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davethepak wrote:


I like, this and it will be fun trying to get it to work. I might be playing a test game tonight or tomorrow (my flags is releaseing the book tonight, but my friends and I have already read almost all of it). My only concern is the ability to keep the venomthrope alive. Without FNP or inserting a prime into the mix...but if the prime is in there....I can't get out of synapse to GTF....hmmmm.....this will be sticky are there are eldar players and tau players in my area....(once I can get into CC with the t3 guys, they are toast).

Ideas?

Don't run primes for more wounds, just run more Veno's, Primes are super expensive and Elite slots are far more open now, and even if you need other Elites you can take Venom's in 3 man squads. At 45 points each with 3 attacks on the charge having +2 poison, re-rollable wounds against T4 or lower, they are never going to be useless. They can GtG for the same +2 cover save as the other guys, although they might just miss out on getting back up the next turn which doesn't necessarily matter if they have done their job, but with careful positioning I'm sure you could easily manage it, the 6" from dominion is a lot of leeway plus placing the Tervigon's a bit back diagonally instead of Horizontally across from the Stealers should pretty much guarantee it.

If you want you could also run individual Veno's and block LoS with Fex's or Tyrannos as well though depending on your points, the Gants or whatever you choose to use to screen your Genestealers would probably lose the 5+ Venomthrope save though.

 jifel wrote:
"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover. Solution? Simple. Put it in a Bastion. Tau are bad against Bastions, sorry. So are Eldar. Killed it with another army? Great, its in the ruins with a 2++ cover.

Actually C:SM lists have dual Thunder Fire Cannons (which have a cover ignoring ammo) and possibly Sternguard (which have a cover ignoring ammo) if they are running steel rain. C:CSM have 2-3 Helldrakes. Definately not as common as Tau (ML, Buff Commander, SMS) and Eldar (SS) but still those weapons are quite potent.

The bastion is creative thinking Jiffel . Of course if you are introducing Stronghold rules into your games (aka that emergency exit thing) that could provide a slippery slope for introducing D Weapons, and Super Forts into your meta...and then Escalation (More D-Weapons). For now, my local meta is just ignoring both books.

What kind of IB do venomthropes have?

rothrich wrote:
In what way is the book bad? have you read the book yet? In my opinion a bad bit of fiction is one that fails to entertain the reader.

Except that this is not a novel, this is also a rulebook to play a game. Is it too much to ask that those rules are balanced with the rules provided other armies so that no player is shafted before the game starts.

It would be great to get the first post updated with a summary. I can't find information buried in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, 1000 posts!

 SHUPPET wrote:
Don't run primes for more wounds, just run more Veno's, Primes are super expensive and Elite slots are far more open now, and even if you need other Elites you can take Venom's in 3 man squads.

To expand on SHUPPET's point here:

3 Venomthropes: 135pts
1 Tyranid Prime: 125 pts

 Battlesong wrote:

rothrich wrote:
In what way is the book bad? have you read the book yet? In my opinion a bad bit of fiction is one that fails to entertain the reader.

Except that this is not a novel, this is also a rulebook to play a game. Is it too much to ask that those rules are balanced with the rules provided other armies so that no player is shafted before the game starts.

Apparently it is to some, yes. GW doesn't seem to care much for it either.

What's to summarize? Wailing, Lamentation, and Gnashing of Teeth. There, i've summarized.

 wyomingfox wrote:

 jifel wrote:
"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover. Solution? Simple. Put it in a Bastion. Tau are bad against Bastions, sorry. So are Eldar. Killed it with another army? Great, its in the ruins with a 2++ cover.

Actually C:SM lists have dual Thunder Fire Cannons (which have a cover ignoring ammo) and possibly Sternguard (which have a cover ignoring ammo) if they are running steel rain. C:CSM have 2-3 Helldrakes. Definately not as common as Tau (ML, Buff Commander, SMS) and Eldar (SS) but still those weapons are quite potent.

The bastion is creative thinking Jiffel . Of course if you are introducing Stronghold rules into your games (aka that emergency exit thing) that could provide a slippery slope for introducing D Weapons, and Super Forts into your meta...and then Escalation (More D-Weapons). For now, my local meta is just ignoring both books.

Good point on thunder fires. I'm not too scared of turkeys though, just because their Flamers aren't great for multiwound models, and we don't care about gants. My local groups have both been accepting Stronghold assault, but with no fortification networks or heavy forts. It's worked out just fine so far.

 AesSedai wrote:
It would be great to get the first post updated with a summary. I can't find information buried in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, 1000 posts!

I have this summary on page 131, but that is just comparing existing old units to their new iteration, and doesn't include the new stuff. It is also a bit incomplete, as I don't have an actual codex in front of me and have been going off spanish scans. (I don't speak spanish...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:

 jifel wrote:
"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover. Solution? Simple. Put it in a Bastion. Tau are bad against Bastions, sorry. So are Eldar. Killed it with another army? Great, its in the ruins with a 2++ cover.

Actually C:SM lists have dual Thunder Fire Cannons (which have a cover ignoring ammo) and possibly Sternguard (which have a cover ignoring ammo) if they are running steel rain. C:CSM have 2-3 Helldrakes. Definately not as common as Tau (ML, Buff Commander, SMS) and Eldar (SS) but still those weapons are quite potent.

The bastion is creative thinking Jiffel . Of course if you are introducing Stronghold rules into your games (aka that emergency exit thing) that could provide a slippery slope for introducing D Weapons, and Super Forts into your meta...and then Escalation (More D-Weapons). For now, my local meta is just ignoring both books.

Good point on thunder fires. I'm not too scared of turkeys though, just because their Flamers aren't great for multiwound models, and we don't care about gants. My local groups have both been accepting Stronghold assault, but with no fortification networks or heavy forts. It's worked out just fine so far.

Turkeys can still hit multiple Venomthropes with a single shot, which wounds 2+ and ignores all saves you have. Sure, you're only losing 1 model at a time, but that's a decent portion of your shrouding bubble that is dying every time. For warriors I can see your point, but Venomthropes only have 2 wounds and aren't innately Fearless; losing a single model will force a panic check if outside Synapse.

streamdragon wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
It would be great to get the first post updated with a summary. I can't find information buried in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, 1000 posts!

I have this summary on page 131, but that is just comparing existing old units to their new iteration, and doesn't include the new stuff. It is also a bit incomplete, as I don't have an actual codex in front of me and have been going off spanish scans. (I don't speak spanish...)

Perfect, that's what I was looking for, thanks.

Hey, can lictors be purchased as broods?

I get to pick up my codex today after work, so excited!

I think people are overreacting to the Tervigon changes. I wholeheartedly agree that tervigon spam is now dead, and I feel sorry for the people that are stuck with 4 tervigons that will never all be fielded at the same time again. However, tervigons were easily the best troops choice in the game in the last codex, and if you focus on what they still do rather than what they lost, they are still a valuable addition to a list.

The main complaints that I have seen are that they no longer provide AG/TS to termagants and that their gant-killing-upon-death radius has doubled. However, they're still a T6 W6 monstrous creature that spawns troop squads, brings a psychic power, and provides synapse/SitW from a huge base. If they die, they will kill an average of 5 termagants from each squad within 12 inches, which really doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

Yes they went up in points. They should have. Yes they no longer grant AG/TS to termagants (Though they still grant counter-attack). Don't give them AG/TS.. Yes they can only take tyranid powers. The tyranid powers are pretty good. Yes their explosion radius is 12 inches. You're still only losing cheap gaunts - probably less than you spawned throughout the game, and probably not enough to wipe out any of your squads.

These changes have toned them down quite a bit, but they are far from useless.

 AesSedai wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
It would be great to get the first post updated with a summary. I can't find information buried in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, 1000 posts!

I have this summary on page 131, but that is just comparing existing old units to their new iteration, and doesn't include the new stuff. It is also a bit incomplete, as I don't have an actual codex in front of me and have been going off spanish scans. (I don't speak spanish...)

Perfect, that's what I was looking for, thanks.

Hey, can lictors be purchased as broods?

1-3 as before.

 streamdragon wrote:

Turkeys can still hit multiple Venomthropes with a single shot, which wounds 2+ and ignores all saves you have. Sure, you're only losing 1 model at a time, but that's a decent portion of your shrouding bubble that is dying every time. For warriors I can see your point, but Venomthropes only have 2 wounds and aren't innately Fearless; losing a single model will force a panic check if outside Synapse.

Okay. So a turkey can potentially kill one venomthrope per turn. Good thing venomthropes can be taken in units of 3, their only purpose is to help other things get across the board, and turkeys can't enter play until turn 2 at the earliest. There are obviously other things that pose a real threat to the effectiveness of venomthropes, but turkeys are not one of them.

Can someone tell what Tentaclid missles "seeking" rule does?
I'm liking the sound of the Crone being that they have Haywire missles. Just don't bring them up board until they're needed...

And i presume Impaler Cannon's "Homing" just means, doesn't require line of sight?

Thanks.

[edit]

Not long to go! Yet we already know everything anyway


[double edit]

Ninja'd

Does anyone have the exact rules for the Crone's missiles? Can they hit Flyer's while it is in Jump Infantry mode?

Nate668 wrote:
I think people are overreacting to the Tervigon changes. I wholeheartedly agree that tervigon spam is now dead, and I feel sorry for the people that are stuck with 4 tervigons that will never all be fielded at the same time again. However, tervigons were easily the best troops choice in the game in the last codex, and if you focus on what they still do rather than what they lost, they are still a valuable addition to a list.

The main complaints that I have seen are that they no longer provide AG/TS to termagants and that their gant-killing-upon-death radius has doubled. However, they're still a T6 W6 monstrous creature that spawns troop squads, brings a psychic power, and provides synapse/SitW from a huge base. If they die, they will kill an average of 5 termagants from each squad within 12 inches, which really doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

Yes they went up in points. They should have. Yes they no longer grant AG/TS to termagants (Though they still grant counter-attack). Don't give them AG/TS.. Yes they can only take tyranid powers. The tyranid powers are pretty good. Yes their explosion radius is 12 inches. You're still only losing cheap gaunts - probably less than you spawned throughout the game, and probably not enough to wipe out any of your squads.

These changes have toned them down quite a bit, but they are far from useless.

Couple small points:
1. The Gaunt Tax went from 50 points per Terv to 120. 70 extra points, plus the extra 35 points for a base Tervigon.
2. They can't take Tyranid powers. They now get a single random power.
3. Their single set of scything talons is now meaningless.
4. No longer providing TS/AG to Terms means the terms they do spawn are FAR weaker than they used to be, and the cost per model for those biomorphs doubled for Termagants. Tervigons used to be a force multiplier, now they are just another Synapse creature; albeit one that kills Termagants under its synapse when it dies.

So while Tervigons are still a fairly meaty MC Synpase creature, the drawbacks and increased cost of actually fielding one moved them from "why wouldn't I field this?" to "do I want this piece of crap, or that piece of crap over there?".

Nate668 wrote:
Okay. So a turkey can potentially kill one venomthrope per turn. Good thing venomthropes can be taken in units of 3, their only purpose is to help other things get across the board, and turkeys can't enter play until turn 2 at the earliest. There are obviously other things that pose a real threat to the effectiveness of venomthropes, but turkeys are not one of them.

Technically it could kill more with a Vector strike, but I would say that Turkeys are still a threat to the effectiveness of Venomthropse not necessarily by killing them (which as we both acknowledge they will do slowly), but also because they ignore what the Venomthrope is there for in the first place. You're spending 45PPM for mobile cover (and let's face it that's all Venomthropes do; they have no guns and suck in CC) that is being ignored by the Turkey. Who cares if the Venomthrope itself lives, when the genestealer brood they were Shrouding is suddenly wiped from the table by a Baleflamer?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Does anyone have the exact rules for the Crone's missiles? Can they hit Flyer's while it is in Jump Infantry mode?

Re-roll to hit vs Flying MC's and Flyers. S5 ap5 Haywire, 1 use only, 36" range. They come with 4.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Does anyone have the exact rules for the Crone's missiles? Can they hit Flyer's while it is in Jump Infantry mode?

There's no Skyfire on the profile, so it can probably only be used while Swooping (unless you want to snap shot them).

 xttz wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Does anyone have the exact rules for the Crone's missiles? Can they hit Flyer's while it is in Jump Infantry mode?

There's no Skyfire on the profile, so it can probably only be used while Swooping (unless you want to snap shot them).

Can't FMCs choose whether to have Skyfire every turn naturally? Or am I thinking of Flyers in general?

 streamdragon wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Does anyone have the exact rules for the Crone's missiles? Can they hit Flyer's while it is in Jump Infantry mode?

There's no Skyfire on the profile, so it can probably only be used while Swooping (unless you want to snap shot them).

Can't FMCs choose whether to have Skyfire every turn naturally? Or am I thinking of Flyers in general?

Only when Swooping, as per the BRB FAQ.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Does anyone have the exact rules for the Crone's missiles? Can they hit Flyer's while it is in Jump Infantry mode?

There's no Skyfire on the profile, so it can probably only be used while Swooping (unless you want to snap shot them).

Can't FMCs choose whether to have Skyfire every turn naturally? Or am I thinking of Flyers in general?

Only when Swooping, as per the BRB FAQ.

Ah, that would make sense. It's been a bit since I actually fielded an FMC. More used to the fattie C:CSM Nurgle DP who never shoots anyway.

The only good thing about this codex is that it was so bad that I managed to notice before I paid for it.

As it is you are going to have to ask opponents to field bad armies against you. Or just play against people who field bad armies. I will certainly be very easy with my other armies vs nids, but you can't expect people to do that if it's any sort of competitive environment or anything rides on the win, because they'll always know they lost because they picked a gak army.

This nid dex will be great for casual games though when you're messing about picking silly lists or not taking a team game seriously. Killing a tervigon and watching the termagants explode and the hormagaunts then eat each other will be dramatic and good chat for a beer & pretzels type game, but you really will need sympathetic opponents because going into every game expecting to lose makes the entire exercise not fun, even if you don't care about winning (like me). It takes out the excitement, because the question isn't "Who will lose this time?", it is "How will the nids lose this time?"

Wow, man, guess I got under your skin with this, huh. Normally, I don't go back this many pages and comment, but I mus admit all the red got my attention.....and was kinda annoying tbh. I have numbered my responses and replied so this doesn't get too confusing.

 brassangel wrote:

Battlesong wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?

Some combination of:

1. Warriors/Hormagaunts/Genestealers being playable We don't know for certain they aren't yet. We haven't used them in combination with the rest of the book to find out.

2. Flyers that are not T5 4+ Armor They are still FMC's and thus ultra-annoying to kill. But CLEARLY these will be on the table all by themselves for opponents to focus on, right?

3. Some type of long range shooting Tyranids have never been good at this and never will be. Nor should they be. Their job is to close on the enemy. A muscle spasm isn't going to launch something as far as a mechanical/hydraulic machine. But ignoring our incredible firepower at 24", plus the HVC, the now reasonably priced Tyrannofex and Biovore options, I could see why you would make such a comment.

4. 2+ armor SOMEWHERE They are flesh and bone; there's no reason to have 2+ anywhere. Besides, the Tyrannofex does have it, and loads of the army can be under Catalyst bubbles.

5. Continued access the BRB psychic powers (and being blindsided by the loss of those was possibly the worst part of this) The previous codex didn't have it either. GW added these in the BRB. Considering that this was the only thing making the previous piece of crap playable, I'd hardly call it a loss. I would rather a codex is self-sufficient (which we are unsure of yet) than rely on a BRB power hijacked to give a couple of monsters some life. Besides, some of the new combos people are discussing will make guys like the Swarmlord just as hard to kill as ever, and arguably stronger in combat.

6. Not having Scything Talons become LESS useful than they are now So they went from re-rolling 1's to more often than not adding +1A. Yeah, not really a big deal. People weren't exactly buying these as upgrades on anything before, so that's a wash.

7. Some type of fix to the Pyrovore He's cheaper, tougher, fightier, and can hurt vehicles. While not a WAAC model, he's 100% better than he was. Of course, anyone's definition of "fix" is probably relative on the internet.

I could go on, but this should give you a general idea. No, it's still just a bunch of "sky is falling" whining that happens with the release of EVERY NEW CODEX EVER...

1. We have seen EVERYTHING, so much so, that I am not even really excited to have my 'dex delivered at this point. Out of everything you have seen, what super tech are we missing? Their statlines didn't change; their rules didn't change; synapse didn't change, so therefore any synergy bonuses are non-existent; please tell me what super-secret tech we could possibly be missing?

2. Quad-gun, case closed. These are so choice for that, it's not funny. No, they will not be on the table by themselves, but for anything with Skyfire, they are such juicy targets., and once grounded will be easy kill points. I'm sorry that I feel that these units should be more than diversionary

3. The Tyrannofex is mediocre at range and the biovore is only good for troop sniping in what is now a heavily contested FOC slot. In a game that is now totally skewed to shooting, shooting, and more shooting, to say we don't need this - or shouldn't be good at it is kinda silly. Sometimes fluff needs to take a back seat to crunch to create some competitive balance. This is a CC army that is now in a game where CC is next to useless

4. If you roll Catalyst. And we have swords that are made of bone that act like power weapons, but the Hive Mind can't make a thick hide for huge creatures that might mimic heavy ceramite?

5. If the codex powers were suitable replacements for the BRB powers, I would agree with you, but this table is an utter crapshoot at best.

6. +1A for things that bite the bullet and drop shooting weapons to add a second CC weapon. In a game dedicated to shooting. In an army with almost no way to get those CC monsters where they're going quickly. And for things like the horm, this is a strict nerf

7. The Pyrovore is not only not WAAC, it is still utterly useless, even with the upgrades to his stats, which really do nothing, the loss of spores makes it even worse than the last dex. I recognize that not every unit can be great, but this, again, will be a unit that never sees the tabletop.

So they took away our ability to mix and match weapon abilities to bring us in line with the rest of the game. But do we get the benifits as well? I'm curious to see if we will get perry with boneswords...

Backlash wrote:
So they took away our ability to mix and match weapon abilities to bring us in line with the rest of the game. But do we get the benifits as well? I'm curious to see if we will get perry with boneswords...

No, we won't.

No big surprise for anyone, I'm sure, but Nidmageddon for Rumor Mongers continues.

Larry Vela and Natfka are putting up some pretty impressive numbers of FALSEs for this release. Larry, in particular, bet a lot on this one and lost big.

That guy who said he talked to someone over Vassal (Tyren) was obviously full of it as well. I think he's at 31 False and 5 True right now.

Nate668 wrote:
I think people are overreacting to the Tervigon changes. I wholeheartedly agree that tervigon spam is now dead, and I feel sorry for the people that are stuck with 4 tervigons that will never all be fielded at the same time again. However, tervigons were easily the best troops choice in the game in the last codex, and if you focus on what they still do rather than what they lost, they are still a valuable addition to a list.

The main complaints that I have seen are that they no longer provide AG/TS to termagants and that their gant-killing-upon-death radius has doubled. However, they're still a T6 W6 monstrous creature that spawns troop squads, brings a psychic power, and provides synapse/SitW from a huge base. If they die, they will kill an average of 5 termagants from each squad within 12 inches, which really doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

Yes they went up in points. They should have. Yes they no longer grant AG/TS to termagants (Though they still grant counter-attack). Don't give them AG/TS.. Yes they can only take tyranid powers. The tyranid powers are pretty good. Yes their explosion radius is 12 inches. You're still only losing cheap gaunts - probably less than you spawned throughout the game, and probably not enough to wipe out any of your squads.

These changes have toned them down quite a bit, but they are far from useless.

One little thing to think about when it comes to Tervigons is that their synaptic feedback doesn't expand when their synapse does. So a Tervigon with Dominion could keep the Termagants in line as long as they are in the 12.1"-16" range and won't kill any if they die.

I hope the rumors about a second wave pan out. These are nice sculpts and I would like to see plastic zoans and venos.

So Broodlord can swap his power out right like the Tyrant?

If so what happens if he goes for the primaris Dominion and casts it?

I'm only asking because he's the only non-synapse psyker in the book. Explicit text is "The Psyker has +6" Synapse range". Does this turn him into a Synapse creature with 6" Synapse range every turn?