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Attempting use anything as precedent when discussing Games Workshop decisions is a futile effort.

Logic has no place in their games design.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Without EW, almost all of the t4 multiwound models are practically a waste if they don't get some serious love from another direction.

I give you Bloodcrushers. Seriously, no Nid player should be getting too caught up in the idea of getting EW all over the shop, if anything, 6th Ed books have been making it less prevalent.

Like I said, unless they get love from another source, they are practically a waste (much like bloodcrushers). I'm not hung up on EW, I'm hung up on the t4 multiwound assault models like warriors and lictors that attracted me to Nids in the first place. I'm pretty sick of gribbly and MC only builds.

 Formosa wrote:
to all those expecting EW with synapse, its not happening

Do you have proof to support your statement?

Until it is fully disproven, many - even non-Tyranid players - will hope it is included simply because it will make Warriors (we don't know how Raveners and other T4 W3 models have changed) far more viable than they appear to be.

Eyjio wrote:
Let's face it, all they have to do is say something like "the hive mind remembers all memories of creatures it commands" and bam, justification for eternal warrior. They could even just say "gives them unbelievable toughness over a normal man" and that would be enough frankly.

So disposable lumps of biomass are more resilient than the energies of chaos?

I'm sure Space Marine chapters remember the deeds of their proud warriors. That would give Space marines Eternal Warrior, right?

There's no reason why a Tyranid Warrior would be more resilient than a daemon. I hate to be the one to trample the sandcastle, but the whole EW thing is wishful thinking. If daemons don't have it, tyranids sure as hell aren't.

Eyjio wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I see no possible fluff explanation why Tyranids would get Eternal Warrior while Daemons don't.

Can you think of fluff justification for half the stuff in 40k tabletop, likeRiptides or Eldar being best friends with the Ordo Malleus? Let's face it, all they have to do is say something like "the hive mind remembers all memories of creatures it commands" and bam, justification for eternal warrior. They could even just say "gives them unbelievable toughness over a normal man" and that would be enough frankly.

Though I agree it does seem unlikely.

That explanation was exactly what they used when synapse creatures did have Eternal Warrior in the 4th ed. Tyranid Codex. The Hive Mind was supposedly commanding even mortally wounded creatures and keeping them fighting in spite of their ultimately fatal wounds.

I'm still thinking it will be ID causes d3 wounds and ignores FNP. Worse than EW but way better than what we have currently.

I wonder why they didn't give Space Marine characters Eternal Warrior because their usual creed is to not give up until their job is complete despite the severity of their wounds.

Same goes for Orks, come to that

Given that you can reassemble a blown up ork long after the battle and have it be just fine

Orks are fluffwise almost immune to pain and trauma, Gamewise, not so much...

Tyranid multi wound critters won't have EW for the same reason daemons don't anymore. It gives your opponent a target that's weak to their anti-tank weapons. A major problem with the old daemon codex was that all your heavy weapons were meaningless when it was still just a wound. By giving an army with no tanks some units with a lot of t4-5 wounds your opponent still has something to justify all those expensive lascannons and powerfists.

Caederes wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
to all those expecting EW with synapse, its not happening

Do you have proof to support your statement?

Until it is fully disproven, many - even non-Tyranid players - will hope it is included simply because it will make Warriors (we don't know how Raveners and other T4 W3 models have changed) far more viable than they appear to be.

Wait and see, but let's look at how deamons lost army wide eternal warrior, nids lost army wide eternal warrior, what makes you honestly believe nids will get it back.

The only thing warriors are getting is cheaper options and a small pts reduction.

To make warriors usefull they will need ew or another way of buffing them. As long as the swarmlord gets it i'll be happy. Warriors most likely wont see much table top time if they don't have ew or improved survivability of some sort.

Mayhap it's a spy power that gives ew...

 Formosa wrote:
Wait and see, but let's look at how deamons lost army wide eternal warrior, nids lost army wide eternal warrior, what makes you honestly believe nids will get it back.

The only thing warriors are getting is cheaper options and a small pts reduction.

Demons have e an invul save that everyone ignores in these discussions. That's a massive survivable to boost comparatively.
In addition, Warriors aren't getting a cost reduction according to current (multiple source) rumors.

 Badablack wrote:
Tyranid multi wound critters won't have EW for the same reason daemons don't anymore. It gives your opponent a target that's weak to their anti-tank weapons. A major problem with the old daemon codex was that all your heavy weapons were meaningless when it was still just a wound. By giving an army with no tanks some units with a lot of t4-5 wounds your opponent still has something to justify all those expensive lascannons and powerfists.

The T6+ W4+ models aren't enough of a target for anti-tank weapons? Come on now.

Cost of upgrades going down is a cost reduction, and I'm well aware what the current rumours are, I just disagree with a few of the minor details they are pumping out

The point I was making that started this EW devolution was that it makes no logic for everything to get a point drop while warrior-class models stay the same. Add in the fact that they're getting a new kit (which GW will need to sell to people who already have warriors) and it really doesn't add up.

I'm obviously biased, as I love my tyranids and miss the 4th edition EW rules. I get that. However if you look at the very narrow picture we have now 30+ point t4 3w 4+ Sv warriors are unusable in serious play. So EW, or a form of it (D3 wounds, I'm calling it) is a wishlist but an understandable one for nid players.

 Formosa wrote:
Cost of upgrades going down is a cost reduction, and I'm well aware what the current rumours are, I just disagree with a few of the minor details they are pumping out

But most didn't really take those cheaper upgrades anyway because Warriors don't *need* them. So really, they didn't go down in points at all for a lot of people. How are you disagreeing with confirmed details and a picture of their profile?
The simple reality is, unless they have Eternal Warrior or easily accessed Toughness boosts or something like that, they won't be worth 30 points each.

 Formosa wrote:
Cost of upgrades going down is a cost reduction, and I'm well aware what the current rumours are, I just disagree with a few of the minor details they are pumping out

... When you say "cheaper options and a cost reduction" you're talking about more than just cheaper options.
Don't get twisted because you worded your statement incorrectly.
And do you have evidence they're incorrect, or just assumptions?

I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.

I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing

 Formosa wrote:
I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.

I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing

Hey, I'm not having a go at you mate Just that I - like probably everyone that likes Warriors - are concerned about their rules.
If you looked through the codex and didn't see Eternal Warrior mentioned anywhere, it is probably a safe bet it isn't included.
However, I don't we can be blamed for being hopeful lol.

 Badablack wrote:
Tyranid multi wound critters won't have EW for the same reason daemons don't anymore. It gives your opponent a target that's weak to their anti-tank weapons. A major problem with the old daemon codex was that all your heavy weapons were meaningless when it was still just a wound. By giving an army with no tanks some units with a lot of t4-5 wounds your opponent still has something to justify all those expensive lascannons and powerfists.

The problem with middle rank bugs is that they are vulnerable to EVERYTHING.

Small bugs don't care about lascannons, as it's a small points loss per wound taken
Big bugs don't really care about small arms, as T6 and 3+ save shrug off a HEAP of firepower that would be more effective elsewhere.

So you have your opponent firing big guns into big bugs, and small arms into small bugs. The problem is that both small arms AND big guns wreck middle rank creatures at an awful rate.

Take a 40 point warrior for example (death spitter/rending claws runs 40 point I think). He's pretty crappy on the offensive front. Devours gants will far exceed his shooting, and pretty much anything in the book will make a mockery of his melee ability. The REAL problem though is points removed per wound suffered compared to other units in the book.

Average points of damage done per Bolter shot (BS4);
vs naked gant (5pts); 2.22 (1.48 in 5+ cover)
vs naked future gant (4 points); 1.8 (1.2 in 5+ cover)
vs warrior (40 pts); 2.22 (cover doesn't help at all)
vs shrike (50 points, twin-swords+toxin sacs); 5.555 (3.7 with a 5+ cover save)
vs Trygon/tervigon (210 points); 1.29 (cover doesn't help at all)

Average points of damage done per lascannon/missile launcher/bright lance...etc (BS4):
vs naked Gant (5 pts); 2.77
vs Warrior (40 pts); 22.22 (7.4 if they had eternal warrior)
vs shrike (50 points, twin-swords+toxin sacs); 27.77
vs Trygon/tervigon (210 points); 19.44

This is with 40 point warriors and 50 point shrikes, the numbers get increasingly worse as they go up in points, and god help the poor shrikes/raveners against bolter fire :(. As you can see, they are an optimal target for both small arms and large weapons fire power, and are only "good" against S5-7 firepower, as they strip wounds from MCs really well, and only do 1 wound to the warriors.

If the current warriors/shrike/ravener stats stand, they need about a 30% cost decrease to be effective (remember, gants are going to 4 points in the new book as well). That would put them at a maximum of 30 points with a solid offensive loadout.....and we know that is not happening. They absolutely CANNOT be an optimal target for both categories of weapons and be viable, they have to stand up to one or the other well. A 3+ save would make them champs against small arms, and eternal warrior fixes them against heavy weapons, T5 and W3 helps against both.....pick one option.

I wish they would go back to elite/HQ, so they could be made worthwhile even if it would squeeze our elites slot a bit more.

Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?

Formosa wrote:I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.

I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing

Please do! Quickly and with haste!

Zookie wrote:Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?

White dwarf preview by the look of it.

Zookie wrote:
Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?

Considering it is slotted to ship in January, It would have to be printed already.

barnowl wrote:

Zookie wrote:
Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?

Considering it is slotted to ship in January, It would have to be printed already.

But are they shipping to disruption sites yet? I am trying to figure at what point the photos were taken.

 gigasnail wrote:
no one cares about a fluff explanation for it, we'd just like the models to be a useful unit.

Welcome in the Chaos Space Marines Hell, enjoy your stay.

 Wilytank wrote:
I wonder why they didn't give Space Marine characters Eternal Warrior because their usual creed is to not give up until their job is complete despite the severity of their wounds.

Eternal Shield?, Gorgon's Chain?..., Marneus, Lysander...

Formosa wrote:I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.

I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing

Darn! I was hoping they lost blast and became something like Heavy 3 or 4. Even salvo something. A Str9 AP4 small blast just isn't that awesome. Especially when it gives negatives to armor damage.

Zookie wrote:

barnowl wrote:

Zookie wrote:
Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?

Considering it is slotted to ship in January, It would have to be printed already.

But are they shipping to disruption sites yet? I am trying to figure at what point the photos were taken.

Zookie wrote:Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?

They supposedly came from a White Dwarf that was in someone's hands at some point. They just released the information a couple days ago. That's about as specific as you're gonna get. They could have taken the pictures just a few moments before posting them, or several weeks later. It's basically unknown when they got hold of the info.

@Formosa - It is interesting that the giant crab thing (the Haruspex) stuck in your mind. Was that because of the model or the rules? If it was the rules, are you allowed to elaborate? The Exocrine and Crone already sound like pretty decent units but I am very interested to see how the Haruspex fares. Cheers by the way!

 Wilytank wrote:

There's no reason why a Tyranid Warrior would be more resilient than a daemon.

Game balance would be a damn fine reason.

Unfortunately, while simply restoring Warriors to T5 would see them take to the field in droves GW seem set on ignoring the problem or massively overcompensating.

What I really hope for is a return of the Deathspitter to it's proper stats and functionality. There was no reason to turn it into a carbon copy of the Devourer.

Enough with the "Eternal Warrior" discussion. It's wish-listing, at best.