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Plumbumbarum wrote:
It makes perfect sense and should stay.

Makes perfect sense and is terrible for game balance. Save modifiers also make perfect sense and are better for game balance.

Indeed, I'll probably be buying at least another couple of boxes of Fexes along with a couple of Crones, and maybe a Haruspex/Exocrine or two if they turn out to be any good. We shall see!

Just saying guys, in the picture of the tail weapons, it specifies that the pincer tail does not benefit from smash of poisoned, why would they need to specify this if the other tails do not benefit from USRs anyway? Unless the Smash USR for ap2 will still apply, please god let this be! it is the only hope i have in this new book, a few broods of fexes with mace tails....

sLeEpYrOcK wrote:
Just saying guys, in the picture of the tail weapons, it specifies that the pincer tail does not benefit from smash of poisoned, why would they need to specify this if the other tails do not benefit from USRs anyway? Unless the Smash USR for ap2 will still apply, please god let this be! it is the only hope i have in this new book, a few broods of fexes with mace tails....

...because it's an example. It's an example demonstrating how special rules don't apply to tail attacks, not a specific exemption. Let's not find grey areas where there aren't any,...

The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots

Fast and cheap gargoyles with h gaunts can create a real bum rush, and they are rumored to gain fc and poison from tervigons

I see 2 Ways of extending synapse and shadow which can shut down seer/screamer star.

extended synapse ranges can allow fast gribbles to go balls to the wall with a bum rush.

I hope bugs shake up the meta.

I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I hope bugs shake up the meta.

Ahahahahaha oh man, that's adorable.

Anyway...

Relics, excuse me, Bio-Artefacts.
Claws: Rending Claws + the possibility of PE. Worth not much more than the cost of regular rending claws. How much do you want to bet this means Old Adversary is gone?
Norn Crown: My one per army item will be spent duplicating my laughable Primaris power! Saves risking Perils, woooooo! More than 5 points and you probably won't see it.
Miasma Cannon: Least awful of the bunch I guess. Continues GW's inability to give Nids any AP3- shooting really.
Ymargl: One model only now. Armor bonus only lasts to the end of the phase, so you don't even get it against enemy shooting. Can't see taking this.
Reaper: Bonesword, +1S +3I in combat. (Can't have MCs not falling into Jaws now can we!). Meh. Guessing you'll see this sort of thing on Primes or something, because most MCs won't really need the +1S or +3I badly enough to warrant what I'm sure is an insane cost. Despite the description, I notice it doesn't actually state it comes with a lashwhip, which makes me wonder if you have to buy a bonesword then upgrade it to this thing.

Psychic Powers:
Note- Top of the page: "Tyranid psykers use the Powers of the Hive Mind, which is treated as a psychic discipline for all rules purposes." Not "May use" or "can use". Sort of improves the stance that we lost BRB powers, aka Biomancy. Could still be listed under the individual unit I guess.

Dominion: laughable. The instances where 6" extra will be meaningful have, for me at least, been pretty rare. Synapse tends to be beside or behind the little gribblies, and since you remove from the front 99% of the time, you're still in range. I guess combined with the norn crown you're looking at doubling Synapse, but if you need 24" synapse I feel like you've done something wrong.
Catalyst: Everyone will be rolling for this one. Only 100% good, always useful power.
The Horror: We've been over how mediocre-at-best Pinning is.
Onslaught: Run then shoot. So it will help you get into range to shoot, but not out of range of enemy shooting. Situational, helpful with our short range weapons, but ultimately all it does is spare your enemy having to move in the movement phase to shoot you back before he jumps away.
Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.
Psychich Scream: 6" nova power, Ld check blah blah blah. This is what people will actually roll when shooting for Catalyst. They will then cry quietly to themselves.
Warp Blast: Loss of AP1 on the lance version for no particular reason I guess. Not awful, but I'm not going to give my Tyrants just CC weapons in the hopes that I roll this up.


Bio-morphs:
Acid Blood: on a haruspex with his rumored ability to regain wounds this is fine I guess. I wouldn't pay points for it though.
Acid Maw: So I can exchange all my attacks for a single AP2 attack? You won't see this on MCs at all. There'd be no reason to use it. A model with Rending Claws is better off using those. Guessing Pyrovores have it, and this is their CC "Buff".
Adrenal Glands: What we expected, but I remain unimpressed. Fleet and Furious Charge are just not the rules they used to be, especially Furious Charge.
Blinding Venom: Maybe on Gaunts, but even then you're likely better off using your regular attacks. S3 (so Furious Charge won't help) and Poisoned 6+ is just "Meh".
Regeneration: Probably worth the 30 points. Will likely mean your opponents make sure to finish off your MCs before you get to roll at all, but it's still good. Best on the page.
Flesh Hooks/Spine Banks: So Flesh Hooks lose rending. We get assault grenades of a sort, but who wants to guess how many models that actually need them, will get to buy these. Carnifexes, unless there has been a great change, are probably still I1, so striking at I isnt exactly a BFD. I guess if I made a CC fex he'd at least get a S3 shooting attack! *finger twirl*
Toxin Sacs: Confirmed for CC only is expected. From what I recall, too costly for little gribs like Horms on a PPM basis. Most MCs will be wounding on 2s already. If the Tervigon can still pass these to nearby gaunts, you'll see them on Tervs. If not, you probably won't see them at all.
Tail Weapons: I can see Cruddace all over this garbage. All over it. Set strength and no AP worth mentioning, along with no special rules of the model using them? Worthless. Absolute garbage.


So now all that remains is Synapse. As it is unlikely that models in Synapse gain EW, rage, rampage, zealot, adamantine will, crusader, or basically anything other than Fearless, I think we can safely say Synapse will not be a game changer. It is entirely possible, if extremely unlikely, that Synapse got some massive buff that makes running a Norn Crown + Dominion Tervigon the best thing ever. I am not banking the cost of a codex on it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots

Sorry, wanted to give a real, non-snarky answer to this. Ork Boyz are only a few points more than Horms or Terms, are T4 and don't require Synapse support. They're hardly anything Eldar and Tau are "not set up to handle". With massed 30" S5 weapons or the ability to shoot you and then get away or all the other shenanigans available, swarms aren't exactly a weak spot for Eldar or Tau.

Also, I have seen 2 things which extend the range of Synapse. 0 things which extend the range of SitW.

Nem wrote:I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.

I didn't know Cruddace had a Dakka account.

sorry, serious non-snarky answer above. With set strengths and no AP3-, tail weapons are beyond meh. Mace Tail might be taken for attacking vehicles, but let's face it, destroying vehicles in CC isn't exactly a weak point for Tyranids.

The Tail weapons reek of inclusion just so GW can say "See, we gave you your biomorphs back!".

Jesus help me, what am I reading? This is not a new codex, it's Cruddace 1.5.

I really hope there's something significant we don't know yet.

 streamdragon wrote:


Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.

Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:


Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.

Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.

Well, that shows how often I use psychic powers I guess. So we can safely put Paroxysm into "why risk Perils?".

 streamdragon wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:


Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.

Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.

Well, that shows how often I use psychic powers I guess. So we can safely put Paroxysm into "why risk Perils?".

Could be useful. Making a squad of hammernators hit on sixes doesn't sound too terrible (provided it removes 3 from WS and BS. Not enough details on how it works)

Yeah, the tail weapons with set strength and No Ap is just silly. Shouldn't there be a strength bonus? Isn't that how nid weapons tend to work, by using the unit's stats and modifying it a bit? Or was that just 4th ed?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, the tail weapons with set strength and No Ap is just silly. Shouldn't there be a strength bonus? Isn't that how nid weapons tend to work, by using the unit's stats and modifying it a bit? Or was that just 4th ed?

I think that was 3rd. But yeah, it was a unique, cinematic rule. So they got rid of it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:


Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.

Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.

Well, that shows how often I use psychic powers I guess. So we can safely put Paroxysm into "why risk Perils?".

Could be useful. Making a squad of hammernators hit on sixes doesn't sound too terrible (provided it removes 3 from WS and BS. Not enough details on how it works)

Yeah, the tail weapons with set strength and No Ap is just silly. Shouldn't there be a strength bonus? Isn't that how nid weapons tend to work, by using the unit's stats and modifying it a bit? Or was that just 4th ed?

We know how it works. -D3 to both WS and BS. And yes, it will make it easier for your to hit and harder for them to hit you in return. But with your (theoretically) much larger number of attacks (not to mention hopefully going first!) you shouldn't be struggling to wipe out small units like Hammernators, even at 2+.

Edit: Not sure why I assumed you're fighting Hammernators with Horms. I guess they could save your MC a few wounds, but you'd require a few very lucky rolls to shift combat that much in your favor.

"Why risk Perils" might be a bit of hyperbole, but it's still hardly a game changer. Flamer weapons, for instance, are untouched. Blast weapons still hit 1/3 of the time off the bat. Overwatch is also unchanged, since you're still BS1. It's not completely awful, I grant you. -BS in shooting-centric 6th is never bad. I'm not finding it a saving grace though.

 streamdragon wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots

Sorry, wanted to give a real, non-snarky answer to this. Ork Boyz are only a few points more than Horms or Terms, are T4 and don't require Synapse support. They're hardly anything Eldar and Tau are "not set up to handle". With massed 30" S5 weapons or the ability to shoot you and then get away or all the other shenanigans available, swarms aren't exactly a weak spot for Eldar or Tau.

Also, I have seen 2 things which extend the range of Synapse. 0 things which extend the range of SitW.

Nem wrote:I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.

I didn't know Cruddace had a Dakka account.

sorry, serious non-snarky answer above. With set strengths and no AP3-, tail weapons are beyond meh. Mace Tail might be taken for attacking vehicles, but let's face it, destroying vehicles in CC isn't exactly a weak point for Tyranids.

The Tail weapons reek of inclusion just so GW can say "See, we gave you your biomorphs back!".

Orks hordes are a lumbering slow assault force. They hardly get into close combat before mid-game. They have low initiative.
What you eludes about hormagaunts is their ability to effectively rush the enemy, ability to attack the enemy on a favourable path, and using cover. Sure, they are not T4, but have I5, and their combination of move though cover, fleet & bounding leap will allow them to cross the middle of the board by turn 1.

Admitting I can't disagree with some of your negative points, but the general picture is not that dark. I do not think tyranids will be a super-powerful codex, like the overpowerness of tau & eldar.
But what I see now leads me to think it will be fun and enjoyable to play, and play against. See, I have a mate in my gaming club who is a long time tyranid player : actually he is relieved of what he has seen. Nice little boosts here and there, new OK flyers, previoulsy overcosted units that get a points rebate, yet no cheese and OP that currently annoys and upsets tau / eldars opponents in my club. We have the chance of having a relax approach and not having much competitive WAAC behaviour (except in case of occasional tournament training). In this context, the internal & external imbalances of tau or eldar codices make potential opponent cringe when taking rendez-vous on one hand, and on the other hand players of these codices make promises of using only one riptide / wave serpent (or even none) etc... Yes, state of the game is that desperate.
So if tyranid codex is closer to SM, DA levels, all the better.

I would have preferred 'mutation' over 'bio-artefact'.

Taking biomancy away from nids is nonsensical. It was the most useful and fluffy of the disciplines for them.

 N.I.B. wrote:
Jesus help me, what am I reading? This is not a new codex, it's Cruddace 1.5.

I really hope there's something significant we don't know yet.

Don't you mean 2.0? Rumour is after all he wrote the book again, but GW not giving credit so we interneters can't blame a specific person this time.

So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!

Well, at least until the next book comes out...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!

Well, at least until the next book comes out...

Quite the opposite perhaps. W40k may be regenerating from the wounds caused by tau-dar.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!

Well, at least until the next book comes out...

How about play tested at least 5 times and not math hammered.

Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs).

No wonder the world thinks of us gamers as geeks and nerds, and some even losers. We are complaining, crying, whaling about something that hasn't even come out yet, let alone try.

Davor wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:
Jesus help me, what am I reading? This is not a new codex, it's Cruddace 1.5.

I really hope there's something significant we don't know yet.

Don't you mean 2.0? Rumour is after all he wrote the book again, but GW not giving credit so we interneters can't blame a specific person this time.

No, I mean 1.5. It looks like the same codex, same old flaws with a sprinkle of new bits.

Davor wrote:
Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs).

How many leaked pictures of the Codex did those two rumour threads have?

Davor wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!

Well, at least until the next book comes out...

How about play tested at least 5 times and not math hammered.

Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs).

No wonder the world thinks of us gamers as geeks and nerds, and some even losers. We are complaining, crying, whaling about something that hasn't even come out yet, let alone try.

You wanna walk blindly into Saturday or whenever you pick up your codex feel free, my eyes are wide open with the posted pages so far.

Army wide nerfs with slight improvement to point costs. Nids are gonna be in a bad spot.

For those saying Dominion is worthless... I see potentially useful as a late-game or emergency "oh gak" option. It's all fine saying good players should have full synapse coverage, but there are times when you can lose control of some of board through unexpected actions or some really lucky dice rolls for your opponent.
All it takes is an unexpected string of poor armour saves (we've all had those moments) and you can find key units now have to assault the wrong target or won't shoot where you want them to.

There's also apparently nothing to prevent Synapse extension stacking, so for example if they Swarmlord has kept his 18" range he could cover a potentially massive 24" or even 30" radius. Throw in his movement range and it could easily help recover from a disaster.

Orks hordes are a lumbering slow assault force. They hardly get into close combat before mid-game. They have low initiative.
What you eludes about hormagaunts is their ability to effectively rush the enemy, ability to attack the enemy on a favourable path, and using cover. Sure, they are not T4, but have I5, and their combination of move though cover, fleet & bounding leap will allow them to cross the middle of the board by turn 1.

This is what confuses me.. In THEORY hormagaunts rush the enemy but WHEN in recent memory have they ever been "effective" at it? The answer is pretty much never except when using the 3rd ed book.

 streamdragon wrote:
Flesh Hooks/Spine Banks: So Flesh Hooks lose rending. We get assault grenades of a sort, but who wants to guess how many models that actually need them, will get to buy these. Carnifexes, unless there has been a great change, are probably still I1, so striking at I isnt exactly a BFD. I guess if I made a CC fex he'd at least get a S3 shooting attack! *finger twirl*

Warriors likely have access to flesh hooks as they are included in the new kit (good luck in getting them into combat though).

Overall I agree with your assessment of most of the stuff with the limited info we have on hand.

Personally, I think that the level of disappointment with everything we see here is due to a large portion of the community not understanding how these effects and abilities are going to play out against all of the different units that can take them. We were just handed a million tools with a million more ways to use them. Those arifacts, gonna be boss on a kitted prime or tyrant. Psychic powers, toned down from what they were but with vastly increased range...which for nonwitchfire is huge...it means we'll actually use them instead of just charging. And the biomorphs, oh the biomorphs. Say hello to fleeting flying I10 S7 reroll 1's to hit reroll all to wounds, instant death on 6s Tyrant...oh and you can give him 4+ pseudo it will not die or poison if you want.

The spit too? Bound to be fairly cheap and a fantastic anti tau/eldar weapon. Did it need to be ap3 or 2? No, because bugs have never had a problem killing 2+ or 3+ sv armies.

There's a whole lot of potential that people are missing.

Look at the ymgarl relic...on a prime in a squad? Fantastic!

Really, more than making a coordinated argument, I just wanted to geek out a little bit at all the possibilities.

Imagine running gargoyles into a squad, blinding them...and coordinating rippers into assault at the same time...awesome.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Flesh Hooks/Spine Banks: So Flesh Hooks lose rending. We get assault grenades of a sort, but who wants to guess how many models that actually need them, will get to buy these. Carnifexes, unless there has been a great change, are probably still I1, so striking at I isnt exactly a BFD. I guess if I made a CC fex he'd at least get a S3 shooting attack! *finger twirl*

Warriors likely have access to flesh hooks as they are included in the new kit (good luck in getting them into combat though).

Overall I agree with your assessment of most of the stuff with the limited info we have on hand.

Which I agree is good for CC warriors. One of the few upsides. OTOH, warriors are still overpriced and relatively fragile, so

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots

Sorry, wanted to give a real, non-snarky answer to this. Ork Boyz are only a few points more than Horms or Terms, are T4 and don't require Synapse support. They're hardly anything Eldar and Tau are "not set up to handle". With massed 30" S5 weapons or the ability to shoot you and then get away or all the other shenanigans available, swarms aren't exactly a weak spot for Eldar or Tau.

Also, I have seen 2 things which extend the range of Synapse. 0 things which extend the range of SitW.

Nem wrote:I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.

I didn't know Cruddace had a Dakka account.

sorry, serious non-snarky answer above. With set strengths and no AP3-, tail weapons are beyond meh. Mace Tail might be taken for attacking vehicles, but let's face it, destroying vehicles in CC isn't exactly a weak point for Tyranids.

The Tail weapons reek of inclusion just so GW can say "See, we gave you your biomorphs back!".

Orks hordes are a lumbering slow assault force. They hardly get into close combat before mid-game. They have low initiative.
What you eludes about hormagaunts is their ability to effectively rush the enemy, ability to attack the enemy on a favourable path, and using cover. Sure, they are not T4, but have I5, and their combination of move though cover, fleet & bounding leap will allow them to cross the middle of the board by turn 1.

Admitting I can't disagree with some of your negative points, but the general picture is not that dark. I do not think tyranids will be a super-powerful codex, like the overpowerness of tau & eldar.
But what I see now leads me to think it will be fun and enjoyable to play, and play against. See, I have a mate in my gaming club who is a long time tyranid player : actually he is relieved of what he has seen. Nice little boosts here and there, new OK flyers, previoulsy overcosted units that get a points rebate, yet no cheese and OP that currently annoys and upsets tau / eldars opponents in my club. We have the chance of having a relax approach and not having much competitive WAAC behaviour (except in case of occasional tournament training). In this context, the internal & external imbalances of tau or eldar codices make potential opponent cringe when taking rendez-vous on one hand, and on the other hand players of these codices make promises of using only one riptide / wave serpent (or even none) etc... Yes, state of the game is that desperate.
So if tyranid codex is closer to SM, DA levels, all the better.

Pretty much what I was going to say. The Hgaunts have the speed for a full turn 2 assault. The speed would be more similar to dog pile than green tide.

Broodlord with Acid Blood...not a bad buy! You either win challenges, or probably win in death.

Also, Horrify pretty much gives Genestealers their own version of grenades 50% of the time.

Davor wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!

Well, at least until the next book comes out...

How about play tested at least 5 times and not math hammered.

Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs).

No wonder the world thinks of us gamers as geeks and nerds, and some even losers. We are complaining, crying, whaling about something that hasn't even come out yet, let alone try.

And listen to you, complaining and whining as in this thread much worse and more rudely than anybody doing what you mentioned. People are merely responding the the information giving to them, if you would like to point out some hidden combo that we are missing inside the confirmed information that Spore Pods & Doom have been taken out and that we can't roll on the Biomancy table anymore, feel free to enlighten the rest us. However if you don't have an opinion on the news at hand other than calling us all nerds and whiners and telling us "wait for the codex to judge", I would suggest you leave this thread entitled "Tyranid News & Rumours Discussion" and return to the thread entitled "Tyranid 6E Codex Discussion" when it is made.