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Shingen wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

Yes lets remove possible playstyles and tactics, because you don't like / don't use them. Dumbing down ftw.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Think of the narratives!! That's where the fun is.

I'm getting my forge ready! My narrative forge that is!

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaven forbid, that this may be the case once again.

*edit for SP

The most hilarious thing, to me, is that instead of making Warriors really good in order to sell more, they just nerfed Tervigons so hard that Warriors seem like a viable option in comparison.

I imagine the conversation went something like this,

"We need to really push this new warrior kit"
"Well, with the Tervigon being such a hot item, I imagine we'll really have to buff them to make them desirable"
"Are you crazy? Buff Warriors? They're overpowered beyond belief as it is!"
"Yeah, I suppose you're right. So what do we do?"
"Clearly we've got to make sure no other troop choice is any better than Warriors. I mean, we've gotta show the other codices SOME mercy"

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaen forbid, that this may be the case once again.

Well, I wish what you just said was true, but I cannot see how. I can't make a list even on par with my 5e ones, let alone good enough to not need Tervigons. Troops have basically become more expensive as they need poison now, hormagaunts have... I mean, what's even the point of them any more? They're strictly worse than termagants other than the run which isn't even good alone. Heck, I can take some 4e lists and THEY'RE more expensive. It's just a mess.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaen forbid, that this may be the case once again.

Well… no. Not really. Cast your mind back…

*harp noises*

In 3rd Tyranids didn't work because of "Shoot the Big Ones", which really just meant "Shoot the Good Ones", because you'd just kill the Carnifexes before they did anything. Most Tyranid armies abused the hell out of the "mutable genus" rules to get a minimum amount of species (usually 3) to maximise the amount of Rending Claw mutants you could have in a unit of Gaunts. So Tyranid armies had three units - Hive Tyrants, Rending Claw Mutant Hordes, Carnifexes. Sometimes Tyrant Guard. No one took Warriors, Lictors, Biovores, Raveners - anything really - because they were all junk. So no, Tyranids were not ok in 3rd.

So 4th came along, and with it GW's desire to sell their brand new plastic Carnifex. This was the time of the Nidzilla (and the original Stealer Shock). Unfortunately, that’s all they could do. Try playing ‘Nids in any other way resulted in a sub-par army that couldn’t really do anything. If you weren’t packing 2 HT’s and 4-6 Carnifexes (or hadn’t gone full Stealer Shock) then you weren’t going to have much luck. No one took Warriors, Lictors, Biovores, Raveners – anything really – because they were all junk. So no, Tyranids were not ok in 4th.

And in 5th… well we know about that already. They couldn’t get by without a couple of units (Tervigons, Hive Guard). Stealer Shock still worked, but Nidzilla was basically dead in the water with the way ‘Fexes worked (or didn’t work). Spores could mitigate some factors, but then the FAQ ruined a significant portion of that (Primes not being able to join units pre-game). So, again, Tyranids were not ok in 5th.

But now everything’s cheaper (even if most things are objectively worse), so I guess ‘Nids are ok in 6th, right?

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaven forbid, that this may be the case once again.

*edit for SP

The issue is that Troops got significantly more expensive overall, and harder to keep around (12" bubble of doom on the Tervigon). With 5/6 games relying on capturing the objectives it turns Nids into a "table the other guy before he kills all our Synapse" army. Which doesn't sound all that fun to me.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The most hilarious thing, to me, is that instead of making Warriors really good in order to sell more, they just nerfed Tervigons so hard that Warriors seem like a viable option in comparison.

I imagine the conversation went something like this,

"We need to really push this new warrior kit"
"Well, with the Tervigon being such a hot item, I imagine we'll really have to buff them to make them desirable"
"Are you crazy? Buff Warriors? They're overpowered beyond belief as it is!"
"Yeah, I suppose you're right. So what do we do?"
"Clearly we've got to make sure no other troop choice is any better than Warriors. I mean, we've gotta show the other codices SOME mercy"

It really must have been something like that. They even hit Rippers with the nerf bat a few times, they were clearly overpowered.

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaen forbid, that this may be the case once again.

Well, I wish what you just said was true, but I cannot see how. I can't make a list even on par with my 5e ones, let alone good enough to not need Tervigons. Troops have basically become more expensive as they need poison now, hormagaunts have... I mean, what's even the point of them any more? They're strictly worse than termagants other than the run which isn't even good alone. Heck, I can take some 4e lists and THEY'RE more expensive. It's just a mess.

Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

The changes to Rippers had to be conscious, right? That means that the person who wrote this genuinely thought Rippers were too good or they don’t understand their own rules.

Both prospects are frightening.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

Obviously there will be more to it.

Everything else seems okay(-ish), but those changes to instinctive behaviour seem really worrying and potentially crippling. Tyranids are basically unable to leave an unit sitting on a backfield objective. And if the enemy guns down your synapse creatures, the entire army just folds. I don't understand what they were thinking.

 Red Corsair wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

Obviously there will be more to it.

Even if there is you don't see the opportunity cost failure here? Requiring half of our available HQ slots to babysit 1/3 of our available Troops slots (and therefore not allowing that HQ to provide that Synapse up-table) isn't a great idea.

 Crimson wrote:
Everything else seems okay(-ish), but those changes to instinctive behaviour seem really worrying and potentially crippling. Tyranids are basically unable to leave an unit sitting on a backfield objective. And if the enemy guns down your synapse creatures, the entire army just folds. I don't understand what they were thinking.

They were thinking buy more synapse creatures and don't through them away. I don't understand why people fail to see how synapse is great. There is a down side obviously but don't forget your units gain the USR fearless while in it which is huge. A 4ppm GEQ with fearless. There needed to be a drawback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

Obviously there will be more to it.

Even if there is you don't see the opportunity cost failure here? Requiring half of our available HQ slots to babysit 1/3 of our available Troops slots (and therefore not allowing that HQ to provide that Synapse up-table) isn't a great idea.

maybe a min genestealer unit will be the new backfield.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The changes to Rippers had to be conscious, right? That means that the person who wrote this genuinely thought Rippers were too good or they don’t understand their own rules.

Both prospects are frightening.

A lot of this book is frightening like that, and makes you think GW might have been taken over by some sort of gradually-degrading-into-insanity extragalactic artifical intelligence.

Like, I will bet my life that no human being 2010-2013 ever said any of the following phrase out loud, or even thought them in a moment of private weakness:

"I really think Scything Talons are too good, and something should be done about them."

"Implant Attacks have no place in this codex!"

"In my opinion, the Tyranid Prime costs about half as much as it should."

"Crushing Claws and the creatures that can take them really need to improve at killing vehicles."

"Maybe Tyranids should shoot each other when they fail IB! It's so fluffy!"

Only a gravely diseased mind could have arrived at the conclusion that these were issues needing rectification.

Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where their combat effectiveness is essentially neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse an advantage more than a liability.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

Yeah, they can be, but that means they're S3. In assaults, you'll kill nothing. Out of assaults, you'll die like flies. Tau in particular can easily kill 120+ gants a turn, more if they're a gun line. The old codex succeeded with lots of units, not lots of models. Sure, you COULD fire at the unit of 6 gants, or the unit of 7 or the unit of 10, but you can't wipe them all with one squad. Now, you can, pretty easily. Devilgants need to get close, so without pods, your non-assaulty troops are walking up the board, hoping their synapse doesn't die and then firing essentially a lot of BS3 bolters. It's just not that awesome for 8ppm. Primes would have been awesome with the new mixed units but now they're 125 points with an actual nerf. Who knows why, but that means this blob will be MORE expensive than doing the same in 5e, but now you can't gain stuff from Tervigons and you don't have good delivery. Believe me, I've been trying my best to make this book work. I just don't see how to live a gun line AND actually do damage when you get there. Heck, synapse is a huge issue in this new book, far more than people think - without Tervigons, there's nothing really capable of pushing up other than primes which are way more expensive.

From reading through all of the codex images that have come out so far.. I'm just about stunned in disbelief.

This codex is just -bad-. I've yet to see the SLord's rules, but they would literally have to give your entire army +3 to all stats, have a 48" 3+ FNP bubble, 48" EW bubble, and 48" armour save become inv save.
That is not hyperbole. That is honestly how good he needs to be to counterbalance just how aweful this book is. the fact that there is a 50% chance that 2/3 of your army with either run away for no reason or kill itself is beyond idiotic.
Yes, daemons have the warp storm table. there is something like a 4% chance that something bad happens, then a further 4% chance that it actually works.

My only suggestion to everyone who plays tyranids, is to cancel your digital dex preorder, buy a physical copy, then return it 4 hours later complaining that the rules make the army almost unplayable.
Unless the playerbase does something we will literally be stuck with this awful piece of garbage for 4+ years.

And to everyone saying "Oh Tervigons were super OP and made it so Nids won EVERY TOURNAMENT EVER" ... I want to go to your tournies, because players in your area must be pretty derpy to lose to nids with Eldar, Eldau, Tau, Gravbikers, Helldrakes, Flying Circuis, Screamerstar, Seerstar, Vendettas, Scythespam, Longfang Spam. See where I'm going with that? Unless you rolled perfectly on getting the 2 powers -required- to make that army work (Iron arm and/or Endurance) on EVERY psyker, your army took a hit. Granted, the competitive scene in my area is significantly less 'competitive', but people bring strong lists none the less. I seriously can't find any synergy between what new units I've seen, aside from the same token things that literally every single army has.

Worst part about this being so bad is that even if I wanted to offload my Nids (I really don't), the book is so bad almost no-one will want them, and those that do aren't going to pay anything CLOSE to what standard 40k 3rd party prices tend to be. I guess GW wanted Tyranids to be the ACTUAL whipping boys if 6e, so the two DV armies have someone to beat up every time.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where they're basically neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse a liability more than an advantage.

Actually the change from 5th to 6th fearless assault rules was HUGE! 4ppm gants able to tie up threats while in synapse or to not worry turn 5 while on an objective is not a small thing. Never taking fearless wounds in assault is a pain.

How are those gants going to get into combat though? Hoofing it across the table, into the enemy gunline, devoid of their (recently destroyed) Syanpse? They'll spend more turns running away or eating one another than they will advancing or killing the enemy.

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

You're about to get your head torn off.

Just fair warning...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where they're basically neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse a liability more than an advantage.

Actually the change from 5th to 6th fearless assault rules was HUGE! 4ppm gants able to tie up threats while in synapse or to not worry turn 5 while on an objective is not a small thing. Never taking fearless wounds in assault is a pain.

They're going to have to walk across the entire board to get to assault. If you want to keep that fearless bubble, that means you're going to have to walk your synapse unit across the board too.

Into range of enemy guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

It's not written for a casual environment. It's written for idiots who believe that everything is good for the game because THEY have fun still.

Want to know why you don't have pick up games? Because there are no new players. The playerbase has been stagnating for a while now, and this will make it worse again. Do you think that's a good thing? Do you really see the fact you have no pick up games as anything other than a disaster?

How can you apologise for a company shafting people who've spent hundreds, maybe thousands on their product? This is a disgrace and so are you.

We will be taking warriors because we need them, not because they're good. Ugh.

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

Yeah, they can be, but that means they're S3. In assaults, you'll kill nothing. Out of assaults, you'll die like flies. Tau in particular can easily kill 120+ gants a turn, more if they're a gun line. The old codex succeeded with lots of units, not lots of models. Sure, you COULD fire at the unit of 6 gants, or the unit of 7 or the unit of 10, but you can't wipe them all with one squad. Now, you can, pretty easily. Devilgants need to get close, so without pods, your non-assaulty troops are walking up the board, hoping their synapse doesn't die and then firing essentially a lot of BS3 bolters. It's just not that awesome for 8ppm. Primes would have been awesome with the new mixed units but now they're 125 points with an actual nerf. Who knows why, but that means this blob will be MORE expensive than doing the same in 5e, but now you can't gain stuff from Tervigons and you don't have good delivery. Believe me, I've been trying my best to make this book work. I just don't see how to live a gun line AND actually do damage when you get there. Heck, synapse is a huge issue in this new book, far more than people think - without Tervigons, there's nothing really capable of pushing up other than primes which are way more expensive.

I share your concern, but lets look at the hormegaunt now. its nly +1PPM over the termigant and is very fast. By nerfing the tervigon GW basically shifted us in that direction. 30 stock horms is only 150pts and with fleet and bounding leap will move an average of ~13". I don't see tau killing 120+ models in a single turn unless your playing MASSIVE games.

Right now I am looking at 90pt warrior broods to babysit my backfield objective and babysit my 3 biovores.

Genestealers were the other unit I was looking at but they would do nothing but look threatening. So for under 100pts i have synapse and objective holding covered.

The new synapse is essentially a phase out mechanic, except you don't need to kill 75% of the Tyranids.. You'll only need to kill about 25% or less. The flip of the coin is that your units are sometimes fearless. Whoopdy-gakking-doo.

Now that we know the points costs of all the units the book wouldn't be anywhere close to overpowered if everything was fearless for free and the synapse rule or instinctive behaviour didn't even exist. But we all know it wouldn't be as cinematic as Uriel Ventris and his band of brothers needling a Dominatrix with a whatever device and in one hit destroying a billion Tyranids and winning the war.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where they're basically neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse a liability more than an advantage.

Actually the change from 5th to 6th fearless assault rules was HUGE! 4ppm gants able to tie up threats while in synapse or to not worry turn 5 while on an objective is not a small thing. Never taking fearless wounds in assault is a pain.

They're going to have to walk across the entire board to get to assault. If you want to keep that fearless bubble, that means you're going to have to walk your synapse unit across the board too.

Into range of enemy guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Stage 5. Community embraces the horror. The blame-game begins for the crestfallen, while the most stalwart, those who simply refuse to be phased, spend months insisting that the movie wasn't that bad; defending its flaws and attacking other members of the community (for 40K, this will be the group of people who insist for months that the community needs more time to judge the codex after its release. "We don't know all the best builds yet! Give it some time! There's still strong combos that we might have missed! Dataslates and expansion!" Just because there's no 2++ invuln cheese doesn't mean its bad!)

Glorious.

We're here guys.

Stage 5 is upon us. Embrace the horror.

I have to laugh considering I am a HUGE pessimist by nature. It's the scientist I am that refuses to pass judgement without testing I suppose.