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LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Where does it say they were stronger?

But since you asked.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Primarch

It should be noted that Adeptus Custodes gene-seed, which is apparently derived from the undifferentiated Primarch gene-stock, is more complex than base Astartes gene-seed as it contains 12 more elements. The source of Custodian gene-seed, being only one step removed from the actual DNA of the Emperor Himself, may explain the Custodes' extremely heightened sense of kinship with the Emperor. However, the Custodian genetic code is still far simpler than each of the individual Primarch genomes, even though all were derived from the same source: the undifferentiated, pure Primarch gene-stock.

so the primarchs were still superior to a custode

Yep. They were more or less clones of the Emperor.

the privilege to be born a primarch

the chance 1/18 of being born a demi god more powerful then all the humans besides your fellow brothers and the emperor

LightKing wrote:
the privilege to be born a primarch

the chance 1/18 of being born a demi god more powerful then all the humans besides your fellow brothers and the emperor

Yeah, that's the thing...you can't be born a Primarch. They were genetically engineered. As in, born in a lab. In a large test tube. It's not even science; chances are the Emperor used a bit of magic as well, to speed up the process.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
the privilege to be born a primarch

the chance 1/18 of being born a demi god more powerful then all the humans besides your fellow brothers and the emperor

Yeah, that's the thing...you can't be born a Primarch. They were genetically engineered. As in, born in a lab. In a large test tube. It's not even science; chances are the Emperor used a bit of magic as well, to speed up the process.

true but the chances your consciousness, your "being" is one of the primarchs is astronomical.....

The thunder warriors were genetically unstable and we're not immortal due to the instability of their genetic makeup. I forget which HH book covered them but some astartes are confronted by a thunder warrior who is basically a gang leader on terra. He is stronger and faster than they are, but he wants the secrets of their genetic makeup.

OP I think it is an interesting question. Sure the astartes are better logisitcally but why not keep the ability to augment guard regiments (like D-99) to Thunder-Warrior level? It seems that the tech requirements are less, since the Emprah made thunderwarriors without any assistance from Mars. Plus it seems that people of any age can be made Thunder Warriors not just the 11-17 window for Space Marines. Keep them out of armor and without the advanced Astartes weapons and they will still be weaker than SM, if you are worried about controllability.

I read somewhere that a sizeable fraction of the (very few, like dozens) of Thunder Warriors who survived the unification somewhat healthy were the original Rogue Traders. Therefore the oldest and most powerful writs of trade belong to trader houses founded originally by a Thunder Warrior, even before the emperor's ascension. I like that piece of background as it explains why some trader houses can be so influential-- I mean, their writ of trade predates the Primarchs-- by centuries!

Even more interesting to me is that if they founded these big hereditary houses that means... yep, Thunder Warriors can produce offspring AFTER their transformation. So why not? If you start mass-producing thunder warriors again (and they were mass produced, unlike the bespoke marines) then they can pass those super-enhanced genes on to the next generation! Cool!

Yes, the thunder warriors were bigger, stronger, faster. They were built specifically to conquer earth. They were big ass brutes, but there genetics were not stable and they burned out their organs.

For whatever reason the emperor perfected the space marine geneseed and it ended up making a slightly smaller, weaker and slower warrior, but one that was still far tougher, stronger, and faster than most of the universe. since they were functionally immortal that had to be an acceptable gain to the loss of the greater strength and speed of the thunder warriors.

If you had a choice between 1000 warriors who could conquer a few solar systems before having to be replaced with burn out or 1000 warriors who could conquer the same amount, slightly slower, but not have to be replaced, and who could live long enough to build on their experiences it seems like a great trade off to me.

 disdamn wrote:
Yes, the thunder warriors were bigger, stronger, faster. They were built specifically to conquer earth. They were big ass brutes, but there genetics were not stable and they burned out their organs.

For whatever reason the emperor perfected the space marine geneseed and it ended up making a slightly smaller, weaker and slower warrior, but one that was still far tougher, stronger, and faster than most of the universe. since they were functionally immortal that had to be an acceptable gain to the loss of the greater strength and speed of the thunder warriors.

If you had a choice between 1000 warriors who could conquer a few solar systems before having to be replaced with burn out or 1000 warriors who could conquer the same amount, slightly slower, but not have to be replaced, and who could live long enough to build on their experiences it seems like a great trade off to me.

The Thunder Warriors were also a lot more aggressive and hot headed. Perfect for a short bloody war in an enclosed space. Not so perfect for long term empire building and peace keeping. For that you'd want something a little more obedient. Thunder Warriors were like bulls, Marines were like dogs.

That's a remarkably good analogy, I think - Thunder Warriors are bulls (strong, but brutal and single-minded), SM were SUPPOSED to be Dogs, the "loyal" thing is debateable, but certainly controllable, plus the "working together" thing, while didn't The First Heretic compare Custodes to Lions?

So with that example, you put a bull and one dog in a room, Bull probably wins, you put a lion and a dog in a room, the Lion wins - but a pack of dogs working together...

It's that bond of brotherhood that (according to First Heretic) makes SM the force that they are - their effectiveness rises exponentially the more you have of them.

Or at least, that's how I see it.

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
That's a remarkably good analogy, I think - Thunder Warriors are bulls (strong, but brutal and single-minded), SM were SUPPOSED to be Dogs, the "loyal" thing is debateable, but certainly controllable, plus the "working together" thing, while didn't The First Heretic compare Custodes to Lions?

So with that example, you put a bull and one dog in a room, Bull probably wins, you put a lion and a dog in a room, the Lion wins - but a pack of dogs working together...

It's that bond of brotherhood that (according to First Heretic) makes SM the force that they are - their effectiveness rises exponentially the more you have of them.

Or at least, that's how I see it.

Well, technically, the SM were always loyal. It's just that during the Heresy, instead of following the Emperor, the chose to follow their "fathers," the Primarchs.

But yes, one of the greatest strengths of the SM were their ability to work as a team coordinate their attacks. This was also intended to maintain an empire - look at the Roman Legion. They were loyal and highly trained, but more noticeably, disciplined. They fought and moved as one.

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
the privilege to be born a primarch

the chance 1/18 of being born a demi god more powerful then all the humans besides your fellow brothers and the emperor

Yeah, that's the thing...you can't be born a Primarch. They were genetically engineered. As in, born in a lab. In a large test tube. It's not even science; chances are the Emperor used a bit of magic as well, to speed up the process.

true but the chances your consciousness, your "being" is one of the primarchs is astronomical.....

More like zero. The Primarchs were essentially blanks that were shaped by their home planet. And there were 20, not 18.

 Omegus wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
the privilege to be born a primarch

the chance 1/18 of being born a demi god more powerful then all the humans besides your fellow brothers and the emperor

Yeah, that's the thing...you can't be born a Primarch. They were genetically engineered. As in, born in a lab. In a large test tube. It's not even science; chances are the Emperor used a bit of magic as well, to speed up the process.

true but the chances your consciousness, your "being" is one of the primarchs is astronomical.....

More like zero. The Primarchs were essentially blanks that were shaped by their home planet. And there were 20, not 18.

=I= There were only eighteen primarchs. Nine of them rebelled. Any other numbers are heretical. Further pursuit of this opinion shall be met with the Emperor's justice. =I=

Proof:

awesome comic!

LightKing wrote:
where does it say custodes are weaker then the 18 primarchs

Angron ripped ten of them to pieces with his bare hands. They were all armed and armoured.

Thunder Warriors were created for the sole reason of conquering Earth and the Emperor made them for this purpose only, he also didn't want them around when Earth had been unified, I can only imagine due to their war like behaviour, hence making them with genetic flaws. Eventually they would just burn themselves out, those that weren't killed were hunted down and killed by the first Space Marines.

Deliverance Lost mentions that the Emperor created the same fail safe design in the Astartes, as does Aurelian, which raises the question, if this was the case, why didn't the Emperor use it during the Heresy. More than likely it's stupid fluff.

I've often wondered if the Emperor had actually created some of the Legions with flaws in their gene-seed which would eventually lead them to rebel or at least require to be exterminated. Perhaps he had the same idea with the Astartes that once they had served a purpose and mankind was safe from the terrors in space he would dispose of them as he did the Thunder Warrirors.

What better cover up than having one of your sons rebel rather than killing them for no apparent reason.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Thunder Warriors were created for the sole reason of conquering Earth and the Emperor made them for this purpose only, he also didn't want them around when Earth had been unified, I can only imagine due to their war like behaviour, hence making them with genetic flaws. Eventually they would just burn themselves out, those that weren't killed were hunted down and killed by the first Space Marines.

Deliverance Lost mentions that the Emperor created the same fail safe design in the Astartes, as does Aurelian, which raises the question, if this was the case, why didn't the Emperor use it during the Heresy. More than likely it's stupid fluff.

I've often wondered if the Emperor had actually created some of the Legions with flaws in their gene-seed which would eventually lead them to rebel or at least require to be exterminated. Perhaps he had the same idea with the Astartes that once they had served a purpose and mankind was safe from the terrors in space he would dispose of them as he did the Thunder Warrirors.

What better cover up than having one of your sons rebel rather than killing them for no apparent reason.

And that, folks, is how crazy theories begin!

I like it.

He may have created a fail safe. Just look at how he made the entire Word Bearers Legion kneel with one psychic command.

Now you could say that was his large psychic power, but who's to say he didn't just send the command and flick the switch which would require less effort and achieve the same thing?

Obedience. Without resistance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Which may be part of the Chaos Gods deal with The Enperor when he created the Primarchs? "Here is the power to do it, but they will be able to have self control and determine their own paths)

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Thunder Warriors were created for the sole reason of conquering Earth and the Emperor made them for this purpose only, he also didn't want them around when Earth had been unified, I can only imagine due to their war like behaviour, hence making them with genetic flaws. Eventually they would just burn themselves out, those that weren't killed were hunted down and killed by the first Space Marines.

Deliverance Lost mentions that the Emperor created the same fail safe design in the Astartes, as does Aurelian, which raises the question, if this was the case, why didn't the Emperor use it during the Heresy. More than likely it's stupid fluff.

I've often wondered if the Emperor had actually created some of the Legions with flaws in their gene-seed which would eventually lead them to rebel or at least require to be exterminated. Perhaps he had the same idea with the Astartes that once they had served a purpose and mankind was safe from the terrors in space he would dispose of them as he did the Thunder Warrirors.

What better cover up than having one of your sons rebel rather than killing them for no apparent reason.

Oh the conspiracy theories! And in the end we discover that the Emperor has been Tzeentch all along...

DarkSoldier wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

LightKing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
the privilege to be born a primarch

the chance 1/18 of being born a demi god more powerful then all the humans besides your fellow brothers and the emperor

Yeah, that's the thing...you can't be born a Primarch. They were genetically engineered. As in, born in a lab. In a large test tube. It's not even science; chances are the Emperor used a bit of magic as well, to speed up the process.

true but the chances your consciousness, your "being" is one of the primarchs is astronomical.....

More like zero. The Primarchs were essentially blanks that were shaped by their home planet. And there were 20, not 18.

=I= There were only eighteen primarchs. Nine of them rebelled. Any other numbers are heretical. Further pursuit of this opinion shall be met with the Emperor's justice. =I=

Ha, we know that's not even correct at the start of the Heresy, as there were... 19 Primarchs then!

I'm reading Graham McNeill's A Thousand Sons at the moment and there's a passage in the book (page 381) where Ahriman is recalling the wars of Unification with the remembrancer Lemuel.

There's a brief mention of the Thunder Warriors who Lemuel knew as the 'proto-Astartes'.

Ahriman states that the were ''brutal and unsubtle creations, but sufficient for the job of conquest'' But he also says that the Emperor himself knew they wouldn't be up to the job of reuniting humanity once they left Terra for the Great Crusade - for that he'd need another army - the Astartes. These new soldiers, the Space Marines, would be as superior to the Thunder Warriors as the Thunder Warriors were to normal humans.

McNeill has it that the Thunder Warriors ''were ordinary men, the fiercest warriors of the Emperor, within whose bodies he had implanted full-grown biological hardware and mechanical augmentations to boost their strength, endurance and speed''. The strain these changes had on their bodies and minds though drove most of them insane however. Maybe they were a necessary evil in order for the Emperor to unify Terra quickly before he could then turn his attention to the stars and what he knew would be a more lengthy campaign, for which he needed a more stable soldier stock.

Ahriman holds the Thunder Warriors with some disdain, that they were somewhat imperfect creations of the Emperor compared to the Space Marine Legions which came after.

So, I think we can maybe come to an agreement that the order of post-human superiority goes something like this:

The Emperor
The Primarchs
The Adeptus Custodes
The Adeptus Astartes
The Thunder Warriors


edit: To correctly list Astartes

 SPARKEYG wrote:
So, I think we can maybe come to an agreement that the order of post-human superiority goes something like this:

The Emperor
The Primarchs
The Adeptus Custodes
The Adeptus Arbites
The Thunder Warriors

Do you mean the Arbites or the Adeptus Astartes? I can't see how the space police fit in there.

Also, I would say those are debatable. One on on a Custodian will beat a Marine, but in a group of ten of each it will go the other way. Thunder Warriors are also different again.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 SPARKEYG wrote:
So, I think we can maybe come to an agreement that the order of post-human superiority goes something like this:

The Emperor
The Primarchs
The Adeptus Custodes
The Adeptus Arbites
The Thunder Warriors

Do you mean the Arbites or the Adeptus Astartes? I can't see how the space police fit in there.

Also, I would say those are debatable. One on on a Custodian will beat a Marine, but in a group of ten of each it will go the other way. Thunder Warriors are also different again.

You're right on my typo and I've edited it. I have an Arbites army and muscle memory took over there.

Had i been the emperor i would have stabilized the gene code of the thunder warriors using advancements from Astartes creation.

If Arik Taranis could do it with geneseed and a lot less resources then the emperor there is no logical reason why the emperor could not have done so.

I would reorganize the thunder warriors as a legion under the command of Arik Taranis then i would send them after the difficult and most dangerous foes until those to crazy and unstable all perish .

The surviving thunder warriors after their genes have been stabilized would be used as garrison forces for Terra Saturn Mars ect next to the adaptes custodes.

The thunder warriors could also be used in the executioners role seeing as they are not astartes and have the abilities to take one any space marine legion.

Once the thunder warriors have been stabilized i would allow recruitment and reinforcement for the thunder warriors from Terra.

Thunder Warriors were genetically hot-housed barbarians in rudimentary power armor meant to conquer Earth for their warlords. Space Marines were solidly the "Mk II" in every way.

I know there's one book where a Thunder Warrior is extremely powerful, but that's Black Library for you. According to them there is also a marine in the Ultramarines who is so big that he wears an amalgamation of power armor and reclaimed/altered Terminator armor, completely counter to the fluff of Terminator armor. Fluff always escalates.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Thunder Warriors were genetically hot-housed barbarians in rudimentary power armor meant to conquer Earth for their warlords. Space Marines were solidly the "Mk II" in every way.

I know there's one book where a Thunder Warrior is extremely powerful, but that's Black Library for you. According to them there is also a marine in the Ultramarines who is so big that he wears an amalgamation of power armor and reclaimed/altered Terminator armor, completely counter to the fluff of Terminator armor. Fluff always escalates.

This is the same book where a naked World Eaters Sargent rips through Custodian power armor with his bare hands, then struggles with a normal human samurai dude later in the book.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Thunder Warriors were created for the sole reason of conquering Earth and the Emperor made them for this purpose only, he also didn't want them around when Earth had been unified, I can only imagine due to their war like behaviour, hence making them with genetic flaws. Eventually they would just burn themselves out, those that weren't killed were hunted down and killed by the first Space Marines.

Deliverance Lost mentions that the Emperor created the same fail safe design in the Astartes, as does Aurelian, which raises the question, if this was the case, why didn't the Emperor use it during the Heresy. More than likely it's stupid fluff.

I've often wondered if the Emperor had actually created some of the Legions with flaws in their gene-seed which would eventually lead them to rebel or at least require to be exterminated. Perhaps he had the same idea with the Astartes that once they had served a purpose and mankind was safe from the terrors in space he would dispose of them as he did the Thunder Warrirors.

What better cover up than having one of your sons rebel rather than killing them for no apparent reason.

Oh the conspiracy theories! And in the end we discover that the Emperor has been Tzeentch all along...

Who is actually Alpharius in disguise... Or is it Omegon?