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Just looking to start a general thread discussing peoples' ideas on making terminators a decent choice again.

As anyone who has played terminators in this edition knows, they are currently over-costed, put out little firepower, suffer terribly from not having sweeping advance and are often left at home due to other more efficient picks
So how could we make them a good pick once again? Would a simple points drop be enough?

As someone with a DW army, I believe terminators are worth much closer to 35 points a model, rather than 44. (Even matching the SM price tag would be a nice buff for DA).

How would people feel to terminators being allowed to take their invulnerable save AND their armour save, like ward saves in fantasy. So if they fail their 2+, then they may attempt to pass again on their 5+ (Storm shields should probably be excluded from this).

Blood angels can give them FNP which is fairly similar to your idea.. the problem with terminators as ALWAYS been their delivery system. As with all the bad assault units they lack speed and reliability.

All good assault units either move 12", ignore cover when charging or re-roll charge range (or are all 3 cause they are beasts/cav)

Terminators have NONE of those so they really need atleast 1 to be viable.. or all 3 somehow.

Also, the problem with terminator firepower is strictly based on GW"s inability to understand that storm bolters suck as do most bolt weapons. Cant fix terminators unless storm bolters are improved (which they never will be as GW thinks that two bolters together should have some firepower as one bolter?)

I would simply improve them by improving the choices that Tac Terminators can take; allow them to mix their weapons like Chaos Terminators, giving them Combi-Weapons, different Power Weapons and even access to Special Issue Ammunition.

Simple. Make terminator armour 1+, rolled as 3+ on two dice. Ap 1 still penetrates it but it shouldn't be so easy to lasgun them to death.

And more importantly you'd need a chainfist to kill them in close combat.

xruslanx wrote:
Simple. Make terminator armour 1+, rolled as 3+ on two dice. Ap 1 still penetrates it but it shouldn't be so easy to lasgun them to death.

And more importantly you'd need a chainfist to kill them in close combat.

Im not sure about having terminators unable to deal with other terminators efficiently. Perhaps a 1+ save on the two dice as you said, but allow it to still be beaten by ap2, that way power axes still have some use against them.

Blood angels can give them FNP which is fairly similar to your idea

And DA can give them FNP though their banner, but both would be better, 2+/5+/5+ would let them weather much more small arms fire.

Would it break fluff to allow all tac terminators to get an apothecary? I'm not sure how many there are supposed to be per chapter.

Or maybe just do that 3+ on 2D6 thing, but make AP2 turn it to a 7+ or so.

Points reduction if necessary, not too enthusiastic about additional special rules...

Nothing major- let them run after a deepstrike and still shoot.

Reduction in point.
Movement/Assault after DS, this way they just scream "SHOOT ME!"

I would agree with Kirasu, storm bolters need to be improved. However, i dont think that will be enough. 3 shot storm bolters still arent effective enough to put shooty terminators in the game. What they need are more mid-strength heavy weapons. Currently terminators are 1/5 as-cannons/HF. Give them 1/5 as-cannons (+10pts) and 2/5 HB/HF (+5 pts) and you have a unit that can actually shoot something. Heavy bolters are pretty much useless on all delivery platforms in the game due to their ability to be replaced with something better in every case. Here that would not be the case. AP4 shooting is now something of a desired commodity due to tau/eldar releases, so quantity of AP4 would actually put these guys into a position to be a good choice. Of course, price reductions are probably also needed on the actual models since 2+ armor isnt even being called very good at 31 points is CSM.

For assault terminators, i think good old points cost reduction (along with a standardized 5 ppm for TH/SS upgrade to facilitate even cheaper base cost) would do the trick. If you were paying 300-330 points for that 10 man terminator squad it would seem quite a bit more reasonable.

 zephoid wrote:
I would agree with Kirasu, storm bolters need to be improved. However, i dont think that will be enough. 3 shot storm bolters still arent effective enough to put shooty terminators in the game. What they need are more mid-strength heavy weapons. Currently terminators are 1/5 as-cannons/HF. Give them 1/5 as-cannons (+10pts) and 2/5 HB/HF (+5 pts) and you have a unit that can actually shoot something. Heavy bolters are pretty much useless on all delivery platforms in the game due to their ability to be replaced with something better in every case. Here that would not be the case. AP4 shooting is now something of a desired commodity due to tau/eldar releases, so quantity of AP4 would actually put these guys into a position to be a good choice. Of course, price reductions are probably also needed on the actual models since 2+ armor isnt even being called very good at 31 points is CSM.

For assault terminators, i think good old points cost reduction (along with a standardized 5 ppm for TH/SS upgrade to facilitate even cheaper base cost) would do the trick. If you were paying 300-330 points for that 10 man terminator squad it would seem quite a bit more reasonable.

Grey Knights stand in the way of improving storm bolters. Since they have ridiculously given every single knight his own little storm, and can up the Str by one to boot.
Make them too good and GK becomes an absolute powerhouse, just short of Tau in the shooting phase with a much too solid cc phase.

Points reduction or bring back armor mods and give them back their 3+ on 2d6 save.

Since when were GK considered a top army in 6th? GK were never strong because of S5 shooting, they were strong because of psycannons everywhere combined with force weapons in an edition that had more melee elements (meaning they were able to out-shoot melee and out-melee shooting). Now that the game has shifted to much more shooting, GK's melee ability is much less useful, leaving them in an awkward position. If the bolter banner from DA is any indication, quantity of bolter fire almost cant be OP. There is almost no way to put out enough S4-5 shots to be able to deal with the things in the game that are problematic. Sure you can kill orks or gaunts, but they already do that.

People have talked about giving imperial terminators combi-weapons, would it be too far to give them the option of taking special weapons? Maybe not all squad members, but certainly around 3 or so specials + a heavy weapon. This way they could be equipped to fulfill different specific roles, instead of the same generic role + heavy weapon as we have now.

They would be balanced through their high points cost.

As I've said before; To fix terminators, give them +1 Toughness and then +1 attack, let them buy 1 special and 1 heavy per 5 termies at normal costs. Leave points alone, and you're good.

I think their major flaw is how worthless a 2+ save can often be. They need to be more durable then they are now.

Perhaps give them re-rolls on their 5++? That way they are still resilient to ap3 and higher while not so easily killed off by ap1 and 2.

 zephoid wrote:
Since when were GK considered a top army in 6th?

Didn't claim they ever were.

 zephoid wrote:
GK were never strong because of S5 shooting, they were strong because of psycannons everywhere combined with force weapons in an edition that had more melee elements (meaning they were able to out-shoot melee and out-melee shooting).

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

 zephoid wrote:
Now that the game has shifted to much more shooting, GK's melee ability is much less useful, leaving them in an awkward position. If the bolter banner from DA is any indication, quantity of bolter fire almost cant be OP. There is almost no way to put out enough S4-5 shots to be able to deal with the things in the game that are problematic. Sure you can kill orks or gaunts, but they already do that.

And that has absolutely no bearing on the situation where storm bolters get an unspecified buff.

So, you managed to completely miss my point and then get into a fuss about it. Fantastic job.

Point: IF storm bolters gained a buff, it would need to be too slight to make much of a difference, because if it was a big enough buff to make a difference for a few terminators, it would be an enormous buff to GK.
Were the bolters why they were OP when they were? Nope. Not at all. But it could be if the bolters gained a large buff to make terminators a ranged threat.

Ok, lets go deeper into what they should be buffed to then. Since they are 2x bolters, 2 shots rapid fire? Seems interesting, but that means you couldnt assault after firing, making their dual use less present. Salvo same thing. Therefore, assault his to be the rule of choice for firing. Assault 4 seems excessive, but assault 3 seems fine.

Now would GK basic troops be better with 1 more shot? Sure. Enough to warrant actually playing? Maybe. OP? Not even close. As i was saying, you almost cant make S4-5 firing have enough shots to be a threat to the 'big hitters' of the game. once you hit S6 you can start getting somewhere, but even then you need exorbitant number of shots to do anything (Even 4th eldar war walkers were only above average with 24 S6 TL shots)

 zephoid wrote:
Ok, lets go deeper into what they should be buffed to then. Since they are 2x bolters, 2 shots rapid fire? Seems interesting, but that means you couldnt assault after firing, making their dual use less present. Salvo same thing. Therefore, assault his to be the rule of choice for firing. Assault 4 seems excessive, but assault 3 seems fine.

They're terminators, weapon type does not matter as they have relentless.

My opinion give them T5 that would help against small arms fire. Perhaps the option to have power weapons instead of fists

T5, another wound and more options when it comes to weaponry. Maybe a points reduction would help too.

 FirePainter wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Ok, lets go deeper into what they should be buffed to then. Since they are 2x bolters, 2 shots rapid fire? Seems interesting, but that means you couldnt assault after firing, making their dual use less present. Salvo same thing. Therefore, assault his to be the rule of choice for firing. Assault 4 seems excessive, but assault 3 seems fine.

They're terminators, weapon type does not matter as they have relentless.

My opinion give them T5 that would help against small arms fire. Perhaps the option to have power weapons instead of fists

T5 would make sense in the fact that they are supposed to be a walking tank.

The best thing to happen that would make TDA useful again is to change most AP2 range weapons to AP3, specifically Plasma. Or allow their 2+ save to be used on any ranged attack that is not AP1. In melee, their 5++ save is fine versus AP2.

As that won't happen, an across the board 5pt reduction in price would make them more competitive.

SJ

Lower their points cost. If not you'd have to them some survivability increase like +1T or an extra wound alongside the 2+ save and invuln. as right now the armour in and of itself does not provide enough protection in the current meta with massed AP2 weaponry flying out the wazoo. Of course not both at the same time but I think the +1T or +1W would go a long way in making terminator armour a viable option for commander choices instead of the typical artificer+bike combo that is so prevalent in vanilla lists nowadays.

For shooty terminators, would making storm bolters salvo 2/4 be a viable change (by extension CSM combi-bolters would remain twin-linked but be Salvo 2/3)? This way relentless actually plays a role for the guys without a heavy weapon.

Anything else should be based around the army they are in with chapter tactics, marks of chaos, Deathwing rules, etc being the thing that determines if they are more inclined towards shooting or close combat.

 zephoid wrote:
Ok, lets go deeper into what they should be buffed to then. Since they are 2x bolters, 2 shots rapid fire? Seems interesting, but that means you couldnt assault after firing, making their dual use less present. Salvo same thing. Therefore, assault his to be the rule of choice for firing. Assault 4 seems excessive, but assault 3 seems fine.

Now would GK basic troops be better with 1 more shot? Sure. Enough to warrant actually playing? Maybe. OP? Not even close. As i was saying, you almost cant make S4-5 firing have enough shots to be a threat to the 'big hitters' of the game. once you hit S6 you can start getting somewhere, but even then you need exorbitant number of shots to do anything (Even 4th eldar war walkers were only above average with 24 S6 TL shots)

And 1 more shot would do next to nothing at all for terminators, so clearly stormers aren't the way to go to buff termies.
Any buff large enough to make any difference to a terminator is gonna be twice as big for the power armour knights. And GK doesn't need MORE reason to choose power armour over terminator.

Trying to improve termies by buffing any one aspect of them isn't going to be enough, unless you make that change a ridiculous one. And changing the profile of a weapon like the stormbolter is probably a non-starter as it's shared across other units and armies. I also think switching up their weapon options should be avoided. Terminators have had the same weapon options for like 20+ years now, I'd rather make iconic stormbolter terminators worth having instead of making them a melta termicide unit.

So I propose some tweaks across the board:
- slight points drop
- Terminator armor saves can be re-rolled against hits from AP5 or worse weapons (even the weak points aren't that weak)
- Devastating Volley - stormbolters and assault cannons can fire twice in one turn; stormbolters can't fire next turn and the assault cannon can't fire next turn if it rolled more than one 6 to hit
- Sergeant's power sword gives +1 Inv save in close combat just like a Nemesis force sword

I would definitely take my old-school tactical termies again if i figured they would at least get one really good round of shooting and weren't going to get taken out by weight of fire/attacks immediately.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
T5, another wound and more options when it comes to weaponry. Maybe a points reduction would help too.

Grimskul wrote: survivability increase like +1T or an extra wound alongside the 2+ save

Space marines already have that they are called centurions.

Pity that thanks to GK, you can't fix them by adjusting their ranged fire.

Though that still wouldn't fix CSM's the same way.

Make Relentless USR allow Shoot + Charge in the same turn & allow assault in the turn they arrive from Deep Strike.

Currently, Shooti is dominant in all respects to the great game, and simply getting into melee with most armies, is a miracle... Current Melee is at a loss for methods of getting into combat that don't involve massive point sinks into DTs like Land Raiders. If units like Terminators of all variants were allowed to charge on the turn they arrived by Deepstrike, it would alleviate the need to sink something like ~240 points in Land Raider Transports simply to make them effective.

Make terminators 28 points for shooty ones, 32 for thunder hammer versions.

Or go back to the 2 typhoon launchers or 2 assault cannons per 5 dudes. A missile devastator squad with 2+/5++ would be worth it with all the helldrakes flying around.

Too bad any hope for positive change was thrown away recently, and they will suck for years to come.

Leave the points as they are, give basic terminators a 4++ and make terminator stormbolters Assault 4. This makes them more durable against AP2, still makes them vulnerable to mass small arms fire (they do need some form of counter-balance), and allows a 5-man squad to lay down a crap ton of fire (sort of how their fluff always depicts them)

For the assault variety, let TH/SS assault termies count their shield as an additional specialist CCW (Shield Bash-S User, AP4, Concussion). Lightning Claw termies keep the 4++.