Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 djones520 wrote:
I know one guy with a History degree. He's a seasonal worker at Walmart.

I have a History Degree and I am a White Collar professional cube farmer in the corporate world.

Back when I was looking for a career pre-recession no one asked me what my degree was in or my GPA, but they all wanted to know that I had a degree. Without my degree I wouldn't have been able to climb the corporate ladder at all. Post-2007 I wouldn't even have been looked at as an entry level worker without one.

That said, it took me about 7 years until the degree really paid off. Yeah, it got my foot in the corporate door, but many of my peers doing low-level service work (such as Pizza Delivery Driver) were making as much or more than me. Than, after I climbed a few rungs up the ladder the degree vs. Non-degree differential really started to show.

The only non-degree exception was the guy who became a technical wizard at telephony without a degree. He still crushes me in the $$$ department.

 Hordini wrote:
Another part of the problem is approaching a college education as just a piece of paper or a check in the box required to get a particular job.

Indeed.

 Easy E wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I know one guy with a History degree. He's a seasonal worker at Walmart.

I have a History Degree and I am a White Collar professional cube farmer in the corporate world.

Back when I was looking for a career pre-recession no one asked me what my degree was in or my GPA, but they all wanted to know that I had a degree. Without my degree I wouldn't hav ebeen able to climb the corporate ladder at all. Post-2007 I wouldn't even hav ebeen looked at as an entry level worker without one.

That said, it took me about 7 years until the degree really paid off. Yeah, it got my foot int he corporate door, but many of my peers doing low-level service work (such as Pizza Delivery Driver) were making as much or emore than me. Than, after I climbed a few rungs up the ladder the degree vs. Non-degree differential really started to show.

The only non-degree exception was the guy who became a technical wizard at telephony without a degree. He still crushes me in the $$$ department.

Also an outstanding point. Certain avenues will be shut off to you without a degree. Obviously that doesn't mean that you can't break through into the high income brackets without one, but it does make it harder.

My wife and I have had this conversation about our kids, and we're fine if they don't want to attend regular college, so long as they get some kind of training, and work to be successful. Which is defined as being happy with their life with at least a moderate level of income.

To be clear though, saying "you don't need a degree" is just as arbitrary and inaccurate as saying "you need a degree." It's really a person-by-person thing, and not a blanket statement either way.

My College degree was free

(the benefits of a socialist state, now to emigrate)

 Redbeard wrote:

Instead of sending everyone to college, regardless of ability or intent, we should be focusing more people on trades. You know what jobs can't be off-shored? Plumbers can't be offshored. No kid in China or India is going to unclog your drain for you over the phone. Mechanics - face it, cars aren't going anywhere, and you're not sending your car to Taiwan to be fixed. There are a lot of trades that need workers, and it's a good honest middle class living.

This. I grew up working on cars, and went to a technical college...and I landed a good job with great benefits with only two years worth of schooling, and a degree to show for it. Unfortunately, if you don't have a basic understanding of the field you're going into, you'll have trouble.

 Easy E wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But Dakka, this site has taught me alot.

Am I the only one terrified by this?

I don't know...

What I like about dakka is that we have an incredible diversity here... makes for interesting discussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Matt1785 wrote:
No, college is not for everyone, but the opportunity for a college education should be open for all that want to pursue it.

I have a college education but am in a position (Construction Superintendent), where most do not. My pay started higher then most, but over time it's the knowledge of the job that matters, not what you learned in school.

The most important thing that someone can learn in college is HOW to learn. I studied Structural Engineering in college, I haven't designed anything since I left.

Pretty much this. I studied Industrial Engineering, I'm working as a Construction Estimator/APM, the money is more than what most in this position get starting out, but its almost 20k less than what I should be making if I were in a position where my degree was relevant (meaning that to me, right now, my diploma wasn't really important).

This! I can't stress this enough.

In my line of work (Healthcare IT)... there's no school or technical training as it's still a "niched" industry. I want to college to get the basics of Computer Science and Management of Information Systems.

Those gave me a smaill foundation to work from when I started my career.

I had to teach myself to research and lean the skillsets I need to do my job.

I did NOT get any of these skills while I was in college:
Report Writing (Crystal Reports / Business Objects)
Java
Advanced SQL query
Oracle, Progress, MS SQL, Sybase databases
VMware
Advanced Networking concepts
PERL
..etc...
Then... I needed to understand the workflow, policy and how the various Hospital Depts operate (non-IT stuff).

Basically, I ended up being someone who knows a lot of different things that can be dangerous. That's valuable because I can support my users speaking their languauge, and then turn around and engage the technical resources to get gak done.

The biggest attribute that allowed me to develop this way... is the RESEARCH (find a guru, GOOGLE, go to workshop seminars, etc...) and having some "sand box" where I trial things out.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The US education system needs to be fixed in every which way, college shouldn't be forced on people, especially not on teenagers who really don't know any better, and there should be a "recognized" alternative available to those that choose not to go for higher education (like a system of trade schools/apprenticeships or what have you, a lot of people don't pursue those avenues because they aren't necessarily aware of them). If I was a little more mature when I graduated high school, knowing what I know now... I don't necessarily know that I would have gone to college, aside from the whole military officer angle.

I don't mean to derail the thread with this
are you an ROTC alumnus? what branch?
I see you're also from NJ

Many people go into the trades straight out of highschool. After a few years of apprenticeship they will make much more money than a university grad (so long as they have a good work ethic).

I've seen many of my straight-A peers suddenly thrust from their cozy libraries and study groups into real jobs - many of these people are quite useless as employees since there is no time to research what they need to do when a client is yelling in your face.

One of my professors used offer his top student in each class a really good summer internship within some well known companies. He told me that he had stopped after a few years since the "top" students would often lack communication skills and become easily overwhelmed in stressful/hectic situations.

My point is - that some people can succeed without college as it all comes down to what skills you possess. University doesn't teach basic skills that employers look for which is why you find graduates losing jobs to people with proven skills/experience from minimum wage jobs.

Funny, the colleges I spied to said they are wary of straight A students. Saying that those types often lack social skills because the skills required for those grades are often anti social. Like my sis. She quit mcdonalds because it was too much work.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Funny, the colleges I spied to said they are wary of straight A students. Saying that those types often lack social skills because the skills required for those grades are often anti social. Like my sis. She quit mcdonalds because it was too much work.

Well with the stories I've heard about your sister from you via Dakka, I am not surprised by this.

Without sounding arrogant about it:

I'm 28. I graduated from High School with a D average, worked a lot of minimum wage jobs, and 10 years later am making $24/hr without any further school. My job requires skill instead of some piece of paper that says I sat in lectures and theoretically learned things for lots of money.

My sister (26) spend 150k on a 4 year private college degree in Graphic Design, and right out of school she got a job making $12/hr with all of that debt to pay back. 6 years later she's teaching English in Japan for better money(although her cost of living offsets most of that increase), but it's a job that required ANY 4 year degree, so she could have done it just as much with a community college degree that didn't cost my dad a second mortgage.

Everyone told us that we NEEDED college to get anywhere. Meanwhile at my job I've turned down 4 people with B.A.'s because they lacked any actual work experience. Plenty of people in my office who make 50-100k/yr with nothing beyond a high school education and no student loans to pay off.

Just do what I did, get a job that is a social taboo, easy to find, not hard, good work hours and the pay is good.

Being able to call my self a drug lord is just a bonus.

 Soladrin wrote:
Just do what I did, get a job that is a social taboo, easy to find, not hard, good work hours and the pay is good.

Being able to call my self a drug lord is just a bonus.

Your country is the biggest manufacturer of the fun drug... So I'll assume that is what you sling.

Plenty of ways to make money without college!!!

 Aerethan wrote:
Without sounding arrogant about it:

I'm 28. I graduated from High School with a D average, worked a lot of minimum wage jobs, and 10 years later am making $24/hr without any further school. My job requires skill instead of some piece of paper that says I sat in lectures and theoretically learned things for lots of money.

My sister (26) spend 150k on a 4 year private college degree in Graphic Design, and right out of school she got a job making $12/hr with all of that debt to pay back. 6 years later she's teaching English in Japan for better money(although her cost of living offsets most of that increase), but it's a job that required ANY 4 year degree, so she could have done it just as much with a community college degree that didn't cost my dad a second mortgage.

Everyone told us that we NEEDED college to get anywhere. Meanwhile at my job I've turned down 4 people with B.A.'s because they lacked any actual work experience. Plenty of people in my office who make 50-100k/yr with nothing beyond a high school education and no student loans to pay off.

That's awesome. And for every story like yours, there are just as many people will college degrees that are 28 and 10 years after high school are making $50+/hour.

I agree that not everyone needs to go to college and that trades are plenty viable, but don't get it twisted: your earning potential is significantly higher with a college education that without, unless you're LeBron James.

LOL if you need colledge to learn how to learn... thats just sad... and expensive...

I once bought a used MP3 player, back when they were the size of discmen and had hard drives in them.

It had a self help tape on it that I now quote from:

" Learn how to learn."

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Funny, the colleges I spied to said they are wary of straight A students. Saying that those types often lack social skills because the skills required for those grades are often anti social. Like my sis. She quit mcdonalds because it was too much work.

Well with the stories I've heard about your sister from you via Dakka, I am not surprised by this.

Damn, do I really talk about heer that much?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Without sounding arrogant about it:

I'm 28. I graduated from High School with a D average, worked a lot of minimum wage jobs, and 10 years later am making $24/hr without any further school. My job requires skill instead of some piece of paper that says I sat in lectures and theoretically learned things for lots of money.

My sister (26) spend 150k on a 4 year private college degree in Graphic Design, and right out of school she got a job making $12/hr with all of that debt to pay back. 6 years later she's teaching English in Japan for better money(although her cost of living offsets most of that increase), but it's a job that required ANY 4 year degree, so she could have done it just as much with a community college degree that didn't cost my dad a second mortgage.

Everyone told us that we NEEDED college to get anywhere. Meanwhile at my job I've turned down 4 people with B.A.'s because they lacked any actual work experience. Plenty of people in my office who make 50-100k/yr with nothing beyond a high school education and no student loans to pay off.

That's awesome. And for every story like yours, there are just as many people will college degrees that are 28 and 10 years after high school are making $50+/hour.

I agree that not everyone needs to go to college and that trades are plenty viable, but don't get it twisted: your earning potential is significantly higher with a college education that without, unless you're LeBron James.

College degrees are only really needed for specialized fields though. Anything heavy in math, sure. You know how many people have careers as salespeople who rake in 50k+ and don't know algebra I? A boat load. There are PLENTY of high paying jobs where education is of minimal consideration, and practical skills are king.

An uneducated critical thinker is far more valuable than an educated idiot who can only repeat what they've been told instead of solving problems using their own cognitive reasoning skills.

I got my job because I'm lazy. I was given a data entry spot at $10/hr and I found EVERY way to do as little work as possible while still getting the job done right. I figured I'd pass my methods on to my boss(who ignored them) and then up to his boss. He saw that my efficiency skyrocketed without cutting any corners. A week later I was promoted to head up my team, and a year later I've since tripled the size of that team. All because I didn't want to work very hard(which kinda bit me in the ass, as I work harder now, but the increase in pay makes it well worth while).

Always find a lazy critical thinker to do a difficult task that needs to be done repeatedly, and they will find the easiest way to do it.

 Aerethan wrote:

An uneducated critical thinker is far more valuable than an educated idiot who can only repeat what they've been told instead of solving problems using their own cognitive reasoning skills.

One of the most important, and most valuable parts of a college education is learning how to think critically or improving on already existing critical thinking skills. If you think it's just about rote memorization of a bunch of facts, you're doing it wrong, you're being cheated, or both.

I can think of at least 5 classes I took in high school where that time would have been infinitely better spent teaching critical thinking.

Math beyond Algebra 1 and Geometry is specialized to the point where 90% of us never use it (engineers, chemists, any manner of scientist really could use it. Sales people don't need to know calculus.

Literature should be an elective for those inclined to take it, instead of wasting 2 years of my life over crap I really have no interest in. Art as well for that matter. Electives should be the classes kids WANT to take because they appeal to them, not the filler classes because mandatory class X wasn't available that period.

High school doesn't teach you how to survive for gak if you don't go to college. They aren't teaching how to manage a budget, economics somehow is an elective when it(like US government) should be mandatory as it is USEFUL info that people can use regardless of what they end up doing with their life.

College should really be reserved for those fields where specialized expertise is needed. Not for people trying to get a job teaching English in Japan. That is asinine. If you've ever been online looking for work, you'd be surprised at how many stupid low end jobs require 4 year degrees but they pay barely 25% over unskilled labor.

Further, look at how many wildly successful people went to college and dropped out when they realized they didn't actually need it to get by. They may be the exception to the rule, but plenty of them are in highly specialized fields where their own effort got them spades more than a degree would have.

If you WANT to go to college, by all means go. But my generation was lied to hand over fist about us not being able to get decent jobs unless we went and took on some massive financial burden that would haunt us for another 10 years after we were out.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I got a degree because the military said I needed one to be an officer... so I figured I might as well do something worthwhile and study engineering... Well, the military thing blew up in my face, but I still have the degree

You had plenty of Privates at your disposal for clearing that minefield.. its your own damn fault the military blew up in your face


But yeah... Guys like Mike Rowe have now been going to Congress, and starting "charity" groups to combat this ridiculous notion that many American schools teach kids that the "only" way to be successful is to graduate college. Hell, guys like John Kerry are still mistakenly "suggesting" that college is the only route to success (with his faux pas, of saying either go to college and be successful, or join the military)

If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!

 StyleXHobby wrote:
If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!

Said naive people everywhere.

 Easy E wrote:
I remmeber just befor ethe recession seeing lot's of newspaper articles and discussions about Plumbers, Electricians, and and Construction workers were needed as the demand was outstripping the prospective graduation rates. Then, the bubble burst and the great recession struck. Suddenly, all those same people who couldn't keep up with deman were out of work and getting foreclosed on themselves.

Face it, in the future their is no stability. Be ready to switch skills sets and get training multiple times as the average person changes fields 7 times in the their life.

That's true to an extent, but there's still good picks that are likely to work out and plenty of other picks that are much less likely to work out.

And within those picks, there's also the issue of transferable skills, and skills that are useful outside of the profession.

 StyleXHobby wrote:
If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!

It is not my love of homeowners insurance that keeps me going to work every day, it's the paycheck and the fact that I don't HATE it.

Dreams are nice, but settling on a job you don't hate is far better than a lot of people get off with.

And plenty of people work hard only to end up penniless and destitute(see Nikola Tesla).

Cunning will make you far more money than hard work. Hard work is generally what keeps the money coming in long term.

Or you can be like me and work your job while floating the $2 a week to test statistics at the lottery. Bla bla bla the odds are low. You know what odds of winning are worse? Not playing at all.

The worst that happens is you toss a dollar down the drain. The alternate option is immensely better if luck is on your side that day. Low risk, high yield.

 cincydooley wrote:
Said naive people everywhere.

Yes and no. On the one hand, I agree because a lot of people choose their degree with little understanding about what having little money really means. Kids leaving highschool think that in choosing the degree they love they're just giving up on flash cars and big houses, but what they don't get is that having money means removing a major stress from your life. A decent income means you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay next month's rent, and it means if your dog gets sick then you can get treatment without having to worry about where the money is coming from.

On the other hand, I know more than a few people who went in to degrees because they wanted to set themselves up financially, but floundered because they didn't care at all for the work. One fellow I know was extremely gifted and did extremely well in their commerce degree, but floundered when he went out to work, spent about five years in the same entry level job before packing it in and becoming a blues guitarist. He now does quite well for himself, not great but well enough. He also brings out other bands, using his financial training to good effect, so I guess he does get some value out of his degree.

Point being that if something really does bore you to tears then there's a chance that you'll flounder and go nowhere.

But then there's also the issue that while something might sound utterly boring on the surface, when you actually work in it it can be very rewarding. I wasn't too interested in studying accounting standards or any of that nonsense, but once I got out in the real world I found hunting through our financial records to build patterns and model processes quite a lot of fun. Whereas I know a few people who loved law and learning about all these important legal principles, only to find the job consisted largely of following rote processes over and over again, with little ability to use their creativity.

So I guess what I'm saying is that there's no one great answer for what you ought to do. Which I guess is why so many people get it wrong the first time around. Maybe the best advice would be that it's okay to get it wrong once, twice or five times, as long as you don't get stuck and unable to change later on.

To be honest I think part of it boils down to what my proff once said "There is no Plan in life, Try your best to schedule it but dont think it will all pan out"

I went straight into the military out of high school and then the federal government. I'm going to turn 30 in six or so months and I will have 11 years in with the Fed; I chose thusly because as much as I am an intelligent, competent and hard working SOB - and I would like to be judged on such - I saw my dad get completely screwed even with similar traits as the company he worked for got bought out like five times and his seniority and prospects collapsed.

Working for the Fed I can change jobs, do whatever and keep my years and benefits. The downside is working with habitual government employees, many of whom do not share my wit and drive.

At some point I am going to need a degree, any degree to keep advancing. It's kind of lame as I don't enjoy structured education; on the other hand I have a GI Bill that I haven't used at all and expires in 2016 or so. I hate the fact that no matter how skilled and competent I am, at some point I will need a degree - no matter how irrelevant to my job - to be promoted.

 Blacksails wrote:
Hahaha, welcome to my life!

I have a degree in Military and Strategic Studies, which is a fancy way of saying I took the easiest Politics, Psych, and History classes available, drank for four years, and walked out with a degree I'll never truly apply.

Now, I fly things for the military.

Still don't have my wings yet...soon...

Bugs?

 cincydooley wrote:

 StyleXHobby wrote:
If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!

Said naive people everywhere.

I agree. My favorite naive person is Alan Watts.

 Aerethan wrote:

And plenty of people work hard only to end up penniless and destitute(see Nikola Tesla).

For what it's worth, part of that came from Tesla wanting to work for the common good, and part of it came from the fact that Thomas Edison was a massive dick.

I don't go to college, I don't see the need to.