becomes even less useful than it is now.

T

**Tyran**

Yeah, imagine the problem we would have if both options were competitive

.

**-Loki-**

Sinful Hero wrote:
Backlash wrote:
Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.

Exocrine=Heavy Artillery. Biovore=Light Artillery. Tyrannofex=Heavy Tank. Carnifex=Light Tank.

The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.

It's looking like:

Spoiler:

**Sinful Hero**

-Loki- wrote:
Sinful Hero wrote:
Backlash wrote:
Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.

Exocrine=Heavy Artillery. Biovore=Light Artillery. Tyrannofex=Heavy Tank. Carnifex=Light Tank.

The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.

It's looking like:

Spoiler:

Exocrine - indirect fire
Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer

I didn't directly mean 40k terminology when I say "tank" and "artillery", but your classification works just as well. Might make these changes though-

Spoiler:

**streamdragon**

Tyran wrote:
Yeah, imagine the problem we would have if both options were competitive .

I don't think you have to worry about that.

**Tyran**

We will see.

**Caederes**

-Loki- wrote:
Sinful Hero wrote:
Backlash wrote:
Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.

Exocrine=Heavy Artillery. Biovore=Light Artillery. Tyrannofex=Heavy Tank. Carnifex=Light Tank.

The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.

It's looking like:

Spoiler:

Exocrine - indirect fire
Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer

I would switch the flyers around if I were you. The Crone has four anti-air missiles and a Strength 8 Vector Strike, though it does have a flame template with an unknown profile (probably S6 AP4 Torrent). The Harpy, on the other hand, appears to still drop Spore Mines and has either a twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon or twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon, much like its' previous incarnation (albeit cheaper). It sounds more like the Harpy is the 'bomber' mostly for anti-infantry and the Crone is the 'fighter' with a more versatile weapon set.

timd wrote:Hmmm, would not be hard to use a T-fex as a "counts as" Exocrine.... Especially if the T-Fex stays/becomes even less useful than it is now.

T

The Tyrannofex with a Rupture Cannon has dropped 60 points. Something tells me they are going to be one of the most improved units in the codex for that reason alone, even if they are identical otherwise.

**Zookie**

Eyjio wrote:
The problem with the Genestealers isn't the unit itself, but the delivery method. If there is something in the Codex (or in a supplement) that lets them reach safely CC, then they are going to be worth it.

No, the problem with genestealers is you're paying MEQ prices for something with no utility. Here's some math hammer for you:

10 Genestealers VS 10 MEQ:
Overwatch (10 bolters) : 20 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/3 wounds
9 Genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 5 wounds
5 MEQ attack: 5 S4 attacks at WS4 = 5/6 wounds

So, if genestealers take no casualties, the marines are charged, out of terrain and if all rolls are average, genestealers kill half the unit. Marines then autopass and in the next round of combat, genestealers do ~1.9 more wounds, the MEQ do 0.5 wounds. The MEQ lose on the next round of combat, leaving the stealers free in the MEQ players turn to shoot at them.

Let's look at 5 assault Terminators VS 14 genestealers to reenact Space Hulk.
Overwatch: 10 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/6 wound
9 genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 3 wounds
2 TEQ attack: 4 S8 AP2 attacks at WS4 = 5/3 wounds

Seems decent, yeah? Well... no, not at all. See, let's look at ONE round of shooting resolved against these guys. That's 10 S4 AP5 at BS4 = 10/3 - you lose over 42 points per turn. Against one of the most common, most used guns in the game, they die like rats. It's like losing 3 marines to bolters - kinda dumb.

Now let's look at what happens if there IS terrain to charge through, but they still take absolutely no wounds from shooting somehow:
10 vs 10 MEQ:
Overwatch (10 bolters) : 20 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/3 wounds
10 MEQ attack: 10 S4 attacks at WS4 = 5/3 wounds
7 genestealers attack: 21 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 35/9 (~4) wounds

Genestealers here almost tie with MEQ. On the charge. Yeah.

14 vs 5 TEQ:
Overwatch: 10 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/6 wound
9 genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 3 wounds
5 TEQ attack at the same time: 10 S8 AP2 attacks at WS4 = 25/6 wounds (~4)

Here, on the charge, they lose. Not point for point, but they actually lose combat. 5 will die compared to 3 TEQ. It's dumb.

See, the issue isn't that Genestealers have been denied good ways to get into combat, it's that even once they're there, they're very underwhelming for a dedicated assault unit. As in, they're trash. If they had a rule which just put them in combat in the first turn, that's pretty much the only time they'd be usable (and then they'd be broken as you could tie up everything with an insta-tarpit). Tau will wipe them. Eldar will wipe them. Necrons will wipe them. Daemons easily beat them in combat. Even MEQ armies destroy them. They are good against nothing unless they miraculously get into combat completely unscathed and even then they're unable to do a massive amount of damage.

I hammer this comparison a lot but that's because I think it should hold true - compare it to Space Hulk. In Space Hulk, a genestealers chance to die per resolved storm bolter shot is 11/36. In 40k, it's 20/36, almost twice as high. In Space Hulk, a Genestealer has really quite a low chance to die in assault, and a very high chance to kill outright (I mean, it's like 70% just to kill, with almost no chance to die). In 40k, it has a 217/729 chance, or ~30%. TEQ then has a 95/144 or ~66% to kill. This is really, really stupid when genestealers can ONLY assault.

Until Genestealers return to their former glory of not only just having a 4+, but also being able to annihilate stuff in assault, they will remain unplayable. It's a sign of how bad assault is in 40k that to match their Space Hulk days genestealers would need 10 attacks EACH to regain their old chance to kill TEQ. I mean, think of what is viable in assault at the moment and tell me which of those hasn't got either a 2++ rerollable+at least 12" move, the potential for an immediate first turn assault or is an MC. Sorry for the rant, but it's just absurd.

TL;DR genestealers are weak, bad assault only units in an edition where assault is incredibly underpowered and hard to get into anyway.

Could it be that they are changing what the weapons do? Like the Eldar with shuriken cats?

The leak shows scything talons for 4 points. It makes no sense to do this if they don't do something new. Maybe rending claws do something new too in addition to rending. Maybe for ever 6 rolled to hit they can roll an additional attack or they gain shred and rend.

There is no way to no for sure but if they changed scything talons (and it looks like they did) they may have changed rending claws too.

**-Loki-**

Sinful Hero wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Sinful Hero wrote:
Backlash wrote:
Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.

Exocrine=Heavy Artillery. Biovore=Light Artillery. Tyrannofex=Heavy Tank. Carnifex=Light Tank.

The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.

It's looking like:

Spoiler:

Exocrine - indirect fire
Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer

I didn't directly mean 40k terminology when I say "tank" and "artillery", but your classification works just as well. Might make these changes though-

Spoiler:

Exocrine - indirect fire(Heavy Infantry/Vehicles)
Biovore-indirect fire(Light Infantry)
Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer

I was leaving the Biovore out because I was only talking about monstrous creatures. If we start putting in everything else, the list gets looooooong.

**SHUPPET**

So basically no Doom and Zoanthropes are gonna have to roll for their powers? Is this confirmed?

**Zookie**

SHUPPET wrote:
So basically no Doom and Zoanthropes are gonna have to roll for their powers? Is this confirmed?

I have heard both. I don't think there has been anything concrete on this yet.

**Caederes**

This is my theory on why Scything Talons cost 4 points for Genestealers.

1) Scything Talons have been changed to give re-rolls to hit on all attacks.
2) Tyranids lost the "models that have more than one melee weapon don't get bonus attacks for two or more melee weapons" special rule.
3) Despite the 2nd point, Tyranid melee weapons still 'combine' with one another.

This would lead to the 4 points paying for re-rolling all failed to hit rolls in close combat, as well as giving the Genestealers 3 attacks each base due to having both Scything Talons and Rending Claws.

Just a theory.

**Harriticus**

New Tyrant Guards look awful, everything else looks good except Haruspex. For an APC unit it just looks awkward. The design is much more suited to some kind of plasma-shooting beast or something.

**DO IT TO IT**

The Haruspex is not an APC.

**Caederes**

Harriticus wrote:
New Tyrant Guards look awful, everything else looks good except Haruspex. For an APC unit it just looks awkward. The design is much more suited to some kind of plasma-shooting beast or something.

The Haruspex is NOT a transport unit.

**timd**

DO IT TO IT wrote:
The Haruspex is not an APC.

Its more of an anti-APC... it eats the troops... They go in, but they DON"T come out.

**davethepak**

I hate to request it, but can we keep the "my theory" posts either out of the thread, or in huge caps something that says "THIS IS NOT A RUMOR- I AM THEORIZING" etc.

Its just a sincere, polite request, and if anyone is offended by it, that is not my intent.

The reason I ask to not do it, is well, clutter (I think we have something like 1 rumor in the last two pages).

However, I do think that some speculation is a good thing - but due to various reasons a lot of speculation often becomes "new rumors' or "I heard..." because people just don't read well.

I have seen in many threads (this board, and others...) where off hand comments or speculative comments or just plain wishlisting gets picked up as new information.

I am very excited for the new codex - I have tons of bugs (and a lot un-built, waiting for the new book) and can't wait to field them.

I will be sad if some units do get removed, as I have made conversions and scratchbuilds for most of them.

exciting times my friends!

**Necro**

Nice pics of the new models. Might have to get myself some.

**bodazoka**

Caederes wrote:
This is my theory on why Scything Talons cost 4 points for Genestealers.

1) Scything Talons have been changed to give re-rolls to hit on all attacks.
2) Tyranids lost the "models that have more than one melee weapon don't get bonus attacks for two or more melee weapons" special rule.
3) Despite the 2nd point, Tyranid melee weapons still 'combine' with one another.

This would lead to the 4 points paying for re-rolling all failed to hit rolls in close combat, as well as giving the Genestealers 3 attacks each base due to having both Scything Talons and Rending Claws.

Just a theory.

I like it.

The only thing I would change is that Scything Talons confer shred instead of re-rolls to hit. Rending + Shred + Bonus attack for extra CC weapon = win. You are going to be re-rolling more dice when you roll to wound rather then when you roll to hit, would prefer the re-roll then.

4 attacks on the charge, 3+ to hit with a 4+ re-roll to wound and rending...

This is of course what I want to happen!!

**Eldercaveman**

bodazoka wrote:
Caederes wrote:
This is my theory on why Scything Talons cost 4 points for Genestealers.

1) Scything Talons have been changed to give re-rolls to hit on all attacks.
2) Tyranids lost the "models that have more than one melee weapon don't get bonus attacks for two or more melee weapons" special rule.
3) Despite the 2nd point, Tyranid melee weapons still 'combine' with one another.

This would lead to the 4 points paying for re-rolling all failed to hit rolls in close combat, as well as giving the Genestealers 3 attacks each base due to having both Scything Talons and Rending Claws.

Just a theory.

I like it.

The only thing I would change is that Scything Talons confer shred instead of re-rolls to hit. Rending + Shred + Bonus attack for extra CC weapon = win. You are going to be re-rolling more dice when you roll to wound rather then when you roll to hit, would prefer the re-roll then.

4 attacks on the charge, 3+ to hit with a 4+ re-roll to wound and rending...

This is of course what I want to happen!!

But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.

OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.

**Caederes**

Eldercaveman wrote:
But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.

OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.

We know two things for sure about Old One Eye from the White Dwarf;

1) He is 220 points, or 40 points cheaper than he used to be.
2) He "regenerates wounds like crazy".

The second one leads me to believe he can take an It Will Not Die roll for each wound he has suffered, not just one per turn, and gets them on a 4+ or 3+ or something like that. Probably has five or six wounds as well. Something like that would actually justify him still being 100 points more than a stock Carnifex.