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 Absolutionis wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.

That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.

If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.

However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.

The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.

If this were the case, I'd expect Tyranids to have mediocre combat skills (BS 3/WS 3 - based on what they're good at BS 2/WS 2 for their non-preferred mode) from sheer ferocity, but get a bonus when they link into the hivemind and its "experience". It would make for a great reason to keep your Tyranids in synapse range if they get a +1 bonus to their preferred combat skill.

I'm fine with most Nids having BS3. The only ones I feel need BS4 (if not standard then at least a optional biomorph to get it) are Hive Tyrants, Warriors, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofex.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.

That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.

If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.

However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.

The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.

If this were the case, I'd expect Tyranids to have mediocre combat skills (BS 3/WS 3 - based on what they're good at BS 2/WS 2 for their non-preferred mode) from sheer ferocity, but get a bonus when they link into the hivemind and its "experience". It would make for a great reason to keep your Tyranids in synapse range if they get a +1 bonus to their preferred combat skill.

That would work, but then Tyranid players would be forced to memorize even more statlines with WS3 Hormagaunts and BS3 Termagants and BS2.5/WS2.5 Gargoyles in spite of them all being Gaunts. With pretty much everything in Elites, it'd be a nightmare of statlines. Then we have Warriors, Hive Tyrants, and Carnifexes that are a hybrid of sorts.

Plus, in the fluff, the Hive Mind doesn't give them expertise. It gives them direction. The Tyranids are born/created with the sole purpose of being a killing machine with their weapon that's attached to them. Outside of Synapse, they revert to "instinctive behavior", but they're still just as good with their weaponry in spite of being cowardly in their out-of-synapse confusion. It takes the Hive Mind to tell them where and what to do, not how to do it.

Overall, though, I agree. The stereotypical bane of Tyranids have always been "kill the synapse creatures!". As it stands, on the tabletop, synapse can mostly be ignored and the enemy focuses the most dangerous targets just as any other army. It'd be nice to have some sort of bonus that also acted as a weakness when taken away. It'd add a unique flavor to the army where rather than focusing the Carnifexes barrelling down the center, the enemy is encouraged to focus the Warriors nearby (and not only because of the Warrior's wargear).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
Stat ratings should be based on how the unit is meant to function on the tabletop within the army...not based on background.

That's the most rediculous thing I've heard here in a while.

If I design an army for close combat that army should be able to have statistics and abilities that allow them to play that way on the table top. The statistics of another army should be relevant only to compare the effectiveness of the two armies against each other in play. However, I often see arguments that army X should not have stat 4 because army Y already has it.

E.g. WS and BS mean that a model is good at a particular task in game. So if an Ork, Marine or Hormagaunt are all supposed to be good in HTH they could have WS4. Of course, people will complain about horde armies having stats equal to Space Marines but as we can see in the case of Orks it was necessary to make them function as they are meant to on the TT. This fits the archetype of the army - which of course should match the background or description of the army in the background.

However, folks often can't see past the fact that the fluff explains, e.g. Space Marines as being BS4 for various reasons so Sisters of Battle should not have been BS4. We end up with endless circular fluff arguments. When, in fact, the real reason for giving Sisters BS4 was so that the army could better function in its intended niche of a short ranged fire fight army.

I see a similar problem here. Folks have suggested that some specialised Tyranid creatures be good at their specialization. Others think that this is ridiculous - completely ignoring the fact that Nid creatures can be even more specialised than CWE. Stealers have no shooting, for example.

Will IG and CWE players whine about losing in assault? Possibly. But at that point can't I point to a huge pile of my own shooting casualties to vindicate our prowess in CC?

The irksomeness of Marine players whining that Devastators lose in CC to Stealers, despite tearing them apart with shooting will continue, no doubt. Or moaning that a large monster has dared to actually kill Terminators in CC (they are fine with other Marines doing that, curiously).

I apologise for ranting but I get the feeling that Nids have become a punching bag for in a lot of players heads.

I would like to see Nids have specialist shooting available to deal with things to which CC is not a practical answer. Not to be able to out shoot gunline armies the way they could under the 4Ed Codex.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
So, do we know wether the parasite of mortrex is still there? I just finished painting mine.

Nothing more than the assertion that biomorph upgrades will cater to the special characters. Whether or not this means you can take, say, a Tyranid Prime with Wings, Implant Attack, Rending Claws, and the one-per-army "Implant Parasite" biomorph, that grants it all the special rules of the Parasite of Mortrex, remains to be seen. I can definitely see the Doom making a comeback in some form, although "Super-Zoanthrope with Absorb Life, Cataclysm and Spirit Leech" will probably be overall less effective than the Doom usd to be.

If this happens I'll be superhappy. I just really don't hope we lose spores.

Can I get clarification on what "CWE" is please?

Craftworld Eldar.

You know the itinerant cousins to True Eldar

Two things I don't want to see in the new codex - Cruddace, and 'synergy'.

Not long at all now guys, we will be fielding flyer spam before we know it

James811 wrote:
Not long at all now guys, we will be fielding flyer spam before we know it

We are currently debating whether to get the codex and spend some time deliberating on what units to buy, or else pool our Christmas funds simply to get two (magnetized) Crones, and tool up with an all-flyer force simply to take down the one army that's tabled us, croissant spam. We like the player, but we want to kill his necrons.

The near-consensus that Gargoyles might be fieldable as troops seems to be fading away. But maybe we'll assemble a bunch more anyway.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
We are currently debating whether to get the codex and spend some time deliberating on what units to buy, or else pool our Christmas funds simply to get two (magnetized) Crones, and tool up with an all-flyer force simply to take down the one army that's tabled us, croissant spam. We like the player, but we want to kill his necrons.

I'd get the codex before I'd get the models. Besides not having the rules to know how to play said models, the flyers could turn out to be mediocre or even terrible. If the new flyers are T5 with a 4+ save like the current incarnation of the Harpy, those 'Scythes will probably eat them for dinner, all while being cheaper in points and more durable themselves.

The near-consensus that Gargoyles might be fieldable as troops seems to be fading away. But maybe we'll assemble a bunch more anyway.

By 'near-consensus' you mean a few guys including it on their wishlist? Haven't seen any real rumour about it at least.

Proxy before you pay.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
They are the "Great Devourer" and as such should be eating people's faces off, not shooting them full of nasty worms.

What's the fundamental difference between a gaunt eating someone's face off and some living ammunition worm eating someone's face off ? I think neither the Hive Mind nor the guy whose face is eaten care so much about it.

 Souleater wrote:
However, folks often can't see past the fact that the fluff explains, e.g. Space Marines as being BS4 for various reasons so Sisters of Battle should not have been BS4. We end up with endless circular fluff arguments. When, in fact, the real reason for giving Sisters BS4 was so that the army could better function in its intended niche of a short ranged fire fight army.

No, Sisters have BS4 because they are really good at shooting in the fluff. Yeah, as good as space marines or IG veteran. They do train a lot, start early, and are rigorously selected among a huge lot of potential candidates. IG usually start later and don't train as hard, marines usually start later and, well, between all their hormonal troubles, close combat training, chapter indoctrination, etc, really don't train as hard to shoot during their early life.

But still, we definitely should have some “rookie” sisters unit.

Regarding BS of our monsters I'm overall pretty happy with the stats of the army with a couple exceptions:

Hive Tyrants - The commanders of the army, and the iconic tyranid monstrous creature (aside from the carnifex) should be BS4. Tyranid primes are BS4, tyrants should be too.

Tyrannofexes - Currently their S10 gun is very strong on paper but very weak in execution. Being an assault 2 weapon, it doesn't have weight of fire enough to bring down vehicles through hull points in a single attack, relying on a "6" penetration roll to instead kill a tank (in 5th edition, a 5 or 6 would kill a vehicle for an AP4 weapon). Additionally, with BS3, it only hits with 1 of those shots on average, even further reducing it's capability for it's designed role. The gun needs a higher ROF or the creature needs a better BS. I vote for better BS, since that will keep its role at anti-tank and not suddenly make him a thunderwolf cavalry assassin, etc.

Hive guard and Zoanthropes are BS4, despite neither having eyes. That's because their designed role in the book is shooting, and they have lower WS values to compensate. Upping the Tyrant and T-fex BS by 1 and leaving all others where they are now would be a perfect fix to the current stats, in my opinion.


Now, that aside -- 11 more days until white dwarf, and 18 more until the codex release!

Souleater wrote:Nid creatures can be even more specialised than CWE. Stealers have no shooting, for example.

Exactly this. I don't mean that Nids should never have good BS - just that, as long as their shooting is effective it doesn't matter. For example, a Forgefiend has BS3 (being a Daemon Engine) but it remains a solid shooting unit due to its 8 S8 shots (with optional plasma). That's not to say that all Tyranids must have low BS and high volume of fire - there's absolutely no reason why a sniper-beast couldn't be created - just that it wouldn't be so much of a problem ("it should be more skilled because fluff" vs "it should be more skilled because it sucks in shooting even though it's a shooting unit"). If Genestealers were WS4 and had enough attacks to make up for it, it would be strange but it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Souleater wrote:The irksomeness of Marine players whining that Devastators lose in CC to Stealers

That just sounds funny. Does that really happen often?

Souleater wrote:
I would like to see Nids have specialist shooting available to deal with things to which CC is not a practical answer. Not to be able to out shoot gunline armies the way they could under the 4Ed Codex.

Yes. Like the Biovore... except not terrible. Hopefully the Exocrine will be good.

Ravenous D wrote:Proxy before you pay.

I heavily endorse this.

EDIT: I just love how Zoanthropes are still WS3/S4 and have Claws and Teeth. Also, the Doom (with appropriately heightened Strength) can be quite amusing in close combat. Poke their eyes out with your miniature scything talons!

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


Yes. Like the Biovore... except not terrible.

Biovores are great in 6th edition. Barrage sniping paired with large blast AP4 templates in an era where Tau and Eldar reign supreme gives them a ton of great targets in today's meta. Just stay away from the 2+ Re-rollable crowd, but nobody really has a hard counter to those lists yet (other than Revenant titans).

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Regarding BS of our monsters I'm overall pretty happy with the stats of the army with a couple exceptions:

Hive Tyrants - The commanders of the army, and the iconic tyranid monstrous creature (aside from the carnifex) should be BS4. Tyranid primes are BS4, tyrants should be too.

Tyrannofexes - Currently their S10 gun is very strong on paper but very weak in execution. Being an assault 2 weapon, it doesn't have weight of fire enough to bring down vehicles through hull points in a single attack, relying on a "6" penetration roll to instead kill a tank (in 5th edition, a 5 or 6 would kill a vehicle for an AP4 weapon). Additionally, with BS3, it only hits with 1 of those shots on average, even further reducing it's capability for it's designed role. The gun needs a higher ROF or the creature needs a better BS. I vote for better BS, since that will keep its role at anti-tank and not suddenly make him a thunderwolf cavalry assassin, etc.

Hive guard and Zoanthropes are BS4, despite neither having eyes. That's because their designed role in the book is shooting, and they have lower WS values to compensate. Upping the Tyrant and T-fex BS by 1 and leaving all others where they are now would be a perfect fix to the current stats, in my opinion.


Now, that aside -- 11 more days until white dwarf, and 18 more until the codex release!

I think you are totally spot on. I just would go just a little bit further to just clean up some of the different units roles vs. stats as some are WAY off. Here is a quick list of the "Oddities":

Venomthrope - Why is the Venomthrope WS3 and BS4 but has NO guns and can't ever use guns? Wouldnt it make more sense for him to be either WS3/BS0 or WS4/BS0? Either or since he is a support beast, it doesnt really matter

Hive Gurad - Hive Guard are one of the only units in the current codex with WS4, that makes no sense.

Mawlocs/Carnifexs - Both of these are primary close combat monsters but only have WS 3 (Carnifex's had WS 6 in 2nd ed for crying out loud). I would love to see both of these guys go to WS4

Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.

Pyrovores - Why on earth do these guys have the same stat for stat as a Biovore? They are on 60mm bases which are the same as Tyrants and Carnifex's but are Str/T4. I would *love* to see these guys become a mid range CC "bunker buster" type unit. Give them the same stats as a Grotesque (Str 5/T5, 3 Wounds, 3 attacks) and a torrent flamer or even better, heavy flamer. It would give them a unit role and set them apart from Biovores

I know this is all massive wish listing, but it's only because there is nothing coming in till someone gets the codex. My prediction just based on what we have seen is that the book will be VERY close to the 5th ed Tyranid codex with just some minor rules tweaks and point tweaks. If you think about it, that really isn't a bad thing as the 5th ed book has lots of great ideas, just the points are totally off in most cases and some of the rules are the worst written rules in history (Trygon tunnel anyone? Onslaught anyone?). So far I really like what I am hearing and cant wait to get my hands on this book.

@ FrozenOcean: actual devastors aren't too common - generally I see Long Fangs. The complaint that 'stealers kill them in CC is very real and quite common.

 Souleater wrote:
@ FrozenOcean: actual devastors aren't too common - generally I see Long Fangs. The complaint that 'stealers kill them in CC is very real and quite common.

I'm pretty sure that just makes it even funnier. Aren't Long Fangs essentially just Devastators but arbitrarily better "because Space Wolves"?

I think in regards to the Venomthrope being BS4 that it might have originally been intended to have some kind of ranged attack.

ghoulio wrote:
Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.

They are not even close to the same Lore wise.
Ymgarl Genestealers are extremely deadly Genestealers that want to hug the Hive Mind instead of run from it, and that are left behind after a planet is consumed.

Lictors are scout and assassin units who get reabsorbed every time.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think in regards to the Venomthrope being BS4 that it might have originally been intended to have some kind of ranged attack.

That's fine...for play testing rules. Never should have made it into the final product. It's just like Pyrovores. Clearly what they are now is the very first set of playtesting rules that just somehow got forgotten about and made it into the final product. We dont need to see how they got there lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

ghoulio wrote:
Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.

They are not even close to the same Lore wise.
Ymgarl Genestealers are extremely deadly Genestealers that want to hug the Hive Mind instead of run from it, and that are left behind after a planet is consumed.

Lictors are scout and assassin units who get reabsorbed every time.

I said ROLE wise, not lore wise. I mean on the table top they essentially do the exact same thing. Both start the game off the board, both appear out of now where and are assault units. Hell, Lictors essentially had the Ymgarls deployment options in 4th ed. The only difference now is that one works...one doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:

ghoulio wrote:
Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.

They are not even close to the same Lore wise.
Ymgarl Genestealers are extremely deadly Genestealers that want to hug the Hive Mind instead of run from it, and that are left behind after a planet is consumed.

Lictors are scout and assassin units who get reabsorbed every time.

"Lore" is only "role" when you switch the positions of the "l" and "r". Ghoulio means that they are both supposed to be ambush predators that leap from the shadows/behind you/terrain and kill your face. Ymgarls basically exist to steal the Lictor's thunder, so to speak; with the special "Dormant" rule, they can assault on the turn they come in, completely unlike Lictors. It's very strange - in the "lore", Lictors are described as the ultimate ambush predators, but the only thing they get from this is a sort of enhanced Deep Strike and no ability to assault on that turn (which invariably results in the death of the Lictor). The only justification for Ymgarl Genestealers (who are just weird Genestealers) is that they go to sleep a lot, while their "unique quirk" is supposedly their mutations (which absolutely nobody cares about). It just makes sense, from both the crunch and fluff standpoints, that Lictors should get the ability that Ymgarls have.

As for BS, I think it's rather funny. The Venomthrope has a Ballistic Skill and no shooting, but the Broodlord (which was granted access to shooting via Witchfires and random Psychic Powers) has BS0. It's like the Codex was future-proofed to still be silly even in the next edition.

Gah, I mustn't get caught up in more wishlisting. This thread is big enough!

EDIT: Ninja'd by Ghoulio!

ghoulio wrote:
I said ROLE wise, not lore wise. I mean on the table top they essentially do the exact same thing. Both start the game off the board, both appear out of now where and are assault units. Hell, Lictors essentially had the Ymgarls deployment options in 4th ed. The only difference now is that one works...one doesn't.

Sorry - dyslexia or something. I could've sworn you said lore... even went back to check for an edit. =x

Lictors were popping up and assaulting things many editions ago. They were fantastic at it in 2nd. Each successive codex has drifted further from their initial role.

In 2nd Edition Nids had a couple of ways of disrupting enemy shooting, of which the Lictor was just one. And our MCs were comparatively tougher and more dangerous, too.

Given how shooty 6th is I hope that Nids get similar tools and the ability to rip things apart in CC. I still miss the Space Hulk vibe of Nids in 2nd Ed.

Lictors were great in 2nd Ed. Lictor with a Voltage Field could go toe-to-toe with most characters. WS7 and 4 attacks was a wonderful thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lictors were great in 2nd Ed. Lictor with a Voltage Field could go toe-to-toe with most characters. WS7 and 4 attacks was a wonderful thing.

Dammit...I had forgotten just how amazing lictors were in 2nd lol. I miss them and I REALLY hope they are really worth taking (still some of my fave models period in any range).

Could just make the base stat 3 for BS and WS then for each melee biomorph (scything talons, etc) grant +1 WS and each shooting biomorph (rupture cannon, etc) grant +1 BS. Would this not denote a species designed to do their specific job?

Lictors are good assasins. Put a cluster of them against rear armor while staying in cover or pick off a devastator squad and have fun. 2 units of 3 lictors and 1 deathleaper is pretty deadly, esp if a tyrant can hand them OA (PE). They just require finesse.

Also, Hiveguard make sense with WS4. I play them aggressively and usually run them if at all possible. I try to melee rhinos and whatnot to blow them up or even charge them into a squad to clean them up.

You run and assault Rhinos with Hive guard? Instead of shooting them with the Str8 gun? From out of LoS?

wat