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 novaspike wrote:

That's not always normal of Cygnar overall, but if you're playing a gunline cracking armor (usually) can be tough.

Once you've made the mistake of leaving a heavy near Max + UA dual CRA'ing Longgunners, you're wary of letting it happen again. Gunline Cygnar deals just fine with Armor cracking in my experiences.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Cygnar have a huge amount of models that can greatly improve the rest of the army [ATGM officers for example]

Oh and Boomhowler is overrated IMO, Murdoch+ Nyss hunters is better.

A relatively cheap unit with 4+ tough that makes for an excellent screen and tarpit is overrated?

Okay then, moving along....

That's cute, because With Murdoch Nyss can move with free rein due to Pathfinder to make surprise assault that will kill light infantry [and also some heavier targets from CRA], and AS can make them just a tough as Boomhowler.

Besides the models are better.

 sing your life wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Cygnar have a huge amount of models that can greatly improve the rest of the army [ATGM officers for example]

Oh and Boomhowler is overrated IMO, Murdoch+ Nyss hunters is better.

A relatively cheap unit with 4+ tough that makes for an excellent screen and tarpit is overrated?

Okay then, moving along....

That's cute, because With Murdoch Nyss can move with free rein due to Pathfinder to make surprise assault that will kill light infantry [and also some heavier targets from CRA], and AS can make them just a tough as Boomhowler.

Besides the models are better.

But small bases don't screen my 'Jacks...

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Cygnar have a huge amount of models that can greatly improve the rest of the army [ATGM officers for example]

Oh and Boomhowler is overrated IMO, Murdoch+ Nyss hunters is better.

A relatively cheap unit with 4+ tough that makes for an excellent screen and tarpit is overrated?

Okay then, moving along....

That's cute, because With Murdoch Nyss can move with free rein due to Pathfinder to make surprise assault that will kill light infantry [and also some heavier targets from CRA], and AS can make them just a tough as Boomhowler.

Besides the models are better.

But small bases don't screen my 'Jacks...

I do have to admit that admit that boomholwer is better if Murdoch isn't available.

As a Cygnar player I might offer a slightly different view on the play style since there is a lot of established consensus on what isn’t worth the points, what is commonly used and this that or the other. I think I am one of the very few who can make Trencher Commandos worth their points.

Most of you have it right that Cygnar does play weird as compared to the other Warmachine factions since they have a utilitarian style army that could be treated as one big tool box. There are a lot of tricks and consistency with casters but I think the real beauty of Cygnar is its flexibility. One thing many notice is the lack of heavy infantry with 8 damage boxes in its infantry choices and a crowded inventory of PoW 10 ranged weapons and 9 point warjacks. There are easy and cost effective ways around these minor setbacks. If anything Cygnar has the most powerful situtational army lists in Warmachine IMO.

Cygnar has a lack of raw damage output from range and some limitations that takes away from some really would-be nasty warjack and unit selections. Such as the Stormclad in MkI that make Stormknights fearless as an example. Then there are the few warjacks being very focus hungry like the Charger versus some considerably focus efficient like the Cyclone IMO. Cygnar seems it wants to be a defensive faction but really I think it can be played just as good defensively and offensively depending on the caster and overall army list with it. Cygnar has ranged attack buffing capabilities out the ying-yang while on the other hand there is a lack of models with pathfinder and fearless in the Cygnar inventory to make it really fearsome.

Some may scoff at this concept of playing Cygnar as a warjack oriented faction. Some see Cygnar warjacks as too expensive and this is true for a few warjacks although I’m sure if anyone can look at the overall capability of the warjack versus purely a stat on stat basis they do work for their points in a way. What helps me more than anything is I treat my warjacks as tanks to take out the other warjacks and my infantry supports them like any normal mechanized army would. I could go on but that’s the gist of my take on Cygnar’s play style as a highly versatile jack oriented, flexible utilitarian ranged combat army.

Cygnar can be jack oriented. They, arguably, have some of the best jack marshalls in the game along with some good casters. And for now the only Jr. Warcaster.

As for fearless, while it is handy in that it let's you ignore a few things, it rarely comes into play. They do tend to have good leadership and plenty of officers and such as well. But even without this stuff I rarely see units break and run away. They tend to be pretty much dead by that point.

With all that food for thought, I've come up with some conclusions that agree with many of your opinions as a group.

Cygnar are THE toolbox faction. There isn't a set cookie cutter list for them as such. They have certain solos that work very well with their casters and some unit/weapon attachments work incredibly well together.

Their casters tend to be based more towards supporting their forces, rather than being the beatsticks of Khador or Trolls that I am used to (Caine and Sloan excluded). In return though, units must support the caster by having synergy with the caster and be able to use the spells of them.

With that rationale...

I take it that pStryker can use virtually any Cygnar Jack or Unit as he is so versatile?

Is there a list of must haves?
(I'm asking this one as I'm leaning towards a full unit of Stormblades with all the addons plus Captain as I think they are quite beastly with pStryker and could be ok with Caine).

list of "must haves"
Again, take this with a grain of salt, each caster is different. But these are very popular with a lot of people (i.e. they get talked about a lot and I see a lot of sample lists with them)

Arcane Tempest Gun Mages ATGM w/ UA (Unit attachment is what really makes them good)
Black 13 gun mages
Tempast Blazers gun mages
Squire
Jr Warcaster
Stormwall
Defender

For infantry troops Mercenaries are generally considered "better" and seem more popular
Nyss Archers
Boomhowlers

Other units that tend to be very popular with certain casters/builds
Rangers
Stormclad
Ol' Rowdy
Reinholdt (merc) for the shooting casters (both Caines, Siege, Sloan)
Forgegaurd
Sylys Wyshnalyrr

I like to have some stormsmiths around in case you need a 1 point solo.

Units like Stormblades are good, but need support so are not often an auto-include. You can't just grab them as your frontline troops. But they do have some good synergy with some other units/casters.

And since most people ask eventually, the top Cygnar casters are generally considered to be (in no particular order after Haley) eHaley, eCaine, eStryker and Siege. pHaley and Kraye are probably tier 1.5.

Again, I am giving you the general net opinion. Though for most of the stuff I tend to agree, though as it is popular for a reason. I am also probably missing a couple things and I am sure that others will bring them up.

I have a slightly different take to “must haves” versus what is generally popular in the meta or as the mainstream likes to project. Cygnar has probably the most flexible and dynamic caster builds in all warmachine and second to none for support capabilities.

My “must have” all-rounder models for almost any caster/builds.

Arcane Tempest Gun Mages – This one is a very obvious choice with magic attack, snipe, CRA, critical boost damage do you need more? These are handy even with melee-oriented caster builds such as Styker and Darius.

Rangers – these are my go-to unit to support my ranged assets and more than earn their points worth by being a handy anti-support model assassin unit such as picking off choirs, beast handlers and any squirmy and fragile support model/unit. I use them to harry my opponent’s strong points such as Iron Fangs in shield wall and the like. Only casters they don’t do too well are with Darius and any of the Nemos in my experiences.

Trenchers – I know some more established warmachiners groan about Trenchers being expensive. I rarely take a full unit as a minimum unit does the job with CRA and the ever useful assault order. I can give any level of player and caster a bad day with a unit of these steampunk-esque marines. Not recommended with Darius or Nemos.

Long Gunner – These guys are like trenchers, I do not need a full unit of them to make them dangerous although I use their full unite more often than trenchers in larger games. LGs are awesome in a tandem with trenchers and rangers with a solid gun line. Caster limitations are similar to Trenchers only I get away with them with Nemos thanks to their range.

Journeyman Warcaster + Charger = the dynamic duo – These combination is my best all around choice for any caster and build. Junior supplies the hungry charger with the three focus to become dangerous to hit squirmy models and boosted damage to get likely kill shots. This is my dedicated kill team when the rangers are preoccupied elsewhere.

Centurion – My most favorite jack in the Cygnarian warjack inventory. Immune to charges in its front arc, hits like a ton and can take one hell of a pounding like a Khadorian heavy. Only down side is they’re slow and easy to hit. He does not play well with Caines or with Sloan for obvious reasons. The only better option than Centurion is the Stormclad when the points are there.
Stormclad – See Centurion

Defender – Arguably one of the best non-character warjacks in the game the defender is a must have for its highly versatile platform with any caster. There is at least one defender in all my build lists and even does well with Darius for a ranged warjack.

Hunter – THE best light warjack in the game to being a versatile platform akin to the Defender only smaller and more nimble than its bigger brother. The Hunter is Caine’s best friend and always take a pair of them with any ranged oriented caster and excellent with Kraye. I like these warjacks for their ability to crack through thick armor reliably and focus efficient. They’re Cygnar’s tank destroyers and steampunk style M10 Hellcats.

Minuteman – Ah yes my favorite flee jumper harasser jack is good with any caster. These are insanely effective with Kraye and eHaley. I have at least one in melee-oriented Cygnar caster builds.

Really? You take a Junior and don't make use of AS? Interesting choice. I find Junior and a Centurion often find their way into my eCaine lists, since I like having an ARM24-can't-be-charged warjack toeing into one zone while Caine fires up the minigun and goes to town in the other.

Also, since I've been playing Tanks way too much, its M10 Wolverine or M18 Hellcat. Choose one

What are you guy's thoughts on controlling a stormwall with a journeywoman?

 sing your life wrote:
What are you guy's thoughts on controlling a stormwall with a journeywoman?

Too nervous about leaving it inert if someone lands a lucky shot on such a soft target.

 sing your life wrote:
What are you guy's thoughts on controlling a stormwall with a journeywoman?

Are you going to shoot the massive machine of uttermost death or the squishy 5 Damage ARM14 person that is controlling it. Because the journey caster is not a jack marshall, when he dies the stormwall goes inert rather than autonomous.

For those saying that Cygnar isn't a great 'jack faction, what do you think of Seige's tier list in NQ50?

I'm mentally toying with something like this:

pSeige (+5) p.40

-Triumph (-10) ???
-Defender (-8) p.78
-Sentinal (-3) p.73

ATGMs x6 (-6) p.88
Field Mechs (-2) p.109
Field Mechs (-2) p.109

Journeyman Warcaster (-3) p.113
-Sentinal (-3) p.73
-Charger (-3) p.68

Journeyman Warcaster (-3) p.113
-Sentinal (-3) p.73
-Charger (-3) p.68

B13 (-4) p.110

Arlan Strangeways (-2) p.122

no anti stealth other then the b13 , no tar pit , no ability to choke stuff up. no rangers so hiting maybe a problem , if def is high . No options to melee. no magic weapons from A&H , so menoth walks up to this list without being shot at .


Wait , can he take the b13 at all, doesn't the tier say he can take only gunmages ?

Makumba wrote:

Wait , can he take the b13 at all, doesn't the tier say he can take only gunmages ?

It only says "Gun Mage units". No mention of non-character anywhere. The general consensus appears to be is that you can take them.

but they are an "arcane templest character unit" not a "gunmage character unit".

Makumba wrote:
but they are an "arcane templest character unit" not a "gunmage character unit".

Heh, I've got no stake in this. Just got the above from checking my copy of NQ 50 and a quick search on PP's forums. FWIW most people think you *should* be able to take the Tempest Blazers in it, as they are included in the accompanying fiction piece; which is something PP is wont to do.

Official title is "Black 13th Gun mage Strike Team"
For unit type they are listed as a "Cygnar Arcane Tempest Character Unit"

regular gun mages are listed as "Arcane Tempest Gun Mages" and unit type is "Cygnar Unit".

Blazers are "Tempest Blazers" and listed as a "Cygnar Arcane Tempest light cavalry unit"

So if he is allowed to take gun mages or arcane tempest units then the B13 fit. If it says "arcane tempest gun mages" then that might only be the standard ATGM.

I'm not sure what the NQ says as I do not have it.

motyak wrote:Really? You take a Junior and don't make use of AS? Interesting choice. I find Junior and a Centurion often find their way into my eCaine lists, since I like having an ARM24-can't-be-charged warjack toeing into one zone while Caine fires up the minigun and goes to town in the other.

Also, since I've been playing Tanks way too much, its M10 Wolverine or M18 Hellcat. Choose one

For the life of me I always get those two confused. I don't play World of Tanks but I think its the M18 Hellcat in this instance. As an insult to injury I play an American mechanized company on Flames of War. Go figure.

As for making use of the Arcane Shield I have use it sparingly especially when the Charger's ranged capability has been dminished mainly from a crippled arm or if the Charger is toast and its just the Journeyman I put him to good use since he can't hit the broadside of a barn inside the friggin' barn.

sing your life wrote:What are you guy's thoughts on controlling a stormwall with a journeywoman?

An expensive accident waiting to happen.

 motyak wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
What are you guy's thoughts on controlling a stormwall with a journeywoman?

Too nervous about leaving it inert if someone lands a lucky shot on such a soft target.

How is arm and def 14 and 5 boxes "such a soft target"?

 sing your life wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
What are you guy's thoughts on controlling a stormwall with a journeywoman?

Too nervous about leaving it inert if someone lands a lucky shot on such a soft target.

How is arm and def 14 and 5 boxes "such a soft target"?

Because things like a Defender kill it in one (boosted to hit) shot? Pretty much every "heavy hitter" ranged jack can kill it in one shot, boosting to hit. Not even boosting damage. Vanquisher, Defender, Corrupter, etc. Anything with a POW 14 or so ranged attack is odds on to kill him (with a RAT of 5 or better) with only 1 focus, and then they are trading an 8-9 pt warjack for a 22 pt pair of models. Definitely worth it.

Not to mention CRA shots and high volume of fire from downtown like rifle corps, nyss hunters, and mage hunters.

 sing your life wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
What are you guy's thoughts on controlling a stormwall with a journeywoman?

Too nervous about leaving it inert if someone lands a lucky shot on such a soft target.

How is arm and def 14 and 5 boxes "such a soft target"?

Softer than you like to think even with its overshield ability to give it 17 ARM still a squishy target if you leave it exposed. Then again any model can be a soft target if left exposed but then that's an entirely different debate in of its own. Forget I said anything.

But you would certainly want to hide Jakes [who would be much better at controlling a stormwall than the normal JR] behind the colossal so they're unlikely to be hit with any serious shooting.

 sing your life wrote:
But you would certainly want to hide Jakes [who would be much better at controlling a stormwall than the normal JR] behind the colossal so they're unlikely to be hit with any serious shooting.

But then you're not using them to their full potential as all you're doing is hiding them. All it takes is one lucky scatter from an AOE and/or your opponent to have Taryn di la Rovissi for example and they're a gonner.

 sing your life wrote:
But you would certainly want to hide Jakes [who would be much better at controlling a stormwall than the normal JR] behind the colossal so they're unlikely to be hit with any serious shooting.

There are plenty of ways to get around the colossal and kill Jakes/Jr. Jakes would probably be a bit tougher as I believe her stats are slightly better. There are way too many things with phantom shot, foxhole, e-leaps, AOEs, etc that can bypass a 19 point model to get the 3-4 point one behind it. And as you'd be shutting down 22-23 points of models it would be worth it to sacrifice 5-10 points of your own stuff.

But eventually all arguments lead to the conclusion of why not let the caster run the stormwall? They can usually do it the most efficiently. In fact the stormwall is a very efficient use of focus compared to other jacks. Jr. is still a good idea. AS is a great spell and JR can be of use simply as a solo.

Sorry...

Jakes?

New Journeywoman from the kickstarter. Everyone is getting one, and ours is (somethingerother) Jakes

Oh right, so it's a model that is being released then?

Awesome.