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 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

 Nem wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition.

If you only look at the bad stuff. Yeah.
If you look at everything, no.

If you only care to play HT and Tervies, your screwed. For everyone else, its a change, which looks pretty good overall.

Not saying I won't miss things, just that they were not everything. Biomancy for example, its great when you actually roll out Iron Arm, and then actually get a +3. Somehow I manage to survive when I don't though so (Crazy right?)... Yeaaaah...

Then lets go through the good stuff!

Fun optimism away!

Some stuff got cheaper
Hive Tyrant's can kind of shoot now (at the cost of melee and survivability options for a primarily melee based unit)
Venomphropes got better

And....that's it.

This truly counters all the massive negatives of this codex.

NamelessBard wrote:

 Nem wrote:

If you only care to play HT and Tervies, your screwed. For everyone else, its a change, which looks pretty good overall.

Actually, they are still the best (or close to) units in the codex.

I'm super pumped. 24 hours ago I was depressed, but new rumors have me very very excited for the codex! I genuinely think we are now at Daemon power level, above SM/DA/CSM.

PS, english biomorphs here for the monolingual readers... http://knighthammer40k.blogspot.com/2014/01/tyranid-biomorph-points-costs.html

 Imposter101 wrote:


Then lets go through the good stuff!

Fun optimism away!

Some stuff got cheaper
Hive Tyrant's can kind of shoot now (at the cost of melee and survivability options for a primarily melee based unit)
Venomphropes got better

And....that's it.

This truly counters all the massive negatives of this codex.

HTs could always shoot, so you can scratch that.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

BS3 (+1 if it doesn't move or assault that turn) and 24". Not exactly "long".

Knighthammer wrote:Evening all. There are scans of the spanish codex running around... thank Norn I've taken that class for five years! I'm not perfect, but I know what it says. Here's the Biomorph list for Tyranids, in English!

Basic Bioweapons: (warrior options I think)

spinefists free
devourer free
Deathspitter +5

Basic Biocannons:

Barbed strangler +10
Venom Cannon +10

Monstrous Biocannons:

Twin linked Deathspitter +5
Twin Linked Devourers with BL worms +15
Stranglethorn Cannon +15
Heavy Venom Cannon +20

Close Combat Bioweapons:

Rending Claws +5
Two Boneswords +15
Lashwhip and Bonesword +20

Thorax biomorphs:

Shreddershard Beetles +10
Electroshock Grubs +10
Dessicator Larvae +10

Major Biomorphs:

Toxin Sacks +10
Adrenal Glands +15
Acid Blood +15
Regeneration +30

Bioartifacts:

Maw-Claws of Thryax +10
Miasma Cannon +25
Norn Crown +40
Ymgarl Factor +40
The Reaper of Obliterax +45

1. Can't take Heavy VC and Stranglethorn Cannon
2. Haruspex can't take acid blood
3. Norn Crown/Ymgarl factor don't replace weapons, rest of bioartifacts do./quote]

NamelessBard wrote:

 Nem wrote:

If you only care to play HT and Tervies, your screwed. For everyone else, its a change, which looks pretty good overall.

Actually, they are still the best (or close to) units in the codex.

As individuals - maybe, but with new units filling in the 'gaps', as support, its just better. I'd rather use a mix of units now rather than just cramming as many of those in, we have actual options to deal with some situations we were lacking in previously (albeit because many people refused to take the over priced Tyrannofex). Like anything above ST6. We have lots of STR 6, but that never helped against AV13. Looking at you Necrons.

I have been sat across from Necron players in some situations where the only damn thing that can hurt them is Zoans lance, and then I've got to pass tests, and hit, then roll out to Pen... I now have other units which are multi purpose and can engage in this. I'm freaking jumping for joy, worst thing about the current codex for me = fixed. Woo.

 Carnage43 wrote:

You don't....math...do you?

T5 W4 2+Sv, 3++ EW chapter master, with lets say a thunder hammer (because the double relic thing still isn't hammered out)
T6 W4 3+SV, No++ No EW Tyrant,

Do you?

230 - 165 =/= 0

That's what smash is for.

New List: 1500 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant (230pts)
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked, 1x Wings

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Termagant Brood (180pts)
- 30x Termagant
- 15x Devourer
2. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 30x Termagant
3. Tervigon (195pts)
4. Tervigon (195pts)

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
3. Zoanthrope (100pts)
- 2x Zoanthrope

----- Fast Attack ----------------------

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Carnifex Brood (300pts)
- 2x Carnifex
- 4x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked

6 Psychic power rolls plus 2 Warp Blasts
36 TL Devourer shots
24 T6 Wounds

New List: 1995 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant (230pts)
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked, 1x Wings


----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Termagant Brood (180pts)
- 30x Termagant
- 15x Devourer
2. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 30x Termagant
3. Tervigon (195pts)
4. Tervigon (195pts)

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
3. Zoanthrope (100pts)
- 2x Zoanthrope

----- Fast Attack ----------------------

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Exocrine (170pts)
2. Tyrannofex (175pts)
3. Carnifex Brood (450pts)
- 3x Carnifex
- 6x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked

.6 Psychic power rolls plus 2 Warp Blasts
48 TL Devourer shots
40 T6 Wounds

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ork warbosses used to be bs 4 too... now they are bs2...

And Orks are terrible. I don't see what point you're making here.

the point being, GW says nids are a CC army, CC armies shouldnt allso be excellent at shooting.

why does a CC army have some of the best shots inthe galaxy in it? since BS is much mor static then WS (ie anything over 5 is basically irrelevant) bs4 is a big deal. Only stuff that is a REALLY good shot is bs4, and if even the CC themed armies have bs4, then there isnt much +1 room for shooty armies, let alone shooty characters.

Im not saying its "fair" or good... I am saying why they did what they did seems to be a themematic one, akin to what they have done with orks in the past.

not saying it makes sense... gw has a str 9 ap3 template in the IG codex for 125 pts, and the same thing but better for 75 pts in the FW book... things just do not add up if you do the math sometimes.




as for the buffs to the bugs.. there are FAR more then some of the nay saysers are saying... the lance rule on zoans, on a str 10 ap1 weapon, with the ability to have multiple shots?

hello, pen on a 2+, blow up on a 4+...

20% points reduction cross the board is HUGE... cheap as feth carnifexes, you can still get the 2+ saves (althought only in assault now it seems?) but to be honest, the things that are taking you out at a 3+ with no ++ are still going to take out out on a 2+ with no ++...

not having a ++ is stupid, but welcome to the world of guard, orks, tau/everyone who isnt marines or necrons/DE/eldar

thats why you have tyrant guard, and lots and lots and LOTS of big t6 multiwound things with 3+ saves... sure they can take some of it down, but #'s are supposed the be the nids thing, horde is supposed to be a play style, GW is obviously encouraging this. good or bad.

faster guants, they are now basically the fastests troops CC, that fleets +3inch run is huge....

again the pts reduction is huge,

 The Shadow wrote:
The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

24" is "long range"?

24'' and BS3 is apparently good, long-range shooting, yes.

not everything has to be broken like Tau/Eldar guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!

 Therion wrote:

 Thranriel wrote:
So Quad gun vs the Crone or Harpy anyone?

If they're T5 4+ you can just forget all about them. Every skyfire autocannon, high-yield missile pod, heavy burst cannon etc. will mow them down, and it's not like they have an easy time vs. the standard tesla spam either.

One of the flyers better have SV3+ like the first rumours indicated.

The only good part about this will be that I will not have to buy them at all. It will make my wife and my wallet very happy......I'll be a very sad panda, though....

Fragile wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:


Then lets go through the good stuff!

Fun optimism away!

Some stuff got cheaper
Hive Tyrant's can kind of shoot now (at the cost of melee and survivability options for a primarily melee based unit)
Venomphropes got better

And....that's it.

This truly counters all the massive negatives of this codex.

HTs could always shoot, so you can scratch that.

"Some stuff got cheaper"

Virtually everything got cheaper. Actually, what didn't? Hive Guard and Tervigons, surprise. But everything else is cheaper or better now than before, literally everything. Not all will be worth it (Warriors, stealers) but I can think of many units that are now VERY worth their cost.

HQ: Deathleaper, Tervigon, Tyrant
Elites: Hive Guard, Venomthropes, haruspex
Troops: Gants, Hormagants, Tervigon
Fast Attack: Gargoyles, Crone,
Heavy Support: Carnifex, Mawloc, Biovore, Exocrine, Tyrannofex (these are ALL freaking amazing. I'm stumped for choices. Heavy is the new Elite)

So yeah, no stealers, no warriors. Deal with it and stop whining. This is going to be really good. This is an army that is pouring STRAIGHT up the field at you and is tough as heck to gun down in time, and there will be shooting while they do it!

 jifel wrote:
Deal with it and stop whining.

Here's an idea: Stop dismissing any criticism as "whining".

Or would you rather we dismiss optimism as "mindless white knighting"?

Your choice.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or would you rather we dismiss optimism as "mindless white knighting"?

Wouldn't be the first time.

In other news, I find the cost idea pretty important. Will the units be cheap enough that minor nerfs here and there be made up for? I.e. Will Quantity become a Quality of its own?

@jifel

Thankyou for your explanation.

 Nem wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Nem wrote:

If you only care to play HT and Tervies, your screwed. For everyone else, its a change, which looks pretty good overall.

Actually, they are still the best (or close to) units in the codex.

As individuals - maybe, but with new units filling in the 'gaps', as support, its just better. I'd rather use a mix of units now rather than just cramming as many of those in, we have actual options to deal with some situations we were lacking in previously (albeit because many people refused to take the over priced Tyrannofex). Like anything above ST6. We have lots of STR 6, but that never helped against AV13. Looking at you Necrons.

I have been sat across from Necron players in some situations where the only damn thing that can hurt them is Zoans lance, and then I've got to pass tests, and hit, then roll out to Pen... I now have other units which are multi purpose and can engage in this. I'm freaking jumping for joy, worst thing about the current codex for me = fixed. Woo.

Ok, I am admittedly a cynic and a pessimist. But I don't see anything filling in almost any gaps here.

The role filled by Biomancy especially has been just straight gutted with nothing to replace it except crossing your fingers and hoping 10-20% more target saturation thanks to point drops is going to help your big creatures survive.

Spores are gone with nothing to replace their role or otherwise fill that gap.

The Harpy is identical (i.e. crap) with the Crone now providing at least some anti-air, if it survives long enough to do so, so I guess that counts as AA sorted to you?

Haruspex does not fill any missing role at all.

Exocrine gives some medium-range AP2 shooting, which is nice.

What exactly are you pointing at that's going to help with AV13? Even Zoanthropes are slightly worse at anti-tank with the nerf to AP on Warp Blast.

Why are you "rawr"-ing about no longer being reliant on Biomancy? Nothing has actually replaced it, you're just barred from using it. There's no point of pride here, unless you're just proud of being forced to use weaker, less useful powers, and no telling the army isn't still "reliant" on it the same way a person with their liver removed is reliant on their missing liver.

I dunno, I just see absolutely nothing to be optimistic about. Maybe a list of actual, meaningful buffs or strong points to counter the many, many lists of nerfs and glossed-over units that weren't fixed?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Deal with it and stop whining.

Here's an idea: Stop dismissing any criticism as "whining".

Or would you rather we dismiss optimism as "mindless white knighting"?

Your choice.

Well, I'd rather not have "mindless" in there, white knighting is ok though. But this does happen every time. The codex never does what we want or expect, but it ends up doing other things better. I'm mad that I can't use Warriors or Stealers effectively, and that I had 15 models from my army straight out removed. But, this won't be the "awful" book many people say it will. Their criticism is valid, heck I whined a bit too. But there's more to the book than just "what we wanted to be good won't be."

If your going to compare apples with pears don't be confused to why pears look like pears and not apples.

Here's another difference between Tau and Tyranids, Tau run away more and insta kill themselves on the table edge. Tyranids looking very OP now?

If you want to compare, compare Tyranids or at least something like Tyranids with Tyranids. Is that gun good? Compared to everything we currently have, it is very good. Rules - as an army - make up the picture. Not one or two bits of it, synergy people.

Tyranids do not want or need the fire power of Tau, they should not have the fire power of Tau. 24 is a good range for Tyranids. AP2 is very good for Tyranids range weapons. HIgh assault means were not just going to miss every shot (looking at you Mr Hive Guard). Fills a gap, does it more reliably than the current go to unit.

Everything got cheaper and people are saying this is a good thing? While technically it IS a good thing think about why they would possibly do something like that...

Ohh to make sure that now everyone needs to own 100+ gaunts and 10+ MCs plus what ever other medium sized beasties you are using in a 1850 list. It is insane. Basically I am going to have to spend a gak ton of money just to bring my army back up to the point limit I used to play at.

On top of that almost all existing units got worse but the new ones are an absolute must have in almost every case. Exocrine is amazing, not Wave Serpent amazing but still good. Crone is fantastic. I mean, I know we all know the joke about how GW pushes new kits by making those kits must haves for the army but this is a new step up. The new kits are must haves and everything old is junk.

Just...after reading this information about units, the laughably bad artifacts, the lack of biomancy...everything about this sucks. So what if my crappy units got cheaper, they are still crappy. Can I still win with the new codex? Probably. Can it be a contender with Tau/Eldar/Deamons? No chance. Can I play a CC based army with this codex? Yeah but it is going to suck. Can I play a shooty as hell army? Yeah and it will be okay at best.

Even if the crunch is okay for this new codex, I feel like they are taking nids far and away from the reason I started playing them in the first place and have shown once again that they have no idea how to make the bugs work. I would argue that the 5th edition Tyranids codex was the worst 5th codex and it looks like we are just getting a reprint with the 6th fixings. It is bs and I probably wont buy it, this may very well be my out to 40k. Not just this, I have so many problems with 40k from Escalation, to Tau/Eldar power list, to pricing...this is just the final straw. I have 6 armies but Tyranids have always been my absolute favorite and this new codex is shaping up to be crap and I am just so tired of GW and their poor excuse for game support.

Reminder that Robin Cruddace has a doctorate in Physics but instead chose to pursue a career in terrible game design.

 pretre wrote:
In other news, I find the cost idea pretty important. Will the units be cheap enough that minor nerfs here and there be made up for? I.e. Will Quantity become a Quality of its own?

That's the Ork way of doing things. Tyranids are a case of "Anything you can do I can (eventually) do better", and not "Anything you can do I can do cheaper and in a less effective manner".

Mawlocs are going to destroy tau now. No hiding behind that defense line anymore.

Interesting seeing it all in Spanish. A lot of units seem to have taken a bit of a hit, but on the other hand almost everything is 10-20% cheaper. This could be the codex that encourages enormous amounts of numbers spam (and what could be more Tyranid than that?).

I am probably going to end up running a Carnifex trio with Crushing Claws, Spine Banks and Adrenal Glands (450 points?) and either a walking Tyrant or Swarmlord with three Crushing Claws Tyrant Guard. The Swarmlord is probably safer (but more expensive of course) and has a better chance of getting Catalyst. Catalyst on his own unit and the Carnifex trio will be excellent.

Support with a Tervigon or two and thirty-sixty Termagants for objective control (and a couple more chances at Catalyst), and then add in some ranged power for the necessary anti-air/skimmer. This might take the form of a Winged Tyrant, or perhaps a Crone or two depending on how things work out with them. Hive Guard are still tempting, too.

I'm also now very, very tempted by my brood of thirty Toxic Hormagaunts, which are now really, really fast. Again, they will work best with Catalyst support, but then what doesn't?

I also want to give my Lictor trio a spin again, and they've never been cheaper so now is as good a time as any.



On the whole there is a lot of shaking up to consider, some answers to current "questions" and a few nasty surprises. Not making a proper judgement until I see the whole book, but I really do think that this time Tyranids are going to be less about psychic power spam and more about flooding the game with as many units as possible and just wearing the enemy down.

 Nem wrote:
If your going to compare apples with pears don't be confused to why pears look like pears and not apples.

Here's another difference between Tau and Tyranids, Tau run away more and insta kill themselves on the table edge. Tyranids looking very OP now?

If you want to compare, compare Tyranids or at least something like Tyranids with Tyranids. Is that gun good? Compared to everything we currently have, it is very good. Rules - as an army - make up the picture. Not one or two bits of it, synergy people.

Tyranids do not want or need the fire power of Tau, they should not have the fire power of Tau. 24 is a good range for Tyranids. AP2 is very good for Tyranids range weapons. HIgh assault means were not just going to miss every shot (looking at you Mr Hive Guard). Fills a gap, does it more reliably than the current go to unit.

Considering that Tau and Eldar make up about 50% of the competitive meta by themselves, you're either a fool or a beer and pretzels player (and there's nothing wrong with that) to not compare Tyranids to them.

There is a difference between design, I.E., how the army plays, and effectiveness, how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have against another persons army by choosing to play your army. Tyranids might have a different design in how they play from Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Space Marines whatever. But all armies should have the exact same effectiveness, to the best of their abilities. All the data we have seen thus far, from rumors to outright scans from the codex, point to Tyranids not having the tools necessary to be as effective as other armies in the meta. That is a problem, and it's worth being unhappy about. I don't think people appreciate that the "doom and gloom guys" who are complaining about the army have probably put it in just as much time, money and effort into the army as you. It's entirely reasonable for someone whose spent hundreds to thousands of dollars and hours on an army to expect it to be able to compete, and it's also entirely reasonable to expect them to be unhappy if the data that they are given (rumors and codex scans) don't indicate that to be the case.

And for the record, anyone who says "I remember the rumors for Tau and Eldar, everyone expected them to suck" is either outright lying to try to prove a point, or just has a poor memory. By the time we got to this point of their releases, there was MASSIVE hype for Tau and Eldar. The confirmed rules and point costs for those two armies was leaving the majority of the community with a very positive impression. The only criticism I recall is the disappointment with their flyers (which, low and behold, turned out to be complete ass), and broadsides getting nerfed (which, low and behold, did in fact happen).

Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

For the time being... I'm still expecting 7E to make MC's non-scoring like vehicles.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Nem wrote:
If your going to compare apples with pears don't be confused to why pears look like pears and not apples.

Here's another difference between Tau and Tyranids, Tau run away more and insta kill themselves on the table edge. Tyranids looking very OP now?

If you want to compare, compare Tyranids or at least something like Tyranids with Tyranids. Is that gun good? Compared to everything we currently have, it is very good. Rules - as an army - make up the picture. Not one or two bits of it, synergy people.

Tyranids do not want or need the fire power of Tau, they should not have the fire power of Tau. 24 is a good range for Tyranids. AP2 is very good for Tyranids range weapons. HIgh assault means were not just going to miss every shot (looking at you Mr Hive Guard). Fills a gap, does it more reliably than the current go to unit.

Considering that Tau and Eldar make up about 50% of the competitive meta by themselves, you're either a fool or a beer and pretzels player (and there's nothing wrong with that) to not compare Tyranids to them.

There is a difference between design, I.E., how the army plays, and effectiveness, how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have against another persons army by choosing to play your army. Tyranids might have a different design in how they play from Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Space Marines whatever. But all armies should have the exact same effectiveness, to the best of their abilities. All the data we have seen thus far, from rumors to outright scans from the codex, point to Tyranids not having the tools necessary to be as effective as other armies in the meta. That is a problem, and it's worth being unhappy about. I don't think people remember that the "doom and gloom guys" who are complaining about the army have probably put it in just as much time, money and effort into the army as you. It's entirely reasonable for someone whose spent hundreds to thousands of dollars and hours on an army to expect it to be able to compete, and it's also entirely reasonable to expect them to be unhappy if the data that they are given (rumors and codex scans) don't indicate that to be the case.

And for the record, anyone who says "I remember the rumors for Tau and Eldar, everyone expected them to suck" is either outright lying to try to prove a point, or just has a poor memory. By the time we got to this point of their releases, there was MASSIVE hype for Tau and Eldar. The confirmed rules and point costs for those two armies was leaving the majority of the community with a very positive impression. The only criticism I recall is the disappointment with their flyers (which, low and behold, turned out to be complete ass), and broadsides getting nerfed (which, low and behold, did in fact happen).

I agree that you should compare them to the tournament winners right away to establish whether you have any chance of competing, but I've yet to see a single reply discussing that fact. All that people are saying is that stuff could be stronger and that many individual rules are bad (and I agree). So have you established the fact that a 1750p or 1850p list cannot be constructed from the codex that could compete with Triptide/Quadtide/Ovesastar/Jetseers/Serpent Spam/Screamerstar/Cron Air Wraiths/Heldrakes? I don't think you or anyone else has even got started on that project yet. My first hunch is that there's a few lists there that pose a lot of problems, but not all of them.

And for the record, anyone who says "I remember the rumors for Tau and Eldar, everyone expected them to suck" is either outright lying to try to prove a point, or just has a poor memory. By the time we got to this point of their releases, there was MASSIVE hype for Tau and Eldar.

This part of your post is outright bullgak. I don't know how far Dakka search goes, but if it goes back to the Tau release you'll find me and some other guy saying every single competitive Tau army will have 3 Riptides and 10 or more people arguing against that fact, calling Riptides overpriced if not outright bad for what they can do. Tau had a very mixed response. Some believed it to be strong, but a lot of people declared that they'll quit (just like Nid people do now) since it didn't live up to their expectations. As far as Eldar are concerned I personally despised that codex from the moment the rumours started trickling since it solidified the fact Phil Kelly is a relic of the past and shouldn't be allowed to games design anything. That codex is just so full of fail only the CSM are worse. Take away Serpent Shield and allies and it's one of the worst books in the game, but most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now, if not longer.