Tyranid Release in January: GW pre-orders up, discussion starts pg 80

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**Imposter101**

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Imposter101 wrote:

I made a mathematical error. The response is to create a poor straw man at the end of your post. I'd avoid that in the future.

Thanks for the attempt at being patronising, but your sky-is-falling mistake wasn't about maths alone, as anyone can see.

yes, there are problems, but people are focusing on them alone, and a clearer picture will emerge in time, as they have with other codices.

I'm sorry, but it's hard not to focus on the negatives when the grave majority of the changes brought with this codex are negatives, and now affect almost every aspect of the codex in a negative way. We already have the clearer picture. We have unit stats, point costs, rules, psychic powers and warlord traits. The positives are almost entirely points decreases, and while these could be good they are almost entirely negated by the tide of unwanted and unneeded nerfs and removals. You've also returned to the ad-hom, a departure from your straw man. The again it always seems like generalising criticism as overblown retorhic is an easy thing to do.

Do people have to keep using fallacies?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Therion wrote:
Come on. There's always someone at every tactica or other debate about competitive units and armies telling others to simply play better, and that the reason people aren't having success with some universally craptastic units is because they don't know what they are doing Somehow to these people 40K is so deep and complicated that in the right hands every army is a GT winner, and noone can form an opinion about a unit or an army book without playing with it atleast 76 times.

I miss the days when someone would respond to a bad list or Codex with "Use Tactics!", as if that meant anything at all.

"Git gud" - /d2g/,/vg/

**Shingen**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
L0rdF1end wrote:
hyv3mynd wrote:
MVB did a good first glance here:
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2014/01/tyranids-early-reaction-from-long-time.html?m=1

My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.

If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.

I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.

There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.

QFT
Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.

Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.

Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.

Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.

How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.

This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.

You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.

You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.

Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

**Eldarain**

Shingen wrote:

Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

What are you most excited to try? Which units/alterations do you think will bode well in competitive play?

**H.B.M.C.**

Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

**Eyjio**

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

**Imposter101**

Shingen wrote:
hyv3mynd wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
L0rdF1end wrote:
hyv3mynd wrote:
MVB did a good first glance here:
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2014/01/tyranids-early-reaction-from-long-time.html?m=1

My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.

If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.

I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.

There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.

QFT
Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.

Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.

Spoiler:

Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.

Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.

How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.

This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.

You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.

You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army

.

Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

"Instead of answering the opposing sides points, I'll ridicule his statements and act in an insulting and demeaning manner, as if he is completely and totally wrong in every way, but never point out how or why he is wrong."

**HiveFleetCollossus**

I for one am super excited about the prospect of the Haruspex. T6 W5? Yes please. It also now has that OOE ability to generate extra attacks, and regenerates a wound after every combat phase... Doesn't sound too shabby? Also, its tongue has its own weapon profile and special rules, but I can't find the page. If it's a decent enough price, I may run a few on the regular.

**jifel**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Nem wrote:
The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.

So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.

How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.

Definitely overreacting.

I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.

The Tervigon is worse now than before, by a large margin. The question is... by how much? The Tervigon was ungodly before, and won tournaments on its own in a bad book. Now, it will have better support but itself is not nearly as good. Will it be worth taking? I'm not sure. It's certainly no longer a no brainer or an auto include. But with the loss of the buffs, it has one of two roles now. Run straight up, screw the gants around it, and go hit things. Pair with Carnifex for cover as it gives synapse, is scoring and is tough. This isn't a great option. Other option I see is to have it kinda isolated in the backfield. All spawns move away and up field while it holds an objective by itself. This could be viable, just keep it very cheap. Frankly, I may buy it Adrenal Glands and nothing else. Same cost as before, but not as good, however it can spawn still and has fleet if really needs to assault. Also, it may now outflank and spawn. Niche yes, but every bit helps after that nerf.

But even thinking of the Tervigon's viability as a troops choice, here's another question. What the hell else? Rippers, stealers and Warriors are literally made out of nope. Gants are ok but you need Synapse. They could hang around in the back though and do ok, I suppose. Hormagants are good and cheap as a running screen and I like the idea. However, they aren't all that great at scoring. On the other hand, they are actually more reliable scoring than gants if out of synapse. Failed that IB on either? Both can kinda stay still on a 4+ (Hormies must charge if they can. If nothings in range, just don't move and stay put.) On a 1-3, Termagants fall back. Hormagants take wounds and likely morale, which they could pass, so more likely to stay. A backfield prime with Biovores could help with synapse though. Funny thing is though? 5 genestealers are far better at holding objectives than anything but the Tervigon... wow. Troops will be the big question mark this codex, everything else is just fine.

**Shingen**

Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

**Red Corsair**

Eldarain wrote:
Shingen wrote:

Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

What are you most excited to try? Which units/alterations do you think will bode well in competitive play?

I agree, it looks like the nids will play very different, which is what I am most excited for.

**Eyjio**

Shingen wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

**Therion**

IcedAnimals wrote:
@ Therion. Speaking of the imperial guard book. How many tanks do they have in the current book that are actually missing models right now? Because unless they get new ones I think the guard book might end up losing a lot of options.

I expect the guard book to change about as much as this current Nid book just did. More of a side grade, some serious WTFs but since guard are a shooting based army they will come out of it just fine.

I wont be playing nids competitively. I never did before and this book isn't going to make me start. But I will definitely still play them as a for fun army every now and then. especially since I just bought the heirophant. The ability to use it as a 20 man transport that is insanely hard to stop from reaching your lines really helps out in a nid army. Most of our super heavies are pretty awesome honestly. And since fortifications are worthless(to us) you might as well take what you can get.

How fine they'll do is up in the air. If it's just a bland sidegrade that loses the Vendettas and some tank options and replaces them with some Haruspex / Mutilators -class garbage the IG are screwed

**Red Corsair**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

Sorry, let me make it clearer. I haven't shifted any post, I am saying we have know solid proof how the new nids will play as an army. BIG difference from saying that the tervigon change (which it clearly has) should have been expected. If anybody expected the tervigon to get better, I seriously question their common sense. I still think there are multiple viable lists in the new book from what I have seen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

**Deadshot**

Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

**Imposter101**

Red Corsair wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

Sorry, let me make it clearer. I haven't shifted any post, I am saying we have know solid proof how the new nids will play as an army. BIG difference from saying that the tervigon change (which it clearly has) should have been expected. If anybody expected the tervigon to get better, I seriously question their common sense. I still think there are multiple viable lists in the new book from what I have seen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

But we are no longer in 4th,3rd or 2nd edition Corsair.

**Battlesong**

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I think the idea, "What could have been" sums up why their is so much disappointment in this codex. Nothing changed from the 5th codex for the better except for the point cost. This codex feels cheap and lazy because it is cheap and lazy. The most thought went into making synapse worse...The artifacts are laughably bad, I can't see taking any of them ever. Not even in a for fun list, because the basic upgrades are better than the artifact upgrades. The warlord traits are bad for warlord traits, which doesn't say much but at the same time speaks volumes.

Tyranids got worse with this release but will still be able to field armies just fine and still win in a noncompetitive environment. I decided that I will still play my bugs despite this codex and how sick it makes me feel to have another army being just gutted with a release, my other being BT. By that I mean gutted of any potential, all the hope there was from seeing how awesome a lot of the 6th codices have been torn out leaving me feeling just...sad. I was hoping to at least see more bio-morphs than two for basic units again, maybe not the list we had in 4th but at least something better than TWO. I wanted to see some innovation and instead I just got an FAQ update to bring the codex in line with 6th edition. The worst part is there is just nothing to be excited about with the codex. I don't care how powerful or weak it is going to be in the current meta, I care that it is just...boring and bland. There is nothing that has me excited to try out or play with, it is all the same crap I have been playing for years now with a couple of new units that are boring or are looking pretty bad. The Exocrine is boring as gak, it does one thing and it will do that one thing all game long and never deviate from point and shoot. The Haurspex looks interesting but I just don't think it will be very good.

So now I have Tyranids and SoB with FAQ codices and my BT were just gutted with being turned into black Ultramarines. It is just getting hard to get excited about 40k anymore with half of my armies being taken in a "new" direction.

I feel your pain wholeheartedly. My 2 armies are Nids and CSM, so I understand completely what you are saying.

**Deadshot**

HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Working on translating some of the Spanish with Google Translate. Not hard, just time consuming. (You guys can do it too...)

Some of the Spanish is weirdly translated.

- Exocrine WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W5 I3 A3 S3+ L7

Biomorphs : Bioplasma Cannon, (something spanish , I think maybe crushing claws/sything talons)

Special Rules: IB ( hunt ) , Fearless

~ Symbiotic Aiming: If does not move Exocrine During the movement phase , gain +1 to its ability to * something * ( balistic skill )

- Haruspex WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W5 I3 A3 S3+ L7

Biomorphs : Crushing Claws , prehensile tongue ( Weapon found on pg 65 . ) , Acid blood

Special Rules: IB ( Feed) , Fearless

~ Beast feeding : If a Haruspex inflicts at least one wound not saved in the Assault phase , at the end of phase one gets wound which you have lost . ( Gains one lost wound)

~ Ravenous Hunger : During the turn that a Haruspex charges each unsaved wound it inflicts in combat allows you to immediately make an additional attack . Further attacks can not generate more attacks . The Haridas causing instant death only generate an additional attack (Any idea to what this sentence means? ) . Wounds inflicted by hammer Fury , acid blood or tail biomorphic not benefit from this special rule .

I'll try to get more to you guys soon.

That last rule would possible reference the Prehensible tongue which likely causes ID (dragging prey into the mouth. Hammer of Wrath, Acid Blood and Tail Biomorphs do not generate additional attacks.

**MVBrandt**

Heh, I only just realized the Tervigon had its self-destruct-on-gaunts bubble increased to 12" ... so basically if you want to use a Tervigon as synapse, don't run gaunts, which it's supposed to be used for.

It's literally a pure fluff unit now (Which in GW terms means it isn't allowed to be at all "good" at the same time). The nice thing is in casual gaming we can just retcon it; it's very easy to lol in the face of horrible rules writers at GW and play it the way it should be played instead. That doesn't do anything to help people who want to play Tyranids at the local game store, or at local tournaments, or at organized play events, or at organized narrative events, or at grand tournaments, etc., however, and that's unfortunate. GW isn't very good at building lists for the majority of its constituency, only for a very narrow niche of beer and pretzels organized group gamers who can establish acceptable play memes and standards.

**rollawaythestone**

Deadshot wrote:
Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

Just saw this. Quite a rules quandary. It makes sense though that Tervigons are no longer characters. I kind of sympathized with my opponent when I could smash his Sergeant in a challenge while bidding time for my spawned gants to join the fight.

**Plumbumbarum**

I am happy that I've never bashed mr. Crudacce 5th ed codex, and I regret pre ordering the new one. I'd rather still play the old one with friends using ymgarls, mycetic spores to throw around doom zoanthropes and carnifexes. Fun fact, I have a few Mawlocks in the work, I prefer the look over Trygons also it was somehow obvious for me they would be good in the new codex. I also don't have mycetic spore models only use nid terrain to represent them. So, no dissapointed powergamer as I could own a few people with Mawlocks, no spent too much on conversions butthurt, just the new codex looks less fun and nidy than the last also castrated for the sake of addons, in addition to probably being weaker power - wise. The only good thing about it so far is the uphill battle factor, I tend to enjoy hard mode.

btw I didn't use Tervigons a lot but Tervigon spam was a very fluffy kind of list, imo. Just taking biomancy from them would be enough of a nerf, assuming "can't take allies" and assault oriented nids needed any.

**Deadshot**

HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Lol. More Google translate crap. Think I'll stop here.

Carnifex special rule (suckily traslated):

Living Ram: when this miniature hammer attack charges into anger instead of just 1 attack. (Any idea what this means?)

It says Carnifexes have Rage, or do D3 Hammer of Wrath when under Rage I think. Likely the translation is

When this model declares a charge while under the Rage Special Rule, a Carnifex inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath Hits instead of 1.

Either that or anger is a mistranslation for combat.

**Red Corsair**

Imposter101 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

Sorry, let me make it clearer. I haven't shifted any post, I am saying we have know solid proof how the new nids will play as an army. BIG difference from saying that the tervigon change (which it clearly has) should have been expected. If anybody expected the tervigon to get better, I seriously question their common sense. I still think there are multiple viable lists in the new book from what I have seen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

But we are no longer in 4th,3rd or 2nd edition Corsair.

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

**Arbiter_Shade**

Battlesong wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I think the idea, "What could have been" sums up why their is so much disappointment in this codex. Nothing changed from the 5th codex for the better except for the point cost. This codex feels cheap and lazy because it is cheap and lazy. The most thought went into making synapse worse...The artifacts are laughably bad, I can't see taking any of them ever. Not even in a for fun list, because the basic upgrades are better than the artifact upgrades. The warlord traits are bad for warlord traits, which doesn't say much but at the same time speaks volumes.

Tyranids got worse with this release but will still be able to field armies just fine and still win in a noncompetitive environment. I decided that I will still play my bugs despite this codex and how sick it makes me feel to have another army being just gutted with a release, my other being BT. By that I mean gutted of any potential, all the hope there was from seeing how awesome a lot of the 6th codices have been torn out leaving me feeling just...sad. I was hoping to at least see more bio-morphs than two for basic units again, maybe not the list we had in 4th but at least something better than TWO. I wanted to see some innovation and instead I just got an FAQ update to bring the codex in line with 6th edition. The worst part is there is just nothing to be excited about with the codex. I don't care how powerful or weak it is going to be in the current meta, I care that it is just...boring and bland. There is nothing that has me excited to try out or play with, it is all the same crap I have been playing for years now with a couple of new units that are boring or are looking pretty bad. The Exocrine is boring as gak, it does one thing and it will do that one thing all game long and never deviate from point and shoot. The Haurspex looks interesting but I just don't think it will be very good.

So now I have Tyranids and SoB with FAQ codices and my BT were just gutted with being turned into black Ultramarines. It is just getting hard to get excited about 40k anymore with half of my armies being taken in a "new" direction.

I feel your pain wholeheartedly. My 2 armies are Nids and CSM, so I understand completely what you are saying.

Hey I have Nids, CSM, CD, Eldar, Sob, and BT(Black Ultramarines) Every army I have has been updated for 6th and it ranges from bad, Nids, to decent, CSM and SoB, to great!, Eldar, to non-existant, BT.

The worst part is? I don't really play the Eldar because they were given to me by a friend who was getting out of the game and I just don't care for them. Nids and BT have always been my favorite armies and...GW has not been kind to me lately. Hopefully my next project being Orks I can see if I can finally be thrown a bone!

**rigeld2**

Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

Are you playing 6th edition? It would explain a lot if you're not.

Please, show me a winning army with the 5th edition codex that didn't use Tervigons.

**wyomingfox**

hyv3mynd wrote:
How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.

You could also look at the old Tervigon as having provided very cheap poison and furious charge to all of your gaunts (20 pts per Tervigon split between all the gaunts on the field -- which for me was normally 60 after spawning) . Now to get the same benifit you have to pay +4 points a model for toxic sacs & adrenal glands on each guant...which increases thier cost from 5.66ppm (40 pts for two tervies divided over 60 models) in 5th to 8ppm in 6th (or 6ppm if you only cared about poison). How I see it is that termigaunts didn't get cheaper...they actually got more expensive.

**Deadshot**

rollawaythestone wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

Just saw this. Quite a rules quandary. It makes sense though that Tervigons are no longer characters. I kind of sympathized with my opponent when I could smash his Sergeant in a challenge while bidding time for my spawned gants to join the fight.

I see this as a way of Nids denying a VP for Slay the Warlord, but also hampering themselves by denying access to Strategic Traits.

**Eyjio**

Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

**Red Corsair**

rigeld2 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

Are you playing 6th edition? It would explain a lot if you're not.

Please, show me a winning army with the 5th edition codex that didn't use Tervigons.

Sorry, I meant tyranids were viable prior to having access to them. Yes I admit in 5th they were a no brainer, and most times necessary but does that mean they should be relied upon forever? I welcome a new era that doesn't rely on one broken unit.

**Ravenous D**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yikes. Just read the Tervigon page. Hive Mind powers or nothing. No moving/shooting for spawned Termagants. Doesn't sound fun.

Think of the narratives!! That's where the fun is.

**Altruizine**

rollawaythestone wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

Just saw this. Quite a rules quandary. It makes sense though that Tervigons are no longer characters. I kind of sympathized with my opponent when I could smash his Sergeant in a challenge while bidding time for my spawned gants to join the fight.

This is actually kind of spitefully awesome. It might be a legitimate strategy to go without a Warlord, since it can be hard for nids to get the Warlord VP from an opponent, whereas our own Warlords are relatively easy to poach since they often have to be leading the pack, and unprotected. They'll FAQ it eventually, though.

Has anyone seen a comprehensive list of which models can take the awful bio-relics? Tyrants and Primes for sure... but how about Trygon Primes, Tervigons, and so on?