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 stonehorse wrote:
So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.

That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.

 JeffVimes wrote:
The guy said he started 40K recently. He might be missing crucial points. #wishfulthinking

Move over, I want to clutch this straw with you...

 kirsanth wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.

That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.

Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.

As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.

 stonehorse wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.

That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.

Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.

As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.

Where did the IB feed rumor come from?

I missed this one completely.

 stonehorse wrote:

Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.

As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.

That does not change my point at all, nor even challenge its validity.

Super-easy to kill models in a different unit are what is needed to keep our gribblies from killing themselves?
GOOD TIMES!

 ductvader wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.

That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.

Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.

As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.

Where did the IB feed rumor come from?

I missed this one completely.

From the person on Warseer who has the Codex, and has posted pictures of said Codex. All instinctive behaviour is now a chart, for Feed a roll of a 1 means that the unit/model attacks its self. We don't yet have the full mechanics of how this is resolved, but it is looking pretty grim, remember how we all laughed at Ripper Swarms due to their stupid special rule, well now we can do it at a lot more things. Huzzar!

 kirsanth wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.

As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.

That does not change my point at all, nor even challenge its validity.

Super-easy to kill models in a different unit are what is needed to keep our gribblies from killing themselves?
GOOD TIMES!

Spell casting... S A R C A S M.

 ductvader wrote:

Where did the IB feed rumor come from?

I missed this one completely.

From this guy who read the codex, he said :

Instictive behaviours are fixed per unit just like former codex.
However, there are three specific results per behaviour depending on dice.

Lurk : Fall Back / Can shoot only when hidden / Can shot only when hidden + Stealth

Hunt : Go to Ground / Shoot closest unit / Shoot closest enemy unit + Preferred Enemy

Feed : Inflicting hits on themselves / Assault closest enemy units / Assualt closest enemy unit + Rage

 kirsanth wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.

As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.

That does not change my point at all, nor even challenge its validity.

Super-easy to kill models in a different unit are what is needed to keep our gribblies from killing themselves?
GOOD TIMES!

I'm not saying anything.

Meh, I generally only ever have a unit out of synapse once per game...not too big a changer. Anyone leaving synapse generally isn't going to do too well either.

Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.

Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Where did the IB feed rumor come from?

I missed this one completely.

From this guy who read the codex, he said :

Instictive behaviours are fixed per unit just like former codex.
However, there are three specific results per behaviour depending on dice.

Lurk : Fall Back / Can shoot only when hidden / Can shot only when hidden + Stealth

Hunt : Go to Ground / Shoot closest unit / Shoot closest enemy unit + Preferred Enemy

Feed : Inflicting hits on themselves / Assault closest enemy units / Assualt closest enemy unit + Rage

Also, is it still passable on a test?

If so, you'll only be doing what the unit didn't want to do about 25% of the time.

Altruizine wrote:
Uh, I think the idea is that they're AP 5 + Rending. Not just AP 5.

I agree, and this (along with the bits someone pointed out about Raveners) is why people shouldn't panic about this stuff, even if it's from the codex. The person in question is either giving us incomplete information, or doesn't really understand what he's looking at.

I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.

BUT AGAIN...it's still way too early to freak out. Time and time again the denizens of this forum have declared a new codex to be dead on arrival and been proven wrong. It even happens after codices have been in players' hands for a while. You should have been here for the discussion of the 4th edition codex. It was *loudly* declared to be DOA, and even Nidzilla builds were met with a lot of skepticism early on. Then as people started winning and others started understanding how the list works, *only then* did it become the great scourge of 4th edition.

Personally, my gut is still saying look to the MCs....

I think the change makes synapse all the more important which does in fact give the army a theme that it's always been trying to have (Shoot the big ones). The idea thematically is that if you can kill the leaders of the Tyranid swarm the army defeats itself. Now that's very much a possible outcome on the tabletop too.

That said it has to come out balanced in the points costs. I suppose GW will do a piss poor job with a bunch of units like always making them either barely borderline usable or outright craptastic, but the armies will be carried by a few obnoxiously useful and underpriced units like possibly the Crone and Exocrine. It'll lead to a single main build with one or two minor variations. It's the same for almost everyone though. I think currently only the Tau book allows nearly everything to be used reasonably competitively. Every other army has atleast half of the units in the trash bin with the lid tightly closed. Yet, even with the aforementioned Tau armies, all the competitive armies look the same with only very few small differences.

The leaker confirmed they are AP5+ Rending; that said, there are a lot of indie rumors that are bad, but entirely incomplete. TBD on what's what. We'll all know in a couple days.

 gorgon wrote:
I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.

Just look at Eternal Crusade...

 Therion wrote:
I think the change makes synapse all the more important which does in fact give the army a theme that it's always been trying to have (Shoot the big ones). The idea thematically is that if you can kill the leaders of the Tyranid swarm the army defeats itself. Now that's very much a possible outcome on the tabletop too.

More than anything I think that this has given the army an even more aggressive stance than it already had. Tyranids can't wait and plan for a five turn game like Eldar, Tau, or Marines. They, as always and to a much greater extent now, have to win the game on turn 3 at the latest.

Wow, my one and only army.....sad day. I guess I'll just have to wait til Friday.

via DaBoarder & Mr. Mystery

Instinctive Behaviors

Lurk (Termagants have this)
Feed (Hormagaunts have this)
Hunt (Gargoyles have this)

Genestealers appear to neither have Brood Telepathy, nor Instinctive Behaviour. Hmm...

Psychic Powers:

Primaris: Dominion ???

Psychic Scream: 6" Nova, Target takes a 2D6+2-Ld wounds no armour or cover. 1Warp Charge

Warp Blast: 2 Warp Charges
24" S(5?) AP:3, Blast Assault 1
18" S10 AP:2, Lance Assault 1

If Psychic Scream can somehow stack with Shadow in the Warp - it could be pretty scary out there fighting the bugs.

 gorgon wrote:

Altruizine wrote:
Uh, I think the idea is that they're AP 5 + Rending. Not just AP 5.

I agree, and this (along with the bits someone pointed out about Raveners) is why people shouldn't panic about this stuff, even if it's from the codex. The person in question is either giving us incomplete information, or doesn't really understand what he's looking at.

I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.

BUT AGAIN...it's still way too early to freak out. Time and time again the denizens of this forum have declared a new codex to be dead on arrival and been proven wrong. It even happens after codices have been in players' hands for a while. You should have been here for the discussion of the 4th edition codex. It was *loudly* declared to be DOA, and even Nidzilla builds were met with a lot of skepticism early on. Then as people started winning and others started understanding how the list works, *only then* did it become the great scourge of 4th edition.

Personally, my gut is still saying look to the MCs....

True, Nidzilla seems to be very much alive with what we are hearing. The price drops all around mean more room for more big gribblies. Just hope that we can move away from mono builds that have been a staple for Tyranids due to the current Codex containing a staggering amount of inconsistencies. It is understandable why so many people are getting a bit frustrated with what we are hearing, as it seems that a lot of the issues from the current Codex are not being addressed, while new issues are being added.

The poster on Warseer, has said that Rending Claws do also have Rending, on top of being AP 5, that is an upgrade. Once which makes sense.

That being said, time will tell, not long now before we have the Codex in our hands.

via Stickmonkey from the Faeit 212 inbox.
Sorry that is the image from the apoc book. I hadnt even removed the shrink wrap from mine so did not realize.
Anyway I asked my sources. Word is they believe the data slate will contain 3 of the apoc formations for use in 40k, the vanguard infestation, subterranean swarm, and endless swarm. But with some slight rules changes away from apoc specific devices: for instance "without number" on the data slate supposedly changes to allow a single unit from the formation to reenter play on a roll of 5+ during the reserves sub phase.

meh_ wrote:
So people seem to have entered the denial mode now.

For the record, the five-stage model of grief is justifiably considered erroneous even when applied to actual grief, never mind to a 40k armybook. So feel free to rethink your angle of attack, friend.

As we are looking at a (admittedly larger) portion of the whole picture, interpretation of this codex is still subject to change.

However, here are my thoughts on this current batch of "rumors" from the Sinstrel leaks:

Overall we're getting a point decrease across the board; warriors and genestealers seem to have stayed the same, and rippers (for god knows why) went up in points. Everything else, especially the MC's, has lowered in points. That fact alone is substantially significant - what feels like unit "nerfs" has to be accompanied by we will have 20-30 percent more models in the same points list as we currently do. Target saturation is the name of the game with tyranids.

A lot of the big beasts and multi-attack units have had their base A stat lowered. This makes sense, as their points have gone down as well, and having 2 sets of melee weapons boosts their attacks back up. It's also a stealth boost to Trygons. I'll explain:

currently, trygons have an A stat of 6. When they smash, it goes to 3 + charge bonus. max 4.
With the rumored stat drop to 5 attacks, they'll still smash at 3. However they get their bonus for +2 sets of Cc weapons (ap6 talons, ooh) for 4 attacks, + charge bonus for 5 max smash attacks. For lower points. If they're not smashing they'll still have 6 attacks and 7 when charging. I'm sure other units will benefit from this slight change too.

Carnifexes went down in price by a TON. we saw that in the white dwarf. Now they lost a base attack as well. But, they gained +D3 hammer of wrath attacks (living battering ram) as well as never needing to smash with crushing claws (Sx2, armorbane, unwieldy [which MCs ignore]). Oh and it looks like they're I2 now, making them 33% more resilient to JAWS OF THE WOLF WOLF. Did i mention they went down in points by a super ton? Because they did.

There's a bunch of stuff I obviously don't know, i'm just going by what i've been reading. But while face value and "in a vacuum" analyses of the data are looking grim and dreadful, I'd like to actually play some games with the book before declaring it utter trash. We still haven't really seen the statlines for any of the new beasties, or points on naked tyrant guard, or all of the bio artifacts, yadda yadda yadda. Seeing it all play out on the table will be the final word.

Also cruddace wasn't named the Author in the white dwarf: they did an interview with him and he was "the hive mind's most formidible synapse creature". That could have been referring to the current codex, or just a BS title they wanted to use to make him sound "cool".

On instinctive Behavior tables - it looks like if it's a D3, 1/3 of the time failing is bad, 1/3 of the time it's annoying but not terrible (they don't appear to restrict movement, just shooting and assaulting targets), and the last 1/3 of the time it's a buff (kind of). So it's tolerable i think, and again keeping synapse creatures in the list and on the table should be important anyway. It was silly that I wanted to fail synapse on my trygons and carnifexes in 6th edition - it wasn't designed as a boon in 5th edition.

I'm rambling now. I'm extra excited. Hopefully some other folks will get their books early and chime in on how these changes appear to affect the army as a whole.

Dropping attacks on units like Trygons makes sense, since the extra attacks for the pairs of close combat weapons that they cam with stock were already included in their profiles. Now that we get it from the weapons themselves, it makes sense to remove the auto included attack.

 stonehorse wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

Altruizine wrote:
Uh, I think the idea is that they're AP 5 + Rending. Not just AP 5.

I agree, and this (along with the bits someone pointed out about Raveners) is why people shouldn't panic about this stuff, even if it's from the codex. The person in question is either giving us incomplete information, or doesn't really understand what he's looking at.

I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.

BUT AGAIN...it's still way too early to freak out. Time and time again the denizens of this forum have declared a new codex to be dead on arrival and been proven wrong. It even happens after codices have been in players' hands for a while. You should have been here for the discussion of the 4th edition codex. It was *loudly* declared to be DOA, and even Nidzilla builds were met with a lot of skepticism early on. Then as people started winning and others started understanding how the list works, *only then* did it become the great scourge of 4th edition.

Personally, my gut is still saying look to the MCs....

True, Nidzilla seems to be very much alive with what we are hearing. The price drops all around mean more room for more big gribblies. Just hope that we can move away from mono builds that have been a staple for Tyranids due to the current Codex containing a staggering amount of inconsistencies. It is understandable why so many people are getting a bit frustrated with what we are hearing, as it seems that a lot of the issues from the current Codex are not being addressed, while new issues are being added.

Oh sure, I get the frustration. I started Tyranids in 2nd edition, when they were fast and deadly. And in all their different incarnations since, they haven't really quite been that again. Null deployment was a lot of fun in 5th edition before GKs pretty much trumped them. Tyranids are still effective, I'm just not in love with their current playstyle. There's a reason why I have a Daemons project percolating, LOL.

But I'll be tinkering with this codex for a while. Again, Scuttlers in the 4th edition codex went largely unexploited for a year or two before a couple Dakkaites put together the right kind of list and showed that it could win tournaments. Sixth edition might naturally create some challenges for Tyranids, but I'll keep plugging at it. Fortunately my collection is large enough at this point that I can field a lot of different ideas.

It sounds like some kind of funny cliche, but Tyranids have been through so many evolutions over the years that it's forced Tyranid players to become very good at adapting.

Of course, if they loose re-roll to hit, they'll still hit less in the end. Hopefully the cost reduction offsets that. The Mawloc might overtake the Trygon in popularity if it's really only 130-140 points and its Terror from the Deep ignores cover like he indicated.

 Redemption wrote:
Of course, if they loose re-roll to hit, they'll still hit less in the end. Hopefully the cost reduction offsets that. The Mawloc might overtake the Trygon in popularity if it's really only 130-140 points and its Terror from the Deep ignores cover like he indicated.

Quite true - but imagine a trygon or trygon prime with a 2+ armor save (hinted at through a Ymgarl-type upgrade...maybe +1A, +1Sv, +1T that swaps every turn?)

Edit - I'm also betting that Regeneration (if point costed appropriately) makes it back in a big way. It's most likely going to be It Will Not Die USR for our big bugs, which at 5-15 points per model would be a STEAL.

Another Edit - If our Hive Tyrants and Tervigons have Mastery Level 2 they'll deny the witch vs most psykers on a 4+. Tervigons will be safer vs Jaws unless space wolf players start shucking out 50 extra points to make their rune priests ML2.

That's allegedly one of the bio-artefacts, which normally are expensive, only available to HQ characters and one-per-army. So maybe that the Trygon Prime has access to it (it wasn't listed in the HQ section of that eCodex army builder), but the regular one almost definitely doesn't.

It would still be cool.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Oh and it looks like they're I2 now, making them 33% more resilient to JAWS OF THE WOLF WOLF.

Do you mean Wolf of the Wolf Wolf, the wolf cast by the wolf priest from the space wolves, that famous wolf marine chapwolf ?
They sure do like naming things after wolves .

 ductvader wrote:


Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.

Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this.

Armoured Shell is most likely replaced by the Apex Biomorph on a single creature. So no.

Trygon losing reroll all hits is a huge nerf, regardless of a single bonus attack on the charge. The damage output is dramatically lower. Trygon will be shelf material, if this is true.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 ductvader wrote:


Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.

Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this.

Armoured Shell is most likely replaced by the Apex Biomorph on a single creature. So no.

Or yes, taking multiple shellrants isn't and wasn't ever necessary. To to mention that more often than not, IB does nothing or helps you.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 ductvader wrote:


Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.

Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this.

Armoured Shell is most likely replaced by the Apex Biomorph on a single creature. So no.

Trygon losing reroll all hits is a huge nerf, regardless of a single bonus attack on the charge. The damage output is dramatically lower. Trygon will be shelf material, if this is true.

Indeed. And still our fella hasn't mentioned anything about a Spore replacement, so the hope of a trygon tunnel actually being workable is dwindling, if we believe he's legit. But even if he is legit, he doesn't seem to know much about 'nids, so fingers crossed there are some buffs he hasn't quite fathomed.

We have arranged to get our copy midnight Friday, so not much longer till we're put out of our misery.

The Synapse thing really annoys me. A Carnifex eating itself because it can't talk to momma? Sigh...