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To be fair, they don't need to kill 120-models. They just need to kill your synapse ones (that you have to bring within range of their guns if you want your foot-pounding 'gaunts to remain fearless). There's a 50% chance per turn that the 120 models will proceed to take care of itself.

I am actually looking forward to playing a homragaunt horde though. Maybe Venomthrope support can keep my synapse beasties alive long enough for the gaunts to get into assault.

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

I think maybe I play with more terrain that BLOS then most. Hiding a prime doesn't seem that difficult to me synapse only matter until the horms make assault which is turn 2 if you do it right.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

Yeah, they can be, but that means they're S3. In assaults, you'll kill nothing. Out of assaults, you'll die like flies. Tau in particular can easily kill 120+ gants a turn, more if they're a gun line. The old codex succeeded with lots of units, not lots of models. Sure, you COULD fire at the unit of 6 gants, or the unit of 7 or the unit of 10, but you can't wipe them all with one squad. Now, you can, pretty easily. Devilgants need to get close, so without pods, your non-assaulty troops are walking up the board, hoping their synapse doesn't die and then firing essentially a lot of BS3 bolters. It's just not that awesome for 8ppm. Primes would have been awesome with the new mixed units but now they're 125 points with an actual nerf. Who knows why, but that means this blob will be MORE expensive than doing the same in 5e, but now you can't gain stuff from Tervigons and you don't have good delivery. Believe me, I've been trying my best to make this book work. I just don't see how to live a gun line AND actually do damage when you get there. Heck, synapse is a huge issue in this new book, far more than people think - without Tervigons, there's nothing really capable of pushing up other than primes which are way more expensive.

I share your concern, but lets look at the hormegaunt now. its nly +1PPM over the termigant and is very fast. By nerfing the tervigon GW basically shifted us in that direction. 30 stock horms is only 150pts and with fleet and bounding leap will move an average of ~13". I don't see tau killing 120+ models in a single turn unless your playing MASSIVE games.

Sure, they're fast, but that's it. They hit combat and... they hit combat. Without poison, they do almost nothing to anyone. Heck, at 3 it takes 18 attacks to causee one MEQ wound. Against anything tougher, you may as well not bother. Great if you just want to tarpit, but Gargoyles are strictly better for that. In fact, gargoyles are just better than Hormagaunts period, even with the nerf to blinding venom. Gargoyles are, IMO, even more of an auto-include now. Maybe there's something to be said for poison hormagaunts runnign with poison gargoyles, but that's a heck of an investment into something which is fundamentally worse than it was in 5e.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Right now I am looking at 90pt warrior broods to babysit my backfield objective and babysit my 3 biovores.

Genestealers were the other unit I was looking at but they would do nothing but look threatening. So for under 100pts i have synapse and objective holding covered.

I worry that all the points cost reductions which seem to be one of the only silver linings are going to get eaten up in ideas like this.

rigeld2 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

I sympathize man. But can you really be this surprised/disappointed with GW at this point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Right now I am looking at 90pt warrior broods to babysit my backfield objective and babysit my 3 biovores.

Genestealers were the other unit I was looking at but they would do nothing but look threatening. So for under 100pts i have synapse and objective holding covered.

I worry that all the points cost reductions which seem to be one of the only silver linings are going to get eaten up in ideas like this.

I was too but what objectives are people required to camp backfield? Most missions you can through them up field which was always a choice move for bugs. To methere is no incentive to keep them back anymore, is that a bad thing? I don't know yet.

 Red Corsair wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

I sympathize man. But can you really be this surprised/disappointed with GW at this point?

Yes, I can absolutely be disappointed in the product they're putting out. Especially since they could very likely earn significantly more money by writing better rules.

Double post

I think its worth mentioning that marines are getting a Nid hunter dataslate with this release too. Cause you know, they need it...

rothrich wrote:
I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players.

Please don't casually dismiss legitimate criticism of objectively bad units as "competitive" players "whining". That's dishonest, insulting and flat out wrong.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Reading the past few pages of this thread reminds me of IMDB's sub-communities for movies that bomb.

Stage 1: Initial announcement of product. Be jaded.

Stage 2: Details begin to trickle in. Get cautiously optimistic.

Stage 3: Details start flowing. Red-flags show up for those still jaded, the optimistic go into wise-man mode and lash out against the jaded for making assumptions without knowing all the details.

Stage 4: A final bombshell of information is released, for movies this is the various trailers. All gak hits the fan. Many of the optimistic give in to their grief but the most stalwart insist that we still don't know all the details yet. Maybe the trailer was just bad. The marketing team is bad. The film could still be good! The jaded are bitterly laughing their asses off.

Stage 5. Community embraces the horror. The blame-game begins for the crestfallen, while the most stalwart, those who simply refuse to be phased, spend months insisting that the movie wasn't that bad; defending its flaws and attacking other members of the community (for 40K, this will be the group of people who insist for months that the community needs more time to judge the codex after its release. "We don't know all the best builds yet! Give it some time! There's still strong combos that we might have missed! Dataslates and expansion!" Just because there's no 2++ invuln cheese doesn't mean its bad!)

We're at stage 4 ITT.

Anyway, some of the flashbacks in here are disingenuous. I remember the rumor thread for Eldar, and I remember the rumor thread for Chaos Space Marines. By the time it was getting close to release time, hype for the Eldar codex was pretty positive because the rumors for it were very positive. Hype for the CSM codex was low because most rumors pointed to it being 4E CSM with Heldrakes.

Have an exalt for this incredibly accurate truth.

I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

The Exocrine is the only thing that bugs me the most because the range completely contradicts the fluff that GW been shoving.

For example their most recent post on the site just makes me laugh:
"The Exocrine, on the other hand, is a gun-beast – the Tyranid equivalent of human artillery. It’s widely believed by Imperial scholars that the Exocrine is little more than a slave to the massive, six-barrelled bio-plasmic cannon that it carries into battle, the gun apparently showing more intelligence than its symbiotic host. In battle, these huge beasts are used to pound the enemy from afar, though, like other Monstrous Creatures, the Exocrine can be just as usefully employed trampling the enemy to death beneath its huge forelimbs and massive, chitinous bulk."

or is it just me?

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

From the people (like Brassangel) who think that everyone who plays at tournaments is automatically a WAAC player.

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

Spite.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

You're about to get your head torn off.

Just fair warning...

I do understand a lot of the pessimism, and I admit I'm disappointed, but we'll see. I think it'll be a bland, boring book with one to two lists that a strong player can use to win many games. Exactly like the last book, with a new monobuild. However, I think that this book will have perhaps a little extra variety. I see no single "you must take this" unit like an old Tervi (or Riptide) but I see more units of "these are pretty good, try them out" then we have before. It isn't the end, just not a very thrilling beginning.

Because wanting balanced rules does not mean you hate fun? Seriously that has to be the most asinine reasoning I've heard in a long time.

When people ask me why it's not okay for people to enjoy a codex regardless of its balance, I ask them why its not okay to want to win games.

rothrich wrote:


Firstly, Why are they the idiots if they are having fun? I think that the idiot would be the one who spends thousands of dollars on a game that is no fun at all.
Second, I do not get pick up games because I think that pick up games are terrible and no fun. This is because...
A. Pick up games tend to be run from the games that your roll out of the book which are terrible. They have no imagination and are poorly balanced.
B. I personally have had bad experience with pick up games. They just always seem so awkward and weird.
C. I play with friends that I have had forever and really have no need to play pick up games
Third, Why should anyone feel shafted from purchasing GW products? They bought fine models for a nice friendly game of 40k!

I think B. is telling us about why you think the way you do. Random social interactions are bad and weird. No wonder you don't like tournaments.

And C. You play the same bunch of dudes ad nauseam and telling us that playing the same armies over and over isn't fun.

Because winning is for losers!



Sorry, that's a reference to the old "Dakka Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia".

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

This post shows to me why you dont understand. The power of the Tervigon has nothing to do with how many gants it can spawn in a game. It has to do with protecting a two Troops, itself and the gant brood it hasnt spawned yet. It takes literally no effort for an opponent to wipe out a Gant brood. A single Wave Serpent can do that in 1 turn. Once the troops die, you lose. Simply multiplying those Broods to 30 members only minorly helps. The Tervigon allowed you to spawn near the end of the game, dropping troops on objectives and keeping them alive to score. The Terv also had 3 chances to roll that key Psy Power to save itself. Typically either Iron Arm or Endurance. Now you have 1 chance to roll 1 power to save your expensive Troop.

Your big gant broods will have no fun with rapid firing enemies with AP or Blasts when you cluster around your venomthrope for cover. Your "boost" is that things got cheaper. What are you going to buy in that 1500 point list to swing the game for what 225points ?


You and Brassangel are defending the codex like your the writers trying to justify their crap work. Its a crap codex. CSM at least had one model that was so good that it compensated. Nids got nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

Well, they've never advertised a product they were making as intended for a competitive environment. They haven't received nearly the demand to be a mostly competitive-minded product (as their sales go up despite their beer-and-pretzels approach).

Would it be absolutely "horrible and unthinkable" for them to deliver the very product they advertise?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

rothrich wrote:
I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players.

Please don't casually dismiss legitimate criticism of objectively bad units as "competitive" players "whining". That's dishonest, insulting and flat out wrong.

Please don't consider everything that doesn't automatically hate every new product that comes out (until they are proven wrong every single time after some play) as a casual dismissal. It's dishonest, insulting, and flat out wrong. In other words, it's the HBMC of posts.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

From the people (like Brassangel) who think that everyone who plays at tournaments is automatically a WAAC player.

I play tournaments, and I like to win. I found ways to win, in 5th edition, with our previous piece of crap (before the 6th edition rulebook gave us the Biomancy crutch everyone seems to be panicking to have to play without - thinking of something new? Oh noes!!!). This book will be far easier to win with, and I'll have more options.

I've just seen this same pattern of whining --er, sorry, "legitimate concerns" and total lack of understanding of an army or it's units before extensive playtesting --er, "objectively bad units" so many times that I know how it will end up: the angry mob will be wrong, yet again. Does that mean it will be as rampant as say, Tau or Eldar? Maybe not, but those armies aren't nearly as difficult to collect either (i.e. not swarms).

Seeing as how the people with the type of voice you're bellowing have batted 0.000 thus far, I'm not too concerned with finding a variety of ways to win with this book instead of hoping for my one way to win with the previous one.

In summary, the "legitimate concerns" have been nothing more than "I don't see anything that's obviously busted or abusable, and I'm smart enough to know without playing anything...just like with the Riptide, the Helldrake, and the Wave Serpent. Oh wait...I mean...guys like Brassangel are stupid for disagreeing with us!"

The Tyranids version of those types of units will emerge. Every book has them.

I love how angry you guys get. You take everything so personal, get overly emotional about a hobby, and can't admit that you just don't have a clue how this will turn out. I at least admit I'm not sure how it will go (in terms of the fate of Tyranids, not the rumor-monger whining (which is obvious)), but lean optimistically in one direction based on the rumor cycle history.

evilsponge wrote:Because wanting balanced rules does not mean you hate fun? Seriously that has to be the most asinine reasoning I've heard in a long time.

Ravenous D wrote:

rothrich wrote:


Firstly, Why are they the idiots if they are having fun? I think that the idiot would be the one who spends thousands of dollars on a game that is no fun at all.
Second, I do not get pick up games because I think that pick up games are terrible and no fun. This is because...
A. Pick up games tend to be run from the games that your roll out of the book which are terrible. They have no imagination and are poorly balanced.
B. I personally have had bad experience with pick up games. They just always seem so awkward and weird.
C. I play with friends that I have had forever and really have no need to play pick up games
Third, Why should anyone feel shafted from purchasing GW products? They bought fine models for a nice friendly game of 40k!

I think B. is telling us about why you think the way you do. Random social interactions are bad and weird. No wonder you don't like tournaments.

And C. You play the same bunch of dudes ad nauseam and telling us that playing the same armies over and over isn't fun.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Because winning is for losers!



Sorry, that's a reference to the old "Dakka Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia".

There are only one or two units in all games that when spammed break the game's ballance

Actually I am a very social person. I get along with everyone I meet. I work in a customer service industry and I ensure that every customer I talk to leaves me with a smile on their face and in a better mood than when they came in.

ad nauseam? really dude? is it fun to just post up random Latin words that I have to google? But whatever we have not played one another to the point of nausea, and who says that we always play the same armies? I have played as Orks, SW, GK, Crons, eldar and guard actually I can honestly say that between the five of us we have played about every single army over several editions of the game. If you get board of an army you can just trade out. There are tons of WAAC players on the internet happy to sell you their unfinished army because the new army with the more cheesetastic rules just came out and plenty of players happy to buy your army because you took the time to paint it halfway decent. Through good trading I can usually even swap one of my armies for a different one without spending a penny.

"It is not if you win or loose but how you play the game." -Amerurica

Re: the comments about not being able to leave small squads of gants babysitting backfield objectives out of synapse anymore.

I think i figured it out.

GW decided that mindless bugs guarding "objectives" (because in their mind why would mindless bugs care about objectives when all they want is more biomass" wasn't cinematic, so they designed the rules to punish players who didn't play cinematically.

Gotta forge that narrative.

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

Jervis Johnson. He's managed to convince a vast swathe of the player base that shoddy rules writing and atrocious internal and external balance are features, not bugs.

What's with this whole...oh yeah kill synapse and the army folds mentality?

Synapse creatures are by nature hard to kill...and you have to do it all on turn one...venomthropes and all...highly unlikely.

End of turn 1 a unit of hormagaunts can be 27" up the board leaving only the back 6-7" of the board safe on turn 2.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

Jervis Johnson. He's managed to convince a vast swathe of the player base that shoddy rules writing and atrocious internal and external balance are features, not bugs.

Bugs. I get it.

They are definitely not bugs.

I think its obvious whats going on in here right now. All our synapse got taken out, so now all our feeders are raging and trying to bite anyone that walks to close, the lurkers are looking on or running away, and our hunters are hiding and taking the occasional pot shot to lighten the mood.

rothrich wrote:

In what way is the book bad? have you read the book yet? In my opinion a bad bit of fiction is one that fails to entertain the reader.

This. This is why I am not happy. I do not think it is entertaining. When I started a few decades ago (I have genestealers old enough to drink) and Nids first came out it was all about the rushing across the table with claws and teeth and promises of death if I managed to actually get across the table.

Now I am not sure what Nids are anymore. The CC units don't have that "pow" in your face type of feel anymore. I'm not saying everything should be stealer shock, but what started with a Zulu Dawn type of feel quickly turned into some sort of resource management simulator.

I LOVED when fortifications were introduced in 6th. It gives me that barricaded humans in a desprite bid for survival vibe I love.

So I'll try it and see what I think. Hoping I like the vibe still.