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Except Warriors can never get Thunderhammers, Storm Shields, combi-weapons, assault cannons, teleporters, Land Raiders, or be Deathwing.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Except Warriors can never get Thunderhammers, Storm Shields, combi-weapons, assault cannons, teleporters, Land Raiders, or be Deathwing.

That's because those are Imperial Weapons. That is an astute observation, however. I've always wondered why Tyranids never got Land Raiders. I guess that's because they're not Imperial after all.

Tyranids have their own variants with Bone Swords, Catalyst, two guns, Venom Cannons, Raveners, Mycetic Spores, and they can come as Troops (respectively). Blame the wargear instead of making observations that Tyranids don't get Land Raiders. Regardless, this doesn't address the point that neither Warriors nor Terminators have eternal warrior.

All it would take to make venomthropes worthwhile would be a shrouded bubble.

Or... a bubble that makes enemy fire snapshots. =) Oh yes.

Out if curiosity, those leaked profiles...

Should they not have SOME colour?

FINALLY!! after reading all 37 pages (my work may have suffered during the course of following this thread)

I have to say I for one am extremely stoked for the new codex. I don't think there will be to many disappointments once it's released. Granted things look bleak for Genestealers Hormagaunts and Warriors but I honestly think the biomorphs, army wide rules and possible synapse buffs will help out with any short comings they might suffer. Even if they don't every codex I've looked at has had short comings in units that will likely never see the table because of them. In this case it's just unfortunately units that are popular with the people playing them.

No one has mentioned anything of warlord traits either that I can remember (tons of info not all of it stuck I don't think) and since I've been waiting for the new codex I haven't read the current one to see if there are any in there.

As it stands right now I'm just taking everything rules wise with a grain of salt. Even the pics of the unit stats I don't trust completely. they're too blurry to say if they're legit or not.

just my optimistic 2 cents

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?

Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?

 Kroothawk wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?

Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?

People already own all those models, what would be the point of making them useful, GW are a business not a charity, they want to sell new models and they know people will buy them if they are better than the old stuff.

Hey, wait a minute as I have an honest question here.

People still think Hormagaunts will suck even though they are 5 points per model and add 3" to their Run moves?

That seems to be the general consensus; I play Tau usually so I'm not sure exactly what the rules for assault are but as I understand it you can't run and assault (which seems dopey to me) so the extra 3" won't prevent the unit getting shot at least 2 more times (both likely in rapid fire range)

Nevermind, I mixed up editions again...

They should have a rule to allow them to charge after running. They are meant to be leaping little things after all, and in 6th ed they aren't as effective due to the change in fleet.

They die like flies, so if their upgrades are reasonnably cheap I'd use them. 10 points apiece though ...

Adding additional inches to run isn't as helpful as people seem to think. Extra run just gets you into the range of their guns faster. With the volume of shooting that you see these days, a 30-man hormagaunt squad can melt in a turn pretty easily.

Now, extra inches to assault would be nice. But GW hates you for assaulting. So.

Regarding the "GW makes the newest models better so they sell" theory... the last decent flyer we got was the helldrake. Every other flyer we've got has been ass. Mutlilators were ass, the best units in CSM are oblits, PM's and Helldrakes. DA flyers were ass, their old units are all the best units. Tau flyers are ass, though the riptide is great. Eldar flyers are ass, best unit the dex is the wave serpent, though the WK is good. Best unit in the SM dex are bikes, though centurions are okay.

So ratio wise, the majority of new models/units introduced haven't really been all that good. Can we consider this theory officially debunked?

Brutal Viking wrote:
That seems to be the general consensus; I play Tau usually so I'm not sure exactly what the rules for assault are but as I understand it you can't run and assault (which seems dopey to me) so the extra 3" won't prevent the unit getting shot at least 2 more times (both likely in rapid fire range)

One of the big issues I have had with assault units - even those with Fleet - is that I keep messing up my Run moves and it costs me another turn of being shot at. However, the new Hormagaunts run a minimum of 4", which basically means no matter how bad my Run moves are I'm probably not going to have to deal with that extra turn of being shot at.

Say you are playing the long edge deployment, 48" from the back of your board edge to the opponents' on the 6x4. If you deploy on 12", then even only Run 4" a turn, Hormagaunts are going to be covering a minimum of 10" a turn - though of course cover can slow them down, in which case they also have Move Through Cover. The average they will be moving each turn is around 14" due to Fleet. Combine that with re-rolls on random charge length and even against a gunline list you should expect a turn three charge at worst.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Adding additional inches to run isn't as helpful as people seem to think. Extra run just gets you into the range of their guns faster. With the volume of shooting that you see these days, a 30-man hormagaunt squad can melt in a turn pretty easily.

Now, extra inches to assault would be nice. But GW hates you for assaulting. So.

Regarding the "GW makes the newest models better so they sell" theory... the last decent flyer we got was the helldrake. Every other flyer we've got has been ass. Mutlilators were ass, the best units in CSM are oblits, PM's and Helldrakes. DA flyers were ass, their old units are all the best units. Tau flyers are ass, though the riptide is great. Eldar flyers are ass, best unit the dex is the wave serpent, though the WK is good. Best unit in the SM dex are bikes, though centurions are okay.

So ratio wise, the majority of new models/units introduced haven't really been all that good. Can we consider this theory officially debunked?

That's just the thing I guess, if the core mechanics themselves don't work, what can be done? Still, I think it is fair to say Hormagaunts will pop up more simply because they did improve - but how much they show up is yet to be seen. I know it is unlikely after the leaked Termagant profile, but if Hormagaunts get either Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacs for 1 point per model that will be superb.

And yes, that theory has long been debunked, no question. People just cling to it so they have something else to whinge about when a codex gets redone. On that note, from what I can see, the new monsters may not even necessarily be the best units in the codex. The Crone and the Exocrine look to have good rules, but significant points drops to units such as the Tyrannofex and Carnifex could make them stand-outs if they get any other changes.

Caederes wrote:
Hey, wait a minute as I have an honest question here.

People still think Hormagaunts will suck even though they are 5 points per model and add 3" to their Run moves?

Well, this hasn't been confirmed yet. 5 pts per model would definitely help them out. It would be even better if their upgrades weren't 2 ppm like the current dex. A toxin gaunt currently costs 8 points. If a toxin gaunt only costs 6 pts in the new book that would be excellent.

Changing their run mechanic is more complex. Currently they roll 3d6 to run and keep the highest roll. With Fleet, this is basically a guaranteed 6 inch run. With +3 to run presumably replacing the 3d6 keep the highest, and Fleet, I don't know whether this is actually an upgrade or a nerf. Someone who has the time to Mathahmmer it could tell us. It seems to my naive eye that they would gain about an inch or two of movement each player turn, over the old book. Not too hot, unfortunately. But maybe with points decreases, changes to the biomorphs, and a slight increase in speed, they can be more viable.

Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.

rollawaythestone wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Hey, wait a minute as I have an honest question here.

People still think Hormagaunts will suck even though they are 5 points per model and add 3" to their Run moves?

Well, this hasn't been confirmed yet. 5 pts per model would definitely help them out. It would be even better if their upgrades weren't 2 ppm like the current dex. A toxin gaunt currently costs 8 points. If a toxin gaunt only costs 6 pts in the new book that would be excellent.

Changing their run mechanic is more complex. Currently they roll 3d6 to run and keep the highest roll. With Fleet, this is basically a guaranteed 6 inch run. With +3 to run presumably replacing the 3d6 keep the highest, and Fleet, I don't know whether this is actually an upgrade or a nerf. Someone who has the time to Mathahmmer it could tell us. It seems to my naive eye that they would gain about an inch or two of movement each player turn, over the old book. Not too hot, unfortunately. But maybe with points decreases, changes to the biomorphs, and a slight increase in speed, they can be more viable.

They were confirmed by Endobai to be 1 point cheaper per model, so 5 points per model. The funny thing is the 3D6 could also be re-rolled which gave you an incredibly high chance of a 6" run. However, there was always potential for a bad roll - I've seen people roll triple 1s twice in a row! The new ones kept Fleet IIRC, the new Run an extra 3" is from the "new" Bounding Leap. Their average Run move went up 2" and their maximum Run move went up by 3". It seems minor but I've found when I actually go for those Fleet charges those extra few inches make a big difference, especially with how quickly Hormagaunts die off. I think though that what they really needed was a points drop and while I would have preferred they went down to 4 points the same as Termagants, it seems like they will at least be ok now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.

I want to say that 3d6 keep the highest, with the ability to re-roll any and all dice is more reliable? Am I mistaken here?

rollawaythestone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.

I want to say that 3d6 keep the highest, with the ability to re-roll any and all dice is more reliable? Am I mistaken here?

It's difficult to say. The odds of rolling no higher than a 4 or a 3 are incredibly low on effectively 3D6x2. However, the minimum Run move of the new ones is 4", and the new ones still have Fleet. I'm not good at math-hammering so I will let someone else do it lol. However, for 'average' rolls, the new Hormagaunts are quicker for sure.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.

I want to say that 3d6 keep the highest, with the ability to re-roll any and all dice is more reliable? Am I mistaken here?

Still not as reliable as a guaranteed +3. There's always the chance of rolling all 1's on your reroll.

It like the old thought experiment which iirc goes like this

You have a choice between a 100% chance for 1000 dollars, or a 75% chance for 2000 dollars. Which one would you prefer?

Yeah, it seems on average they gain about two inches of movement. About offsets the loss of a few Gaunts on the charge to overwatch.

It reminds of their 5th Edition days. Move 6". Run 3D6 pick the highest (incredibly likely to have a 5 or a 6 in there). Charge 6". The average 'assault range' back then 17". Nowadays, it is probably about 15", though with a far greater variable length.
To me they do seem like quite a bit better unit, they got two confirmed minimal changes to make them a bit more useable with Overwatch and random charge lengths around. Hopefully they actually become a viable competitor to Termagants again. On that note, has anyone noticed how Termagants outclass Cultists for the same points cost?

My brother plays CSM and has been whining about the points decreases for Termagants.

I argue that you can't really compare points/units directly without consider their role and place in the codex. Otherwise Orks should be overpowered because they have the cheapest strongest Troop. Think about what Orks get for their points and Termagants don't compare. Especially Cultists.

rollawaythestone wrote:
My brother plays CSM and has been whining about the points decreases for Termagants.

I argue that you can't really compare points/units directly without consider their role and place in the codex. Otherwise Orks should be overpowered because they have the cheapest strongest Troop. Think about what Orks get for their points and Termagants don't compare. Especially Cultists.

Oh I know, trust me, having played all three armies. Ork Boyz still are the most cost effective by far. In saying that though, I'm very happy with Termagants now!

Shingen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?

Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?

People already own all those models, what would be the point of making them useful, GW are a business not a charity, they want to sell new models and they know people will buy them if they are better than the old stuff.

That argument has been defeated a number of times before (in this thread alone). A lot of new models have not been assigned to super playable units.

Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.

You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).

It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.

 brassangel wrote:

Shingen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?

Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?

People already own all those models, what would be the point of making them useful, GW are a business not a charity, they want to sell new models and they know people will buy them if they are better than the old stuff.

That argument has been defeated a number of times before (in this thread alone). A lot of new models have not been assigned to super playable units.

Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.

You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).

It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.

Not to be a downer, but you do realize it was this kind of logic that Cruddace used to do the 5th Edition Tyranid book? He over-priced individual units because he was afraid the "synergy" would be too strong. If Warriors themselves are over-priced and not worthwhile, no amount of "working within the army" will change that. They will still be an over-priced and generally not worthwhile unit. And before you repeat yourself, does an army like Necrons pay for "synergy". No. Each unit pays for their abilities. The synergy comes from how you use them together. There is no "they have to pay for that synergy" crap. And yes, I know Tyranids are a lot different. But if each individual unit was priced as they should be, the "synergy" would come naturally, not feel forced as it currently does with Warriors.

It's like taking a crutch unit (Tigurius) to make an otherwise average unit (Centurions) work. It doesn't change the fact that the unit itself isn't as good as it should be.
And before you start, I take target saturation lists to make units such as Warriors work. And while they do work within my army, again, it doesn't change the fact that I am paying points for *other units I might not otherwise use* to make them work.

 brassangel wrote:


Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.

You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).

It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.

The problem with the nid codex is that there are not many priority targets for the S8 stuff to shoot at. It is not like nids are putting lots of vehicles on the table, like some other armies can. Thus, the high strength shots go right into MC and things like Warriors.

 spaceelf wrote:

 brassangel wrote:


Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.

You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).

It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.

The problem with the nid codex is that there are not many priority targets for the S8 stuff to shoot at. It is not like nids are putting lots of vehicles on the table, like some other armies can. Thus, the high strength shots go right into MC and things like Warriors.

There's potentially a lot of targets for S8. Hive Tyrants, Trygons, Mawlocs, Tervigons, Tyrannofexes, Carnifexes, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and more I'm forgetting. This release is adding Haruspexes and Exocrines to the list. The problem is they're not costed appropriately to get sufficient saturation to prive a real targetting choice. Everything that you'd target with S8+ is so expensive there's never many of them on the table.

They could easily get that proper saturation working if they redid the points costs to make taking more MC's a viable strategy, without adding anything special to Warriors themselves.

 -Loki- wrote:

Spoiler:

 spaceelf wrote:

 brassangel wrote:


Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.

You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).

It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.

The problem with the nid codex is that there are not many priority targets for the S8 stuff to shoot at. It is not like nids are putting lots of vehicles on the table, like some other armies can. Thus, the high strength shots go right into MC and things like Warriors.

There's potentially a lot of targets for S8. Hive Tyrants, Trygons, Mawlocs, Tervigons, Tyrannofexes, Carnifexes, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and more I'm forgetting. This release is adding Haruspexes and Exocrines to the list. The problem is they're not costed appropriately to get sufficient saturation to prive a real targetting choice. Everything that you'd target with S8+ is so expensive there's never many of them on the table.

They could easily get that proper saturation working if they redid the points costs to make taking more MC's a viable strategy, without adding anything special to Warriors themselves.

Which is what is rumored to be happening, with several MCs being dropped 40-60 points. Not sure if it's enough, but it might be.

I missed that rumour. I'd be happy as a pig in gak if Carnifexes stayed about their current power level but dropped to 100pts.

According to BoLS and originating from a fellow apparently in possession of an early WD, the information was gleaned that Carnies are 120 pts base. Not to mention other significant point drops, which seems to be putting all current MCs under the two hundred mark or so.