Tyranid Release in January: GW pre-orders up, discussion starts pg 80

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**Red Corsair**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
hyv3mynd wrote:
You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.

Exceptionally well said. Nothing more to add really.

Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.

**rigeld2**

I totes read that as "Breast Feeding".

**Red Corsair**

rigeld2 wrote:
I totes read that as "Breast Feeding".

ROFL!

**Imposter101**

Stats

**Nem**

The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.

**Battlesong**

Iracundus wrote:
It seems almost as if GW was more about applying nerfs. Then when it came to applying some improvements, scratched their heads at a loss and settled for a few minor point decreases and characteristic fiddling (that nonetheless does little to change the overall usefulness of the unit).

Is there anyone actually passionate about the Tyranids on the design team or are they "phoning it in"?

I honestly believe that they have no idea what they want Nids to be, or how they want them to play. This is the issue with making an army that is such an outlier for everything else. That, and this gak has Crud's earmarks all over it

**H.B.M.C.**

Red Corsair wrote:
Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.

Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?

Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.

**Imposter101**

Nem wrote:
The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.

How are they being blown out of proportion? And which ones?

Also, that's only one of several issues with the Tervigon. Your forgetting the whole factor of killing even more Termaguants, no biomancy, having to roll for psychic powers and the fact that in order to properly use the model you need to spend an additional 150 points,

**H.B.M.C.**

One of the biggest problems with this new Synapse/Instinctual Behaviour thing is that it appears to be all downside and no benefits.

Synapse was an interesting concept that has always struggled to balance the good with the bad. On one hand, Synapse should provide a benefit to the things under it, yet at the same time a penalty to those that are outside of its influence. In years past we've seen Synapse grant EW, but then really not do all that much "bad" to things that are outside of Syanpse. Now we've flipped that completely around (typical GW pendulum-style rules writing, as always) where we have no benefit for being in Syanpse and lots and lots of bad stuff (nearly 50% chance of units running away or just losing half their number) for being outside of it.

I think the current IB could be perfectly fine if being within Syanpse had some decent buffs (benefits to Deny the Witch, re-roll charge/run as the direct will of the Hive Mind pushes the creatures forward, even Eternal Warrior). Sadly such middle of the road ideas always pass GW by. It's either one or the other with them. Never somewhere in between.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

Imposter101 wrote:

Also, that's only one of several issues with the Tervigon. Your forgetting the whole factor of killing even more Termaguants, no biomancy, having to roll for psychic powers and the fact that in order to properly use the model you need to spend an additional 150 points,

this is a pretty good example of the sky-is-falling rhetoric - that you've doubled the gaunt tax, which goes from 50(10 x 5) to 120 (30 x 4), an increase of 70, not 150. And those 70 points actually add something to your army. This was plainly done to make 'nids more swarmy - there's a good justification for it.

Yes, your other points mostly stand, but like much of this thread, you're overdramatising the problems by about 100 per cent.

**George L.**

Some awesome new minis here. The harpie is probably my favourite out of the lot. Shame about the lictors not getting a boost but silver lining... Biovores get an extra attack!

**HiveFleetCollossus**

Lol. More Google translate crap. Think I'll stop here.

Carnifex special rule (suckily traslated):

Living Ram: when this miniature hammer attack charges into anger instead of just 1 attack. (Any idea what this means?)

Zoanthrope - Special Rules:

- Synapse Creature, Phycic brotherhood, very bulky, Shadow in the warp (Awesome that these guys have SITW.)

- 3 + Invul. Save

- Psychic progeny: Offspring of Zoanthrope follows all the rules of a Brotherhood of Psychics, except that it has Mastery level of 2. In addition, if a progeny of use Zoanthropes Warp Lightning Power (pg. 69), effected many shots as Zoanthropes have in this progeny.

For example: A Progeny three Zoanthropes that manifeste successfully power Warp Ray considered that both the burst profile as the launch is Assault 3

**Therion**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
L0rdF1end wrote:
hyv3mynd wrote:
MVB did a good first glance here:
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2014/01/tyranids-early-reaction-from-long-time.html?m=1

My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.

If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.

I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.

There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.

QFT
Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.

Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.

Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.

Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.

How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.

This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.

You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.

You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.

What a brilliant post and a great synopsis of the new Tyranids. I salute you.

So... Imperial Guard are next. Who wants to roll a D6 to see what happens? 1: The weakest and least imaginative codex ever designed by GW. 2-5: Small improvements combined with vast quantities of squandered potential and "buy more models" design decisions. 6: A competitive and interesting book greeted with a mixed response due to the beer and pretzel crowd wanting something completely different and unexplainable. I'm excited.

**Red Corsair**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.

Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?

Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.

MVB is the TO for the NOVA. Hyv3mynd posted a link to his opinions which he has adopted rather then make his own which I happen to aggree with some points, but would rather wait and play a bit before making braod generalizations.

Yes Tervigons and hiveguard got worse, but YOU would have to be foolish not have seen this coming. They were idiotically under cost before.

**Imposter101**

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Imposter101 wrote:

Also, that's only one of several issues with the Tervigon. Your forgetting the whole factor of killing even more Termaguants, no biomancy, having to roll for psychic powers and the fact that in order to properly use the model you need to spend an additional 150 points,

this is a pretty good example of the sky-is-falling rhetoric - that you've doubled the gaunt tax, which goes from 50(10 x 5) to 120 (30 x 4), an increase of 70, not 150. And those 70 points actually add something to your army. This was plainly done to make 'nids more swarmy - there's a good justification for it.

Yes, your other points mostly stand, but like much of this thread, you're overdramatising the problems by about 100 per cent.

I made a mathematical error. The response is to create a poor straw man at the end of your post. I'd avoid that in the future.

**H.B.M.C.**

Red Corsair wrote:
Yes Tervigons and hiveguard got worse, but YOU would have to be foolish not have seen this coming. They were idiotically under cost before.

Wait, so you acknowledge that these units got worse but now somehow it's our fault that we "didn't see it coming"?

Don't strain your back moving those goal posts, ok?

**hyv3mynd**

Nem wrote:
The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.

So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.

How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.

Definitely overreacting.

I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.

**H.B.M.C.**

hyv3mynd wrote:
I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.

It's about the only explanation I can think of.

**xttz**

Google Translate is giving something in Spanish->English as "grasping forceps". I almost prefer reading the spanish version.

Seriouspost time... are we really sure Warriors are still terrible? Obviously they're not going to be awesome and game-changing now, but hear me out.

1) Venomthropes got a nice overhaul, and it's easily possible to get 2+ or 3+ cover from these guys.
2) Synapse is more important than ever thanks to IB, and Warriors are the cheapest source of Synapse.
3) Warriors are scoring, and after Tervigons have become a liability capable of wiping out half your army decent Troop options are in short supply. It's not like you can seriously use Rippers or 'stealers.
3) They extend SitW and disrupt enemy psykers.
4) The Venom Cannon is a bit cheaper, and lost the damage table penalty.
5) Flesh Hooks and Fleet are now an option on Warriors, making it more realistic to engage enemies in cover.
6) You can outflank a Warrior brood with a Prime into a threatening position.

I'm not saying these units are going to win any tournament, but perhaps there will be a greater demand for them now.

**MVBrandt**

Since I'm being quoted, I did caveat at the very beginning of the article

Here's my initial thoughts on it, keeping in mind all of this will be revised / may change based upon holding and playing with the total codex (don't lose your minds yet folks) ...

It may all change based upon playtest and all that, but the look we get based upon a near total leak is of a codex that didn't really change in any deep-seeded way, where the units made cheaper either got worse or are still bad, where the units that were buffed are still bad and where units that were good are now worse and typically more points-intensive (i.e., hive guard, tervigon, etc).

The worst thing is it shows really poor design method, because it doesn't actually even encourage the purchase of new models. The best early look builds use primarily models that people would have already owned, even if some of them get worse in the process. That's an upside, b/c casually gaming with Tyranids won't really change or cost anything mandatory for anyone. So there's that.

**Imposter101**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Nem wrote:
The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.

So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.

How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.

Definitely overreacting.

I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.

This is almost like the Aliens: Colonial Marines situation.

The game was a turd, but the die hard fans who pre-ordered the super expensive editions of the game have to defend and polish said turd. Here it's the same thing with some people here I believe.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

Imposter101 wrote:

I made a mathematical error. The response is to create a poor straw man at the end of your post. I'd avoid that in the future.

Thanks for the attempt at being patronising, but your sky-is-falling mistake wasn't about maths alone, as anyone can see.

yes, there are problems, but people are focusing on them alone, and a clearer picture will emerge in time, as they have with other codices.

**Therion**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.

Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?

Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.

Come on. There's always someone at every tactica or other debate about competitive units and armies telling others to simply play better, and that the reason people aren't having success with some universally craptastic units is because they don't know what they are doing

Somehow to these people 40K is so deep and complicated that in the right hands every army is a GT winner, and noone can form an opinion about a unit or an army book without playing with it atleast 76 times.

**HiveFleetCollossus**

Red Terror special Rule:

“Gobble”: If the Red Horror hits with at least four of his attacks (except prehensile pincer attack) in a single combat phase, you may choose a single enemy infantry miniature, jump infantry or normal infantry in base to base contact with the Red Terror to try to engulf.

If you decide to gobble a miniature, do not resolve his four normal attacks. Instead, the chosen model must overcome one invulnerable save (if equipped) or be removed from play as a casualty. You do not have to decide beforehand if trying to swallow a model. Can not Gobble a miniature with a very big special rule or extremely bulky. If a unit doesn’t have a model he can swallow, the four attacks are resolves as per norm.

Can't see this being particularly useful as sything talons no longer allow you to re roll all to-hits. Very rarely will all four attacks hit.

**Red Corsair**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Nem wrote:
The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.

So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.

How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.

Definitely overreacting.

I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.

Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say? And without trying the new rules.

The funny thing is I am a text book pessimist. But on the other hand I guess I am too much a student to succumb to blind generalizations before testing and data gathering. Anyone who claims they don't need a single game to grasp the new codex has too little wisdom and too much ego methinks.

**NamelessBard**

Red Corsair wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.

Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?

Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.

MVB is the TO for the NOVA. Hyv3mynd posted a link to his opinions which he has adopted rather then make his own which I happen to aggree with some points, but would rather wait and play a bit before making braod generalizations.

Yes Tervigons and hiveguard got worse, but YOU would have to be foolish not have seen this coming. They were idiotically under cost before.

Imagine have two people having the same opinions! I happen to agree with 90% of what MVB wrote as well. So, I guess if I say Tervigons and hive guard got worse, I have adopted your opinion rather than make my own. Can we get a list of who said what opinion first so we can make sure to have different ones.

Hyv3mynd is a dude who's really active in the blogging and tournament scene. He's pretty knowledgeable about the game. If my opinions are confirmed by other's opinions, than that increases the likelihood that my thesis is correct. Perhaps you've heard of peer review.

**Nate668**

This is really, really disappointing. I normally try to look at the bright side of things (I don't even think the AS codex is that bad), but unless there's something significant that is being missed, this codex doesn't have a chance of being competitive. The previous codex wasn't that powerful to begin with, and in this new version, only three units have gotten strictly better (venomthropes, biovores, and mawlocs), while many other things have either not changed or have gotten significantly less powerful. Synapse is more important than ever, but every single unit that provides synapse has either been nerfed in some way or hasn't changed from a non-competitive previous incarnation. I wasn't expecting this to be some super-powerful codex, but I'm not even sure that this butchered mess is even worth playing at all. I play for fun, but losing all the time isn't much fun.

**IcedAnimals**

@ Therion. Speaking of the imperial guard book. How many tanks do they have in the current book that are actually missing models right now? Because unless they get new ones I think the guard book might end up losing a lot of options.

I expect the guard book to change about as much as this current Nid book just did. More of a side grade, some serious WTFs but since guard are a shooting based army they will come out of it just fine.

I wont be playing nids competitively. I never did before and this book isn't going to make me start. But I will definitely still play them as a for fun army every now and then. especially since I just bought the heirophant. The ability to use it as a 20 man transport that is insanely hard to stop from reaching your lines really helps out in a nid army. Most of our super heavies are pretty awesome honestly. And since fortifications are worthless(to us) you might as well take what you can get.

**Eyjio**

Red Corsair wrote:
They were idiotically under cost before.

Were they? Have you seen many nid armies around? MVB is pretty much the only guy I can name who was even using nids a lot in 6e, and if he's given up, that's a pretty terrible sign. If these units were so good, don't you think nids would have become a bit more ubiquitous? At the end of the day, T6 3+ with whatever just isn't very hard to kill. Compare the Tervigon to the Riptide. The Riptide is faster, more durable, has much better shooting, has far better options, can be taken as an ally for multiple armies and can be buffed astronomically. Tervigons are kinda tough MCs which pass out upgrades to one specific unit, and also produces 3D6 not-quite-as-good-as-a-GEQ per turn (with a ~45% chance to stop doing so every turn). They're good, sure, but nids trade an awful lot to have that, and have no other way to hide any form of troops, nor go above 6 troops slots, nor ally to get amazing psychic powers. They have to stay alive of course to ensure the little GEQ didn't evaporate to any old shooting. Without Biomancy, specifically Iron Arm AND with no guaranteed catalyst AND not handing out biomorphs AND a point increase AND more termagants needed to make them troops, they're totally crippled. There's nerfing something people THINK is too good, then there's beating it so hard it's unplayable. Hell, if they'd remained 160 points I think people would argue it's not even worth bothering.

As for Hive Guard, they've never been undercosted. An absolute necessity in 5e as the only long ranged AT, but they're in a crowded slot, cost a good chunk and have limited brood sizes. Nothing undercosted at all; again, this is worse without allies, as they have no way to boost the slots.

Tervigons may have once been undercosted, but they're nowhere close in the current meta. The nerf to them and the loss of Biomancy have pretty much single handedly rendered this book trash, to show you how much of an impact it's had. If you think the let down of 5e nids was bad, wait until 2 weeks after the release of this bombshell.

**H.B.M.C.**

Therion wrote:
Come on. There's always someone at every tactica or other debate about competitive units and armies telling others to simply play better, and that the reason people aren't having success with some universally craptastic units is because they don't know what they are doing Somehow to these people 40K is so deep and complicated that in the right hands every army is a GT winner, and noone can form an opinion about a unit or an army book without playing with it atleast 76 times.

I miss the days when someone would respond to a bad list or Codex with "Use Tactics!", as if that meant anything at all.