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And your point is what?

 cincydooley wrote:
And your point is what?

That university isn't for everyone? That sometimes even if you do well, get a good qualification from a good institution you might struggle to get a job in your chosen field because of outside factors? That people can and are, in some instances, better served by learning a trade or doing something other than going to university?

I'm not entirely sure why you are being so hostile...

 Aerethan wrote:
I maintain that McJobs are for children.

Reality disagres with your, frankly, ignorant viewpoint.

Edit: To the topic itself, I agree with Mike Rowe that we should be pushing trades just as hard as college, and that people need to stop looking down on so-called "menial workers". College is not for everyone, and I would argue in fact college is not for most people. Few jobs out there have skill sets that are directly taught in colleges. Doctors, lawyers, engineers: these are the exceptions instead of the rule. Most people will learn more useful skills in their first week on the job than in the 4 (or more) years spent in college.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
And your point is what?

That university isn't for everyone? That sometimes even if you do well, get a good qualification from a good institution you might struggle to get a job in your chosen field because of outside factors? That people can and are, in some instances, better served by learning a trade or doing something other than going to university?

I'm not entirely sure why you are being so hostile...

And how does all that relate to the heaping blame you were shoveling on banks again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
I maintain that McJobs are for children.

Reality disagres with your, frankly, ignorant viewpoint.
.

Just because older people are working McJobs at minimum wage doesn't mean those jobs were intended to be careers for adults. They weren't. And aren't.

cincydooley wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
.
McDonalds just gave their CEO a $5 million/year raise.

Which has absolutely zero bearing on how much a person that dumps frozen food into a fryer should make.

..,

Aerethan wrote:
I agree that CEO pay has no actual bearing on entry level pay. My point about McDonalds has more to do with them only offering what they pay for burger flippers compared to a company that is by and large immensely successful doing the EXACT same job differently and paying better.

CEO pay should have a bearing on entry level pay, in that it's ludicrous to believe that any one individual's value to a company is 480 times that of another's. Those multiples are simply not believable. But, let's assume you're correct in stating that CEO pay should have no bearing. That's fine. I didn't bring it up by way of comparison, I brought it up as evidence that the company can obviously afford to pay more to the employees without crashing their profit margins.

I maintain that McJobs are for children.

That's swell, you keep maintaining that. And keep ducking my real question too.

Maybe McJobs are for children, but McHiring Managers continue to show a preference for hiring adults (more reliable) for these positions. Given the lack of other jobs out there currently, even for those with college degrees, where do you think the onus for keeping McJob-employed people from starving falls: on their employers, or on the taxpayers?

 cincydooley wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
And your point is what?

That university isn't for everyone? That sometimes even if you do well, get a good qualification from a good institution you might struggle to get a job in your chosen field because of outside factors? That people can and are, in some instances, better served by learning a trade or doing something other than going to university?

I'm not entirely sure why you are being so hostile...

And how does all that relate to the heaping blame you were shoveling on banks again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
I maintain that McJobs are for children.

Reality disagres with your, frankly, ignorant viewpoint.
.

Just because older people are working McJobs at minimum wage doesn't mean those jobs were intended to be careers for adults. They weren't. And aren't.

One of those rare moments when Cincy and I are on the same page.

I don't care who works McJobs. But don't go around pretending that grown ass adults can survive on entry level unskilled labor on their own. Even McDonald's budget helper they released shows that McJobs and their equivalents are only viable means of surviving if you work 2 of them at 60-70 hours per week and your rent does not exceed $550. Even in the dankest ghetto here in SoCal a 1 bed apartment runs at least $750.

If you want to support a family, entry level BS isn't gonna cut it, and people need to realize that instead of demanding that their jobs become equal to their wishes. For every single one of my employees working from home, they understand that it's part time and that it generally doesn't pay enough in hours to support them on their own. As such, ALL of my employees either live with parents or room mates, or have a spouse who is the primary earner for their household and this job is only supplemental income. These are things that I take into consideration when hiring. The last thing I want is to hire someone only to have them quit 2 months later because they finally found full time work somewhere else. It's a waste of my time.

McEmployees knew what they job paid when they took it. To demand 2x as much money for the same job is ludicrous. Even 10% raises are pretty hefty compared to other markets.

 Aerethan wrote:

McEmployees knew what they job paid when they took it. To demand 2x as much money for the same job is ludicrous. Even 10% raises are pretty hefty compared to other markets.

What a spoiled life you must live in fantasy land. Seriously, "they knew what it paid when they took it." As if there were jobs growing on trees these days. Have you looked at unemployment statistics. The real ones, not the sanitized ones that discount people who "stopped looking". Maybe, people are taking these jobs because making $7/hour is better than making $0/hour. And maybe they have a right to ask for a living wage for a day's work. Maybe if good jobs weren't being offshored, with corporate tax breaks for doing so, McJobs wouldn't be the only left on-shore. The way you speak, from on-high, makes it seem like you're ignoring the fact that a whole lot of McJob holders have gone to college, have gotten better training, and that there simply aren't jobs that require that training available.

If a job is worth hiring someone to do, it's worth paying them enough for them to live. This is just pragmatism. Because if someone is working full-time for you, and still not making enough to survive, then the taxpayers are forced to pick up the bill.

Can we stop saying McJob?

Most McDonalds employees, and other major fast food places, have decent customer service from my experience. The one closest to my home (2 miles... ish...) has some excellent customer service from the point of view of the courteousness of staff.

It's amazing that anybody would defend a company making massive profit at the expense of it's staff. They might be "unskilled", but they are pretty indispensable for the company overall.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

McEmployees knew what they job paid when they took it. To demand 2x as much money for the same job is ludicrous. Even 10% raises are pretty hefty compared to other markets.

What a spoiled life you must live in fantasy land. Seriously, "they knew what it paid when they took it." As if there were jobs growing on trees these days. Have you looked at unemployment statistics. The real ones, not the sanitized ones that discount people who "stopped looking". Maybe, people are taking these jobs because making $7/hour is better than making $0/hour. And maybe they have a right to ask for a living wage for a day's work. Maybe if good jobs weren't being offshored, with corporate tax breaks for doing so, McJobs wouldn't be the only left on-shore. The way you speak, from on-high, makes it seem like you're ignoring the fact that a whole lot of McJob holders have gone to college, have gotten better training, and that there simply aren't jobs that require that training available.

If a job is worth hiring someone to do, it's worth paying them enough for them to live. This is just pragmatism. Because if someone is working full-time for you, and still not making enough to survive, then the taxpayers are forced to pick up the bill.

Except McJobs are virtually NEVER full time.I've worked minimum wage jobs back when I was younger. The work was generally easy and boring, and I didn't care enough about it to let those jobs stress me out. I performed just well enough to not get fired, while knowing that moving up the chain was not worth sticking it out at that low of pay for 10 years. And when I got married, I busted my ass to get a better paying job, and low and behold I found one. I had to compete for it, I had to work hard at it, and it stressed me out plenty, but I understood what was needed to get by. Now sure, in plenty of places those jobs may not be around, and moving out of the area may not be an option. And for those people I do have at least some sympathy.

But this is capitalism, and you can't say to a company "I want this job for $1500/mo" when the next person competing for that same job is ok with $1000/mo.

Sure, if EVERYONE refused to work at Wal Mart and McDonalds for $7/hr, those companies would be forced to up the pay. But for every person complaining about $7/hr there is some kid or(not that I'm saying this is a solution) some migrant worker who is willing to do it for whatever they can get.

It is depressing as gak to see adults working at McDonalds, but ask any adult working there how many applications they've put in this week for a better job, and the results are likely zero.

Now yes, you are right that plenty of people went to college and have to work McJobs. So the point of the thread remains, did they really need college to begin with? Did they chose fields that are over saturated with unemployed people of similar skill?

Now it doesn't help that we've pushed retirement ages all the way up to 65(which is a whole other discussion) so let's keep in mind that a lot of jobs aren't missing, they're being held onto because people can't retire for 10 more years than they were told they could their whole lives. So yeah, that corporate position isn't available because Larry has to keep at it for another 5 years in order to retire, and old people seem to be living longer and longer these days and Lord knows they Govt doesn't pay what they were told it would so they have to keep working.

It is a damn shame if a college graduate has to work minimum wage, but that is sadly the state of the country. It is more sad when I have to pass on them for part time work because they have no actual experience with the field I'm hiring for. I've passed up a lot of people I've interviewed because I knew they were overqualified and would still be looking for a better paying gig, meaning it would have been a waste of my company's time and money to train them only to see them leave a few months down the road. Luckily, most of my employees have been with us since my department started a year ago, and the turnaround has been low. When the company grows, I get to hire more, but I have to take into consideration who I hire and if they intend on keeping the job long enough to validate the cost of training them.

And I'm far from spoiled. With 2 kids and a wife and living where I live, I barely make enough for us to get by. Call me spoiled after I've moved next year to a state where renting a 2 bed condo doesn't cost $1600/mo. I can't wait for that change.

Do I agree with McDonalds paying what they pay? I'll answer by saying I'd never work there. But I wouldn't eat there either, I'd rather they went away altogether. And I've shown that fast food can still be wildly successful while still paying VERY livable wages to it's employees without costing the customer money or quality.

There is no easy fix. If McDonalds decides to pay $15/hr, then we could assume prices would double at the very least to compensate for it. So now McDonalds is too expensive for their target customers(lower income) which means they have to close stores and cut hours. So now a few people make better money, a bunch lose their jobs, and it continues until they are all closed unless the company vastly changes their quality and brand(which just isn't gonna happen).

Vote with your wallet. If you don't like the way a company does things, don't shop there. I don't eat McDonalds, I don't go to Wal Mart. I very much prefer to spend my money at places that have good quality, reasonable prices, and who have a positive impact on the community and it's customers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Can we stop saying McJob?

Most McDonalds employees, and other major fast food places, have decent customer service from my experience. The one closest to my home (2 miles... ish...) has some excellent customer service from the point of view of the courteousness of staff.

It's amazing that anybody would defend a company making massive profit at the expense of it's staff. They might be "unskilled", but they are pretty indispensable for the company overall.

Also, I'm very much not in defense of McDonalds. They are a terrible company and I wish they'd go away. There are plenty of far better options out there, but 99% of the time it is a local brand only(which I'm fine with).

I do love me some Steak and Shake, but we don't have them here in CA(along with legal weed, reasonable housing costs and a split electoral vote).

College is not for everyone. Some jobs are not for everyone. I actually have some college but I am a Union Ironworker ( One of those crazed maniacs that can walk on a piece of 2" wide steel 180 feet in the air with nothing to tie off to) and am very happy with my choice. Will I ever be a millionaire? Nope. I make about $80,000 a year doing a job that takes a special skill.

I explain to people what it is that I do and they look at me like I am friggin nuts. Is it cold this time of year? Indeed. Does it suck sometimes having to work in the rain when a truck MUST be unloaded? It does. Does it have it's benefits? Hell yeah. A doctor makes more money than I do, as does a CEO from a large company. I, however, have a very distinct advantage in some areas though. When my boss is an idiot and wants to do something that is borderline ignorant, I can tell him about it. I can literally MF the guy up one side and down the other and it is accepted. We work hard and we play hard.

I have actually worked for Fortune 500 companies prior to my current job, and I can tell you this. I have never, in my life, seen so many drugs (read as coke, pot, meth, shrooms, etc) as I have when I worked for them. It did not take me long to figure out that I was not cut out for Corporate America.

My only problem with the way our current education system works is in my limited interaction with engineers. I am quite adept at reading blueprints and figuring out how to put steel structures together ... I mean ... it is really just a large erector set that each piece weighs about 1,200 to 3,000 pounds. Some of the engineers have a problem with thinking 3 dimensionally and cannot get it through their heads that just because it is on a print does NOT mean that it will work in reality.

I actually kinda feel bad for this next generation of kids coming up as it has been beat into their heads that you MUST go to college to make any money and that is just not true. I have friends that have degrees and either can not find a job or are working at places like Best Buy because they can not get a better job anywhere that they can use the college that they spent so much money on. Fairly sad really.

Damn....I think I need to go re-evaluate my life.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:


My only problem with the way our current education system works is in my limited interaction with engineers. I am quite adept at reading blueprints and figuring out how to put steel structures together ... I mean ... it is really just a large erector set that each piece weighs about 1,200 to 3,000 pounds. Some of the engineers have a problem with thinking 3 dimensionally and cannot get it through their heads that just because it is on a print does NOT mean that it will work in reality.

I have had the same problem with Software Engineers. The difference for me being that I am an electronics/computer technician for the army at the moment (and have no desire to continue in that field once I'm out)... We have gotten into discussions in my shop about who make the best engineers. It's quite clear to us that with the way we think, it's quite obvious not many engineers are cut out to do our job; But we've determined that while some-many of us would be good at engineering, it really is too much of a divide to really make a universal statement of "maintainers make better engineers than engineers make maintainers"

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
College is not for everyone. Some jobs are not for everyone. I actually have some college but I am a Union Ironworker ( One of those crazed maniacs that can walk on a piece of 2" wide steel 180 feet in the air with nothing to tie off to) and am very happy with my choice. Will I ever be a millionaire? Nope. I make about $80,000 a year doing a job that takes a special skill.

I explain to people what it is that I do and they look at me like I am friggin nuts. Is it cold this time of year? Indeed. Does it suck sometimes having to work in the rain when a truck MUST be unloaded? It does. Does it have it's benefits? Hell yeah. A doctor makes more money than I do, as does a CEO from a large company. I, however, have a very distinct advantage in some areas though. When my boss is an idiot and wants to do something that is borderline ignorant, I can tell him about it. I can literally MF the guy up one side and down the other and it is accepted. We work hard and we play hard.

I have actually worked for Fortune 500 companies prior to my current job, and I can tell you this. I have never, in my life, seen so many drugs (read as coke, pot, meth, shrooms, etc) as I have when I worked for them. It did not take me long to figure out that I was not cut out for Corporate America.

My only problem with the way our current education system works is in my limited interaction with engineers. I am quite adept at reading blueprints and figuring out how to put steel structures together ... I mean ... it is really just a large erector set that each piece weighs about 1,200 to 3,000 pounds. Some of the engineers have a problem with thinking 3 dimensionally and cannot get it through their heads that just because it is on a print does NOT mean that it will work in reality.

I actually kinda feel bad for this next generation of kids coming up as it has been beat into their heads that you MUST go to college to make any money and that is just not true. I have friends that have degrees and either can not find a job or are working at places like Best Buy because they can not get a better job anywhere that they can use the college that they spent so much money on. Fairly sad really.

A fine example of a career where college isn't needed, and practical skill and experience are what will get you earning decent money. Sure it limits your earning potential, but 80k is a hell of a lot more than I make, for skills I don't have.

We can't all be doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists... Someone has to build our houses, and grow our food. I know how to do none of these things, so I stick to what I know, which is contents insurance evaluation. Is it glorious? No. Is it limitless earning potential? No. Is it better than every minimum wage job I've worked? Very much so.

I didn't dream of going into insurance as a kid. I wanted to go into practical effects. And just as I got to the age to move in that direction, CGI showed up and by and large crippled a large chunk of the industry I wanted to be in. So instead I spent 10 years trying my hand at different jobs until I found one I was good at, and that I could excel at. McDonalds should never be that choice for someone, unless they are opening their own store(at which point there are so many better franchise options).

 Aerethan wrote:

Except McJobs are virtually NEVER full time.

McDonald's jobs may not be. Walmart jobs sure are. Other retail wage slaves are.

But this is capitalism, and you can't say to a company "I want this job for $1500/mo" when the next person competing for that same job is ok with $1000/mo.

This is capitalism gone awry. It was still capitalism in 1968, when minimum wage was roughly $10/hour in today's dollars. Capitalism doesn't mean no oversight. Capitalism can still be capitalism without the laisses-faire approach. The economy didn't spontaneously combust in 1968 because minimum wage was too high. What's happened is that the government is bought and paid for by the corporations, and that's why minimum wage isn't keeping pace with inflation. Given that minimum wage, even at 1968 levels, is still a fairly low wage, when it drops below the poverty line, the government steps in with hand-outs in order to stop people starving to death. Rather than pay their employees, the corporation pockets the money and the tax payers subsidize the corporation's payroll.

This is a blatant redistribution of wealth from the poorest and least able in the society to the wealthiest. But the wealthy ones are the ones calling the shots so it continues.

Do I agree with McDonalds paying what they pay? I'll answer by saying I'd never work there. But I wouldn't eat there either, I'd rather they went away altogether. And I've shown that fast food can still be wildly successful while still paying VERY livable wages to it's employees without costing the customer money or quality.

There is no easy fix. If McDonalds decides to pay $15/hr, then we could assume prices would double at the very least to compensate for it. So now McDonalds is too expensive for their target customers(lower income) which means they have to close stores and cut hours. So now a few people make better money, a bunch lose their jobs, and it continues until they are all closed unless the company vastly changes their quality and brand(which just isn't gonna happen).

This is not true. If minimum wage were raised to $15/hour, McDonalds prices would likely go up, but very very slightly. McDonalds is in a very price-competitive market, they cannot just raise their prices, even if their labour cost increases, because people will go elsewhere. As it is, I work in downtown Chicago and can get a better burger at any number of sit-down restaurants for $10, and these places wouldn't be impacted by the minimum wage rise as they're already paying their employees more (especially if you include tips). McDonald's cannot raise their prices to that level. What would happen is that they might see their annual profits dip a little. This wouldn't actually be the worst thing in the world.

Instead, what would happen is that the economy would start moving again. Some prices might go up, but all wages would go up because trade would increase in general. Far smarter economists than me have all written articles about this. The number one drag on our economy right now is that the wealth is consolidated in the hands of a small few, who don't spend it.

I agree with you that this is not how capitalism is supposed to work.

I also agree that far too much wealth is held by far too few.

But the people in position to change policy don't because they are paid better to leave things alone or make them worse for the public. And we as a nation let it happen. We allow career congressmen to run forever. We allow them to pay themselves whatever they want, and to ignore rules they rest of us have to obey.

McDonalds would never put the nations economy ahead of their shareholders. Nor would Wal Mart. They will continue to serve the interest of profit above all else. They don't care about making the country great. They don't care if the country is crap. As long as they make money, then all is well to them.

Oddly enough, at my company profit is not the priority. It's not mentioned in our mission statement, and it's not enough to keep people's jobs should they act against said mission statement. I've seen people fired for overcharging companies for products where all the rep cared about was their commission. I've seen people fired for creating a terrible experience for a policy holder despite their profit history and performance.

But then we are also a privately held company. The stock market I fear does not work as it was intended to. I always thought of it as a way to invest into a company in hopes of profiting off it's success that resulted from my investment.

Wal Mart is hardly in need of investors. It makes no sense for companies to be publicly traded if they don't need investments. That the stock market can destroy a company regardless of it's products and services is stupid.

Perhaps I'm not educated enough on that front, but it all seems very broken to me. I am just doing my best to work within the system we've got to provide for my family and my self, and I encourage anyone working minimum wage to put effort into getting better work, whether that means going to school or taking an apprenticeship learning a proper tradeskill.

I am by no stretch of the imagination any kind of a fiscal genius, having said that, I really believe that one of the biggest problems that America faces is corporate greed. In the 50's and 60's if a company made 3 or even 4 percent profit ... they were doing great. This started to change in the late 60's early 70's. Now, if a company is not making 300% profit then they are going bankrupt.

There are many things that play into that but from my limited view I see it this way: Due to the litigious nature that has become the American Corporate landscape they have to make this kind of profit because you never know when you are going to get sued over something as trivial as 'Hot Coffee' or 'Slippery Floors' even though you put ample warning signs EVERYWHERE.

Education is not a bad thing, however, just because you have a college degree does not mean you are the smartest person in the room. Sadly, this is how most of the people think that I have dealt with that have a degree. This is a prime example. I was working at General Electric and we had a site wide meeting about FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act). The Site coordinator (Head guy at the facility) was telling us that the facility had lost a million dollars in the previous year at this site. The way he was explaining it was leading people to believe that the company had shown no profit at all, but in fact was in the red.

You must understand this about me first and foremost ... if I think something is BS ... I say so. At the end he asked if there were any questions. I raise my hand. "Did the site, after you paid everyone's salary, paid for the electricity, paid for the computers, paid for every conceivable bill it takes to run this place, did the site make a dollar's profit?"

He him hawed around saying that there was this and that to consider, that there were expenses that we were not aware of and that FMLA had really put the site in a bind driving us to the negative.

I replied that I did not ask about hidden expenses or other considerations, but after ALL of the expenses considered, did the site make a dollar's profit. He verified that it did.

"Then you did not lose a million dollars, you just did not make what you wanted to make." That was the beginning of the end for my GE career.

The thing I am trying to convey about this little interaction that I had is that college can be a good thing, but keep yourself humble and you will do well after you get your degree. I

 Redbeard wrote:


What a spoiled life you must live in fantasy land. Seriously, "they knew what it paid when they took it." As if there were jobs growing on trees these days. Have you looked at unemployment statistics. The real ones, not the sanitized ones that discount people who "stopped looking". Maybe, people are taking these jobs because making $7/hour is better than making $0/hour. And maybe they have a right to ask for a living wage for a day's work. Maybe if good jobs weren't being offshored, with corporate tax breaks for doing so, McJobs wouldn't be the only left on-shore. The way you speak, from on-high, makes it seem like you're ignoring the fact that a whole lot of McJob holders have gone to college, have gotten better training, and that there simply aren't jobs that require that training available.

If a job is worth hiring someone to do, it's worth paying them enough for them to live. This is just pragmatism. Because if someone is working full-time for you, and still not making enough to survive, then the taxpayers are forced to pick up the bill.

It took me 2 weeks when I got laid off from my teaching job in 2009 to find a decent paying part time job on a FedEx loading dock to supplement substitute teaching. They exist. They're not hard to get. And they're not intended to raise a family on. I had to work two jobs to be able to pay all my bills, and while it was hard, it's what I had to do to ensure my gak was taken care of.

I have little to no sympathy for someone that thinks they should be able to support a family on a fast food job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Medium of Death wrote:
.

It's amazing that anybody would defend a company making massive profit at the expense of it's staff. They might be "unskilled", but they are pretty indispensable for the company overall.

You're fooling yourself if you really believe that. A McDonald fry cook or cashier is the epitome of dispensable.

I will add smething, to those that say the mcdonalds are kids jobs....they are not, they ask for you if you can work at any hours, which students, especially under 18, cannot do. Infact most food places ask that.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I will add smething, to those that say the mcdonalds are kids jobs....they are not, they ask for you if you can work at any hours, which students, especially under 18, cannot do. Infact most food places ask that.

And yet, plenty of high school kids still figure out how to work restaurant jobs and stay in school at the same time.

Yeah, but not fast food, mostly starbucks here. And Small Businesses. Over here Small Businesses are the biggest employers for students.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, but not fast food, mostly starbucks here. And Small Businesses. Over here Small Businesses are the biggest employers for students.

When I was in high school plenty of my fellow classmates worked at McDonald's or Burger King, and there are still plenty of high school aged kids working at those same places. I don't think it's really the norm to not have younger employees working at fast food places.

Check out the book The Real Crash by Peter Schiff. There is a good chapter on education. Unfortunately, I think we have been fed a lie on education, which has resulted in a generation who graduate from college, with very real and sizable debts, and whose job prospects may not be that different from what they could have gotten straight out of high school. In addition, the student loan debt will be a very real anchor on anything else you do later.

 Ifurita wrote:
Check out the book The Real Crash by Peter Schiff. There is a good chapter on education. Unfortunately, I think we have been fed a lie on education, which has resulted in a generation who graduate from college, with very real and sizable debts, and whose job prospects may not be that different from what they could have gotten straight out of high school. In addition, the student loan debt will be a very real anchor on anything else you do later.

Yup. It's a great read. Student lending is far more questionable than any sub prime mortgage lending has ever been.

"This is not true. If minimum wage were raised to $15/hour, McDonalds prices would likely go up, but very very slightly. "

No. Wrong.

ALL prices would go up. Not only would every minimum wage job pay twice as much, but the prices would be raised to accommodate the increased payroll. You certainly don't think the CEOs are going to take a pay cut do you?

Also, once everyone is earning more, prices will be raised, even in areas that do not have to increase payroll. Why you might ask? Well, there is more money rolling around out there so companies can charge more.

...and that children is called inflation.

cincydooley wrote:
It took me 2 weeks when I got laid off from my teaching job in 2009 to find a decent paying part time job on a FedEx loading dock to supplement substitute teaching. They exist.

Wow. So, explain to me exactly why working a loading dock is more valuable or requires more skill than working a fryer? Are you really suggesting that a loading dock job (which, I've never had, but I can't imagine is more brain intensive than lifting boxes and possibly scanning bar codes) has more value for society than preparing someone's food or handling their customer service needs?

See, I'm not trying to put down the loading dock job, I firmly believe that any honest job has value. I'm just wondering why you're suggesting that fast food is somehow inferior to the loading dock.

 Redbeard wrote:

cincydooley wrote:
It took me 2 weeks when I got laid off from my teaching job in 2009 to find a decent paying part time job on a FedEx loading dock to supplement substitute teaching. They exist.

Wow. So, explain to me exactly why working a loading dock is more valuable or requires more skill than working a fryer? Are you really suggesting that a loading dock job (which, I've never had, but I can't imagine is more brain intensive than lifting boxes and possibly scanning bar codes) has more value for society than preparing someone's food or handling their customer service needs?

See, I'm not trying to put down the loading dock job, I firmly believe that any honest job has value. I'm just wondering why you're suggesting that fast food is somehow inferior to the loading dock.

Did I ever suggest it did? Nope. My point was that I was able to find better paying part time work easily and quickly.

I would, however, that the outdoor working conditions in sub freezing temperatures and the necessity to acquire certification with a forklift would make it more difficult than working a fryer, which I have also done while I was in college.

I disagree, I am often unloading in the cold, and Then I work into the fryer, witch is inhumanely hot.

College is absolutely not necessary. Hard work and the will to learn is all one needs. Too many people assume college is a stepping stone to some great career. It can be, but that path is for a set collection of occupations that require college to gain entry.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, I am often unloading in the cold, and Then I work into the fryer, witch is inhumanely hot.

I'll tell you right now you're wrong. Having done both, they don't compare. Working a 6-8 hour shift entirely outdoors is much more physically demanding then occasionally unloading something outside and then working in a warm kitchen. I'll also note that the dock, in the middle if August, was much hotter than any Line I've ever worked on.

Ok, but you where saying earlier the fast food workers do not deserve a special wage because their job is not hard and does not require more then a few hours worth of training? Well I work loading boxes in a large, hot kitchen(Kitchens do get extremely hot, dry hot too, do not think they are "Warm") and that is hard, wo where is my extra pay?