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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I doubt we'll get BS4. GTW has a bee in their bonnet in regards to Tyranids and shooting, the idea being that "Tyranids don't shoot", so even the ones that do shoot can't really shoot. The same mentality unfortunately applies to Orks.

I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranges units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.

At the very least they could give us a biomorph that grants +1 BS like in the 4e dex...

Or rerolls to hit.

For the first time in a long while I'm actually excited about a GW release. Someone hold me.

So, do we know wether the parasite of mortrex is still there? I just finished painting mine.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I doubt we'll get BS4. GW has a bee in their bonnet in regards to Tyranids and shooting, the idea being that "Tyranids don't shoot", so even the ones that do shoot can't really shoot. The same mentality unfortunately applies to Orks.

I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranged units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.

In the old 2nd edition Epic, Tyranid shooting was actually pretty deadly, though either short ranged or inaccurate. The bio-cannons on Exocrines and I think the Bio-Titans had a +1 damage bonus on damage tables due to a special corrosive fungal payload. So there is precedent for Tyranid shooting being deadly. Rather the differentiation can be Tyranid shooting being inaccurate or short range but hurts really badly when it does hit. Or if one goes by spike rifles and spinefists, Tyranids sometimes trade power for range or ease of hitting/number of shots respectively. So Tyranids may be able to match up on one aspect of shooting at the cost of sacrificing the other.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
So, do we know wether the parasite of mortrex is still there? I just finished painting mine.

Nothing more than the assertion that biomorph upgrades will cater to the special characters. Whether or not this means you can take, say, a Tyranid Prime with Wings, Implant Attack, Rending Claws, and the one-per-army "Implant Parasite" biomorph, that grants it all the special rules of the Parasite of Mortrex, remains to be seen. I can definitely see the Doom making a comeback in some form, although "Super-Zoanthrope with Absorb Life, Cataclysm and Spirit Leech" will probably be overall less effective than the Doom used to be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranged units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.

BS4 is the benchmark for elite troops.

So what you want is an army that does everything well? Horde, close combat, and shooting?

Seems legit.

I mean, I love Tyranids. Played all the way back to 2nd Edition. But that's a bit ridiculous to be upset about. 3rd Edition turned Tyranids into a horde army with a close combat bend. The only time Tyranids were ever shooty was 2nd Edition, and the shooty units were much more expensive.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:At the very least they could give us a biomorph that grants +1 BS like in the 4e dex...

That only gave warriors BS3 anyway.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranged units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.

BS4 is the benchmark for elite troops.

So what you want is an army that does everything well? Horde, close combat, and shooting?

Seems legit.

I mean, I love Tyranids. Played all the way back to 2nd Edition. But that's a bit ridiculous to be upset about. 3rd Edition turned Tyranids into a horde army with a close combat bend. The only time Tyranids were ever shooty was 2nd Edition, and the shooty units were much more expensive.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:At the very least they could give us a biomorph that grants +1 BS like in the 4e dex...

That only gave warriors BS3 anyway.

No, what he's asking for are specialized units, which is what Tyranids are supposed to have. I've played nids as long as you have it seems, and we had some hallmark shooting units that were absolutely terrifying: Original Zoanthropes, the OLD Venom cannon whose current predecessor is but a pale imitation, the previous version of Deathspitters which were basically unchanged until Cruddace, Bio plasma which is just getting back to where it was.

The thing was, you got those at the cost of a much less potent melee force. And we still had our hallmark weaknesses; gaunt armor continued to be mocked by tissues, warriors you paid out the nose for (but didn't explode like squeezed facial blemishes), lose your synapse and watch your army tell you that you could go order a pizza because it'd play itself for the rest of the game...

H.B.M.C is not asking for unreasonable options, because it's not unreasonable to ask that our shooting units... you know... shoot well? Be it more accurate, or exceedingly deadly. I'd take either option, rather than having the creature that are twice as tall as a space marine somehow have the same toughness and die far easier due to the way armor works.

Don't get me wrong, I think Tyranids should go back to being shooty.

But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.

That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.

If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.

However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.

The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
BS4 is the benchmark for elite troops.

So what you want is an army that does everything well? Horde, close combat, and shooting?

Seems legit.

That's not what I said at all.

And why shouldn't the Tyranid units specifically designed to shoot (Hive Guard, Tyrannofex and leader beasts like Tyrants) be "elite troops" when it comes to shooting? Tyranids specialise. Things that only shoot should be really good at only shooting. It's daft to say "'Nids are a HTH army!" and make their dedicated shooting units bad/mediocre shooters.

Stat ratings should be based on how the unit is meant to function on the tabletop within the army...not based on background.

As to Nids in 2nd Editon...I recall them being heavily Horde CC but with much Tougher MCs that we get today. Shooting was important for vehicle suppression but it was waves of Hormies and 'stealers that killed stuff.

I had a slim hope that this codex might continue the move armies seem to have taken back towards the flavour of 2nd but what I have heard in this thread makes me less than hopeful.

This kind of 'nids are a horde so shouldn't be good at anything' philosophy is partly why we have the awful codex we have now. E.g. Hormies being dropped to WS4.

 Souleater wrote:
Stat ratings should be based on how the unit is meant to function on the tabletop within the army...not based on background.

That's the most rediculous thing I've heard here in a while.

Tau getting BS3 doesn't count because they have means to change this through their in/famous Markerlights.

That said, there are several ways for a shooting force to remain effective in spite of low Ballistic Skill. Either a small number of shots can hit very hard (Rupture Cannon at Strength 10) or a huge number of shots can be fired (Fleshborer Hive, Assault 20; lasguns, shootas, etc). While Zoanthropes have very strong shooting in the form of Warp Lance, it is still a psychic power and therefore they need BS4 in order to (slightly) balance it against all the loopholes and potential failures that that entails (Perils and Deny the Witch on top of BS3 shooting would suck, not to mention certain powers that can make psychic casting troublesome). Hive Guard have a low number of medium-strength shots, and do not come in large groups (like Necrons, Eldar, and Space Marines).

Warriors are much more expensive than Space Marines, and get neither weight of fire nor particularly strong shooting, but at still BS3 unless joined by a Prime (which is BS4, and passes this on to Warriors in its unit).

Also, it has nothing to do with age. It's a balancing thing. Necrons, Eldar, Veteran Guardsmen and Space Marines have better BS because they come in far smaller units than things like Ork Boyz, and fire far fewer (but more powerful) shots. It if were down to experience, any given Tyranid organism has a limitless supply readily available to them through the Hive Mind, so every Termagant should theoretically be BS10.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that the background is specifically designed to fit the game. Otherwise we could have things like "Ork Boyz are among the greatest marksmen in the galaxy. Commonly fielded in units of one, these greenskins are known to perform such feats as firing a single slug with such precise accuracy that it slips through a tiny momentary breach in a Void Shield, through the weakest point in a Titan's eye, and into the Princeps, felling the Titan immediately." and then the game have them as they are. Instead, we have fluff that goes roughly "Space Marines are very good at things. That is why they are better at shooting than Guardsmen are. Also, Space Marines get access to better gear, which is why they have 3+ saves and bolters instead of leather and lasguns". The fluff could just as easily begin to state "Carnifexes come in broods of 400, and have replaced all smaller Tyranid organisms. Their ragged carapaces are stronger than even Tactical Dreadnought Armour, and the creatures are known for taking only small injuries from even the formidable weaponry of Titans", and then have Carnifexes cost 1 point each, have all stats at 10, 2+ rerollable armour and a 3++ invuln, and all carry Heat Lances - except this would break the game completely. Therefore, Tyranids are described as having swarms of weaker organisms (GEQ, usually 5pts each) alongside a relatively small number of larger organisms (high-cost MCs). The restrictions that stop all Space Marines from having Artificer Armour and lascannons are placed in the fluff and lead to these crunch decisions.

anyone that says 'balance' with a straight face in regards to anything in 40k needs an intervention from friends to bring them back to reality.

I just said that's what it's for, not that they're doing a good job of it. But the game isn't really as broken as all that.

Lascannons are stronger than lasguns. They are more costly and fire fewer shots. That is the sort of balance I am talking about, not about the integrity of the game's balance overall.

EDIT: While I don't suggest that 40k is "balanced", what I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
... I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.

Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't really apply here either, if that's what you were aiming for.

You're right when you say things like Orks not getting a higher BS to balance their weight of fire, but I'm more talking specialist units. Tank Bustaz, Lootas, even just Warbosses in general, along with Warriors, Hive Guard, Tyranits, Tyrannofexes etc. These are the things that should get a BS bump to show that shooting is what they do. I'm not saying make Lootas BS4, but I am saying make them at least as good a shoots as Guardsmen.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
...and then have Carnifexes cost 1 point each, have all stats at 10, 2+ rerollable armour and a 3++ invuln, and all carry Heat Lances - except this would break the game completely.

Which is what GW's into now, so we can expect to see invincifexes in the new book?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
... I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.

Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't really apply here either, if that's what you were aiming for.

You're right when you say things like Orks not getting a higher BS to balance their weight of fire, but I'm more talking specialist units. Tank Bustaz, Lootas, even just Warbosses in general, along with Warriors, Hive Guard, Tyranits, Tyrannofexes etc. These are the things that should get a BS bump to show that shooting is what they do. I'm not saying make Lootas BS4, but I am saying make them at least as good a shoots as Guardsmen.

I'm agreeing with you! And it applies just fine, if you knew I was refuting the idea that there is no balance.

As for BS, I was again agreeing with you. Lootas (as far as I know) are fairly decent; they make up for their lack of hits with S7 and firing off a lot of shots. They're Orks, so this is fine. As for everything else, I don't think it matters as long as the result is effective (I have no experience with Tank Bustas or Warbosses, but if they can shoot effectively it doesn't matter). Hive Guard are BS4, but as I said, their shots are mid-strength and low in number. Bizarrely, Venomthropes are also BS4. Zoanthropes need to have their BS4; their high-strength shooting requires them to pass a psychic test, for the opponent to fail Deny the Witch, and for the shot to actually hit in the first place. Hive Tyrants should really be BS4 at the least. Once again it is Warriors who are caught; they can't make up for their BS3 by weight of fire, and they can't make up for it with quality shooting, either. On a platform with the aforementioned (many, many times in this thread) weaknesses, shooting is just another thing that Warriors suck at, which is really weird.

I think it's less "better than Guardsmen" and more "this elite shooting unit in my army has the same BS as the basic horde guys". I think Orks are a bit of an exception, seeing as how they value big, loud, inaccurate weaponry over skill (which is the idea of Lootas, anyway). For everyone else (Tyranids included), it is a bit strange.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
... I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.

Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't really apply here either, if that's what you were aiming for.

You're right when you say things like Orks not getting a higher BS to balance their weight of fire, but I'm more talking specialist units. Tank Bustaz, Lootas, even just Warbosses in general, along with Warriors, Hive Guard, Tyranits, Tyrannofexes etc. These are the things that should get a BS bump to show that shooting is what they do. I'm not saying make Lootas BS4, but I am saying make them at least as good a shoots as Guardsmen.

I'd have to go into the camp of stronger, not more accurate. Things like Living Ammo, showing that while individual Tyranids aren't the best shots, the shots that land are horrific to suffer. Beetles that burrow into your organts, worms that creep into your brain, crystals that burst into corrosive acid, etc. Tyranid ranged weapons are weapons you utterly do not want to be hit with. A bolter might blow your arm off and you get taken to an aid station and get an awesome bionic arm as a replacement. A fleshborer beetle will eat its way through your insides before you ever see an aid station. A devourer will fill your brain with worms.

Go back to additional effects when Tyranid weapons hit their target, rather than just making them better shots. Tyranids should get quantity of hits from quantity of shooters, not better ballistic skill. There's no reason for Tyranid shooting to suck - they've always had decent shooting, I just don't feel a BS bump is the way.

Interesting point Loki. Whilst I'm loathe to put a special rule on every unit and every weapon (and GW seems happy to do that), it would be a way of differentiating them from regular armies.

Still, things that are so obviously massive gun beasts or leaders (Exocrines, Tyrannofexes and Hive Tyrants) should be BS4. In the case of some of them shooting is all they do - it's what they were created for - and they should be good at it.

Frozen Ocean - Thanks for correcting me on the Hive Guard. I've honestly never used any because I never wanted to fork over $41 per model for a unit. I've been waiting for plastic ones since the metal ones came out! I did know Venomthropes were BS4, because that came up when the Codex first came up as a major "WTF?" moment. Methinks Cruddace didn't do the best job with that book.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Methinks Cruddace didn't do the best job with that book.

I'm shocked. Really.

I do like the "Living Weapons" idea, but I would personally take it a step further. I would love to see some kind of "hazardous environment" rules, things like the mere presence of a Tyranid force on the battlefield leads to pinning effects on any unit that does not have fully sealed helmets or rebreather equipment.
Or that just don't believe in things like spores and wotnot, in the case of Orks.

You mean a few more random cinematic charts?

Sure, why not?

It could have nothing at all to do with wanting a bit more depth to upgrades and the game at large. Nope, nothing at all.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Sure, why not?

It could have nothing at all to do with wanting a bit more depth to upgrades and the game at large. Nope, nothing at all.

Careful, down that way, Virus Outbreak lies..... :pirate orkmoticon:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I would love to see some kind of "hazardous environment" rules, things like the mere presence of a Tyranid force on the battlefield leads to pinning effects on any unit that does not have fully sealed helmets or rebreather equipment.
Or that just don't believe in things like spores and wotnot, in the case of Orks.

So it affects maybe a quarter of the armies in the game with any signifigance? I see that as just unsatisfactory from all sides. The Tyranid player is unsatisfied because his special rule is ignored by most of the armies out there (see Fear). The player who is affected is unsatisfied because he feels like he is unfairly singled out when most armies can safely ignore the rule. The player who is unaffected finds it just a boring rule because it has zero impact on his army (and has to listen to certain Nid player whine about it).

What seems fluffy and cinematic often does not translate into solid gameplay.

 Absolutionis wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.

That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.

If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.

However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.

The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.

They don't have BS4 for being really old: they are also superior to the other races in terms of martial skill and training. Space Marines are genetically superior to all races, Eldar have the patience and grace to learn just about anything, and Necrons are BS4 the moment they were made - they aren't a decaying flora and thus don't change. One only has to look at sports to know that being old doesn't make one better.

Orks aren't bad at shooting despite being BS2. They can throw so many bullets in the air and out-shoot a lot of armies.
Tau are BS3 but amazing at shooting because they have cool guns and buffs.
IG are mostly BS3 but are amazing at shooting due to volume of fire with devastating weapons.

Tyranids designed for shooting aren't really good at shooting, and wouldn't be as such in the classical sense. They are designed to launch another organism, or some biochemical at the enemy through a series of muscle spasms. I think Tyranids should have weapons with lasting and corrosive effects, but they are sloppy compared to those of the more logical and tactically shrewd races. A blob of something that travels slow through the air, splatters everywhere and melts anything it touches, but at the cost of not being very accurate, for example.

There are ways GW can give them effective ranged abilities without just having a biomorph that grants +1 BS. Why not just up the cost of the unit that can buy it and give it to them anyway? It's likely GW will better define the roles of each unit in this codex (as they have throughout 6th), so it's a biomorph that would only be available to the "shooty" bugs. Most everyone would buy it because BS4 is great. The +1-stat biomorphs are a bit of a cop out when we could be getting something more unique and interesting.

I'd really like to see their shooting capability focused on secondary abilities - things that reduce the effectiveness of enemy shooting, facilitate the assault nids actually getting into combat, allowing them to be more effective once they are there - in addition to whatever damage they may cause.

Just increasing BS, S, AP or number of shots is boring and lazy balance imo.

Nids to me should always be a "CC first" army. They are the "Great Devourer" and as such should be eating people's faces off, not shooting them full of nasty worms.

 brassangel wrote:
Tyranids designed for shooting aren't really good at shooting, and wouldn't be as such in the classical sense.

Why? That doesn't make any sense. The Hive Mind devises numerous ways to destroy the enemy at range yet just doesn't bother to design an effective method of delivery?

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
I'd really like to see their shooting capability focused on secondary abilities - things that reduce the effectiveness of enemy shooting, facilitate the assault nids actually getting into combat, allowing them to be more effective once they are there - in addition to whatever damage they may cause.

Just increasing BS, S, AP or number of shots is boring and lazy balance imo.

Nids to me should always be a "CC first" army. They are the "Great Devourer" and as such should be eating people's faces off, not shooting them full of nasty worms.

The problem is 6e has not proven friendly to CC armies. While I hope this new codex will allow viable cc-based Nid armies, be prepared for a ****storm of Tau and Eldar players crying foul about it since both their armies crumble in CC (in the Eldar's case, most of the current competive units suck at CC)

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
So, do we know wether the parasite of mortrex is still there? I just finished painting mine.

Nothing more than the assertion that biomorph upgrades will cater to the special characters. Whether or not this means you can take, say, a Tyranid Prime with Wings, Implant Attack, Rending Claws, and the one-per-army "Implant Parasite" biomorph, that grants it all the special rules of the Parasite of Mortrex, remains to be seen. I can definitely see the Doom making a comeback in some form, although "Super-Zoanthrope with Absorb Life, Cataclysm and Spirit Leech" will probably be overall less effective than the Doom used to be.

Thanks. A had heard that the SCs would be upgrAdes.
Ps: what do we know about carnifexes?
I heard theyre gonna be heaps cheaper.
One more thing: trygons.