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Saldiven wrote:
Well, I dunno if this would really qualify as "winning" the combat, but it would definitely be worth the trade:

That SW special character that has the stasis field bomb thing in his chest? If he dies, everything in BtB with him is removed from the table or something?

GK Champion would have a decent chance at pulling a draw. A great chance for a 1/3 to 1/4 of his points cost.

The Swarmlord

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The Swarmlord

Didn't we already mention him?

I brought this one earlier but didnt get anything, how would vect do against belly? His staff being ap3 isnt really a nerf anymore since belly lacks armour and he has the 2++ to ward off damage

A corpulescense Bloodthirster could beat him pretty soundly.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
A corpulescense Bloodthirster could beat him pretty soundly.

Not really. If he gets of invisibility then the thirster is very unlikely to win.

 anonymou5 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
If the Swarmlord rolled well for his Biomancy powers and got a boost to Initiative, he would dominate Belakor. Make it looks easy in fact.

I'm actually curious about this. I imagine Swarmy would win, but keep in mind Belly can invis himself and make the Swarmlord WS1. Hitting on 5s versus hitting on 3s (with one reroll) is a pretty big deal.

Swarmie has shadow in the warp, have fun passing a psychic test on 3d6 and any double 6's or 1's is a perils. swarmie also makes you reroll passed invulnerable saves.

And as mentioned if he rolls decently on biomancy can become a very powerful beast with getting bonus to initiative and attacks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The Swarmlord

Didn't we already mention him?

Indeed but I believe people forgot about shadow in the warp.

Swarmlord is a very good at killing elite type units. His lack of attacks, make him vulnerable to tarpitting though.

BaconUprising wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
A corpulescense Bloodthirster could beat him pretty soundly.

Not really. If he gets of invisibility then the thirster is very unlikely to win.

Oh yeah WS 1 bloodthirster. A lot less threatening.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Be'lakor vs. Swarmlord (5th ed book) mock combat:

Spoiler:

~Round 1~
The Swarmlord rolls very well for psychic powers and gets Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Endurance and Warp Speed, it has successfully used Endurance and Iron Arm in the previous turn, gaining +1 Strength & Toughness, Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die
Be'lakor knows the entire Telepathy discipline, he successfully casts Invisibility on himself and glides forward into charge range, in the shooting phase he attempts to use Psychic Shriek but fails due to Shadow in the Warp, rolling an 11 on 3d6.
Be'lakor charges into combat and declares a challenge to avoid the Lash Whips in the unit, the Swarmlord accepts.
Hammer of Wrath fails to wound
With 6 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s, Be'lakor ends up causing 1 unsaved wounds after FNP.
The Swarmlord strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting on 5s and wounding on 2s, causing 1 unsaved wound.
Wounds left: Be'lakor - 3 | Swarmlord - 4

~Round 2~
It is the Swarmlord's turn and it casts Endurance and Warp Speed (+2), he gives himself Preferred Enemy, Invisibility is still active on Be'lakor.
Be'lakor gets 5 attacks that result in 1 more wound.
The Swarmlord's 6 attacks also cause 1 wound.
Swarmy heals 1 wound thanks to IWND
Wounds left: Be'lakor - 2 | Swarmlord - 4

~Round 3~
Be'lakor manifests Invisibility successfully but loses a wound to Perils and opts to not attempt any further powers
Attacking, he deals 2 unsaved wounds after Feel No Pain
At the same initiative the Swarmlord's 6 attacks result in one more unsaved wound and Be'lakor is slain!
Wounds left: Be'alkor - | Swarmlord - 2

Despite some poor rolls, victory ends up going to the Swarmlord!

Now that's what I like to see! Good ol' Swarmy. Of course, the thing about the Swarmlord is that he HAS to roll well. Getting 4 powers usually helps, but if he doesn't... It would be interesting to see how it would turn out. I usually give the Swarmlord the benefit of the doubt, but Be'lakor is insane...

Apart from the psychic powers the Swarmlord actually rolled quite poorly, especially on to hit rolls. On round 2 it actually only hit Be'lakor once despite having 6 attacks and Preferred Enemy.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Apart from the psychic powers the Swarmlord actually rolled quite poorly, especially on to hit rolls. On round 2 it actually only hit Be'lakor once despite having 6 attacks and Preferred Enemy.

That is pretty bad. Still neat he managed to pull through though. What helped the most in your opinion?

This is why PvP fights should be Mathhammered not rolled. Anecdotal evidence being anecdotal.

Sinful Hero wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Apart from the psychic powers the Swarmlord actually rolled quite poorly, especially on to hit rolls. On round 2 it actually only hit Be'lakor once despite having 6 attacks and Preferred Enemy.

That is pretty bad. Still neat he managed to pull through though. What helped the most in your opinion?

The combined damage mitigation from Blade Parry and Endurance is what allowed the Swarmlord to chip away Be'lakor's 4 wounds, even with Invisibility.

Lobukia wrote:This is why PvP fights should be Mathhammered not rolled. Anecdotal evidence being anecdotal.

Quite frankly, the huge influence psychic powers have on the match-up discouraged me from doing the mathhammer.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Be'lakor vs. Swarmlord (5th ed book) mock combat:

Spoiler:

~Round 1~
The Swarmlord rolls very well for psychic powers and gets Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Endurance and Warp Speed, it has successfully used Endurance and Iron Arm in the previous turn, gaining +1 Strength & Toughness, Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die
Be'lakor knows the entire Telepathy discipline, he successfully casts Invisibility on himself and glides forward into charge range, in the shooting phase he attempts to use Psychic Shriek but fails due to Shadow in the Warp, rolling an 11 on 3d6.
Be'lakor charges into combat and declares a challenge to avoid the Lash Whips in the unit, the Swarmlord accepts.
Hammer of Wrath fails to wound
With 6 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s, Be'lakor ends up causing 1 unsaved wounds after FNP.
The Swarmlord strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting on 5s and wounding on 2s, causing 1 unsaved wound.
Wounds left: Be'lakor - 3 | Swarmlord - 4

~Round 2~
It is the Swarmlord's turn and it casts Endurance and Warp Speed (+2), he gives himself Preferred Enemy, Invisibility is still active on Be'lakor.
Be'lakor gets 5 attacks that result in 1 more wound.
The Swarmlord's 6 attacks also cause 1 wound.
Swarmy heals 1 wound thanks to IWND
Wounds left: Be'lakor - 2 | Swarmlord - 4

~Round 3~
Be'lakor manifests Invisibility successfully but loses a wound to Perils and opts to not attempt any further powers
Attacking, he deals 2 unsaved wounds after Feel No Pain
At the same initiative the Swarmlord's 6 attacks result in one more unsaved wound and Be'lakor is slain!
Wounds left: Be'alkor - | Swarmlord - 2

Despite some poor rolls, victory ends up going to the Swarmlord!

You guys are not really using Be'lakor to his potential.

Don't forget, he is first and foremost a force-multiplier. DO NOT just charge him headlongs into combat with the Swarmlord without casting some Maledictions first.

Also, don't forget that there are other units in a Daemons army that can buff him up. For example, 2++ from the Grimoire. Prescience from Fateweaver. 1 re-roll from Fateweaver (I would use on grounding test or on his 2++ Invuln save).


This is how the combat with Swarmlord should go.


Stay about 18" away from Swarmy. Cast Hallucination from out of Shadows range. Then charge in. If Swarmy does not have Iron Arm, there is a chance that he insta-kills himself. There is also a chance that he just sits there and does nothing, not even fight back.

Also, cast Terrify on Swarmy first (before Hallucination). Now you can potentially sweep him in combat if he loses. You can also pin him with Hallucination if he isn't Fearless.

Now charge Be'lakor in with a 2++ Invuln and Prescience against a potentially non-Fearless Swarmlord and I guarantee you Be'lakor will win eventually.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:

BE'LAKOR VS LYSANDER



BE'LAKOR VS ABADDON



BE'LAKOR VS GHAZGHKULL



BE'LAKOR VS KALDOR DRAIGO

Be'lakor should be able to beat all of these guys with the help of the Grimoire and Terrify.

Cast Terrify on the Fearless units and now you can sweep them in combat with a 2++ Be'lakor.

As for Draigo and Lysander, Be'lakor with 2++ > Imperial beatsticks with 3++. Just make sure to cast Invisibility on Be'lakor before going into combat against those guys.

I was demonstrating a one on one combat of Swarmlord vs. Be'lakor to see which one would win in a fight, not a Tyranid vs Daemons battle, obviously you don't just charge an unsupported Be'lakor into the Swarmlord (really don't just charge anything into the Swarmlord, it tends to not go well for you), because as I demonstrated, the Swarmlord could quite easily punk Be'lakor in a fair fight.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I was demonstrating a one on one combat of Swarmlord vs. Be'lakor to see which one would win in a fight, not a Tyranid vs Daemons battle, obviously you don't just charge an unsupported Be'lakor into the Swarmlord (really don't just charge anything into the Swarmlord, it tends to not go well for you), because as I demonstrated, the Swarmlord could quite easily punk Be'lakor in a fair fight.

I know, but I never look at things in a vacuum. Rather, I look at it from the perspective of real-game experiences. And in a real game, it's not just Be'lakor vs the Swarmlord. It's daemons vs tyranids. And even if Be'lakor should fight Swarmy one-on-one, real-game experience tells me that it is absolutely stupid to go into that fight without the Grimoire on Be'lakor as well as some psychic buffs for him and debuffs for Swarmy (with the debuffs coming from Be'lakor himself).


Real-game experience gives you a more accurate perspective of how something should happen than just pure mathhammer in a vacuum. That's what I'm getting at.

True, and real game experience is why I don't take the Swarmlord in competitive games, because while the mathhammer says that its top dog when it comes to one on one combat, experience has taught me that you'll rarely have one on one showdowns in an actual game. Still, it is useful to know whether or not you can take on something in a vacuum, so you can see if you need those buffs/debuffs or not.

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I was demonstrating a one on one combat of Swarmlord vs. Be'lakor to see which one would win in a fight, not a Tyranid vs Daemons battle, obviously you don't just charge an unsupported Be'lakor into the Swarmlord (really don't just charge anything into the Swarmlord, it tends to not go well for you), because as I demonstrated, the Swarmlord could quite easily punk Be'lakor in a fair fight.

I know, but I never look at things in a vacuum. Rather, I look at it from the perspective of real-game experiences. And in a real game, it's not just Be'lakor vs the Swarmlord. It's daemons vs tyranids. And even if Be'lakor should fight Swarmy one-on-one, real-game experience tells me that it is absolutely stupid to go into that fight without the Grimoire on Be'lakor as well as some psychic buffs for him and debuffs for Swarmy (with the debuffs coming from Be'lakor himself).


Real-game experience gives you a more accurate perspective of how something should happen than just pure mathhammer in a vacuum. That's what I'm getting at.

While that's very true, the Tyranid army isn't exactly sitting still for Be'lakor to steamroll over them either. But I think you're missing the point- it's not about which army is better than the other, but who would win in a One on One All-Out Smash-Up Brawl! I don't think anyone is trying to prove which army could take down a Daemon army with Be'lakor. It's just something for fun.

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I was demonstrating a one on one combat of Swarmlord vs. Be'lakor to see which one would win in a fight, not a Tyranid vs Daemons battle, obviously you don't just charge an unsupported Be'lakor into the Swarmlord (really don't just charge anything into the Swarmlord, it tends to not go well for you), because as I demonstrated, the Swarmlord could quite easily punk Be'lakor in a fair fight.

I know, but I never look at things in a vacuum. Rather, I look at it from the perspective of real-game experiences. And in a real game, it's not just Be'lakor vs the Swarmlord. It's daemons vs tyranids. And even if Be'lakor should fight Swarmy one-on-one, real-game experience tells me that it is absolutely stupid to go into that fight without the Grimoire on Be'lakor as well as some psychic buffs for him and debuffs for Swarmy (with the debuffs coming from Be'lakor himself).


Real-game experience gives you a more accurate perspective of how something should happen than just pure mathhammer in a vacuum. That's what I'm getting at.

If there was an actual 1v1 battle, Be'lakor could just jump/fly around the board hiding from swarmy, whilst vector striking and using psychic shriek until he wins

 PrinceRaven wrote:
True, and real game experience is why I don't take the Swarmlord in competitive games, because while the mathhammer says that its top dog when it comes to one on one combat, experience has taught me that you'll rarely have one on one showdowns in an actual game. Still, it is useful to know whether or not you can take on something in a vacuum, so you can see if you need those buffs/debuffs or not.

While double-flyrants have become the norm in competitive tyranid builds, many people still run the Swarmlord in their lists. As a matter of fact, 2 very good players in my area run the Swarmlord + flyrant in their armies - Janthkin and Reecius.

Yeah, in a straight up 1-on-1 fight isolated from the rest of the army, Swarmy can take on Be'lakor. But in a "real" fight between them, you're going to find Be'lakor beating up on the Swarmlord in most cases, mainly because he is a cheater.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I was demonstrating a one on one combat of Swarmlord vs. Be'lakor to see which one would win in a fight, not a Tyranid vs Daemons battle, obviously you don't just charge an unsupported Be'lakor into the Swarmlord (really don't just charge anything into the Swarmlord, it tends to not go well for you), because as I demonstrated, the Swarmlord could quite easily punk Be'lakor in a fair fight.

I know, but I never look at things in a vacuum. Rather, I look at it from the perspective of real-game experiences. And in a real game, it's not just Be'lakor vs the Swarmlord. It's daemons vs tyranids. And even if Be'lakor should fight Swarmy one-on-one, real-game experience tells me that it is absolutely stupid to go into that fight without the Grimoire on Be'lakor as well as some psychic buffs for him and debuffs for Swarmy (with the debuffs coming from Be'lakor himself).


Real-game experience gives you a more accurate perspective of how something should happen than just pure mathhammer in a vacuum. That's what I'm getting at.

While that's very true, the Tyranid army isn't exactly sitting still for Be'lakor to steamroll over them either. But I think you're missing the point- it's not about which army is better than the other, but who would win in a One on One All-Out Smash-Up Brawl! I don't think anyone is trying to prove which army could take down a Daemon army with Be'lakor. It's just something for fun.

I'm not talking about which army is better. I'm talking about a real-game simulation between a daemon army with Be'lakor vs a tyranid army with Swarmy - what would happen if the 2 HQ's went one-on-one in that context. You can assume the rest of the armies are fighting each other and it's Be'lakor facing Swarmlord in a climatic showdown. Any daemon player in this case would be foolish not to put the Grimoire on Be'lakor so you assume he has the Grimoire on him, just like you would assume Swarmy would cast Iron Arm and/or Endurance/Warp Speed on himself as well as give himself Prefered Enemy.

 Selym wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I was demonstrating a one on one combat of Swarmlord vs. Be'lakor to see which one would win in a fight, not a Tyranid vs Daemons battle, obviously you don't just charge an unsupported Be'lakor into the Swarmlord (really don't just charge anything into the Swarmlord, it tends to not go well for you), because as I demonstrated, the Swarmlord could quite easily punk Be'lakor in a fair fight.

I know, but I never look at things in a vacuum. Rather, I look at it from the perspective of real-game experiences. And in a real game, it's not just Be'lakor vs the Swarmlord. It's daemons vs tyranids. And even if Be'lakor should fight Swarmy one-on-one, real-game experience tells me that it is absolutely stupid to go into that fight without the Grimoire on Be'lakor as well as some psychic buffs for him and debuffs for Swarmy (with the debuffs coming from Be'lakor himself).


Real-game experience gives you a more accurate perspective of how something should happen than just pure mathhammer in a vacuum. That's what I'm getting at.

If there was an actual 1v1 battle, Be'lakor could just jump/fly around the board hiding from swarmy, whilst vector striking and using psychic shriek until he wins

In a hypothetical battle with an infinite number of turns, then yes, you could do that.

However, in a real-game scenario, that is almost impossible. That is because there are only a finite number of turns. Be'lakor would have to fly over Swarmy and then take 1 turn to re-adjust his position so that he can do another Vector-strike. Thus, that's a minimum of 2 turns just to do 1 vector-strike and against a Swarmlord which we assume to have Iron Arm and Endurance on him.

Also, as soon as Be'lakor does re-adjust his positioning (i.e. he would most likely need to go into Gliding mode to turn around), he'll be in danger of being tarpitted by some tyranid gribblies.

Moreover, a tyranid army can spread out its gribblies to make landing from a vector-strike hard to do.

Lastly, there is always the danger of getting grounding by tyranid shooting and then getting tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. It may be a 1 in 9 chance due to Fateweaver, but tervigon-based tyranids can potentially generate enough units to make flying near the main tyranid force a risky endeavor.


---------------------------------------------------------------


As an aside, sorry if I'm making these simulations seem a bit more complicated, but I tend to think tactically and from the perspective of not just 1 unit vs another in a vacuum, but in the context of 1 army vs another. That's because simulations in a vacuum can oftentimes give you unrealistic expections.

Your trying to spoil the fun Jy2 . This is a cage match, non of that tactical stuff allowed.

Sorry, I guess I'll bow out then.

Carry on guys.

 A GumyBear wrote:
I brought this one earlier but didnt get anything, how would vect do against belly? His staff being ap3 isnt really a nerf anymore since belly lacks armour and he has the 2++ to ward off damage

Vect really isn't a melee powerhouse, when they made him they tried to make a first rate bruiser fit in with DE tactics and it turned out funny. He doesnt really compare to the likes of Abbadon, The Swarmlord, Ghazkull or any others.
Waiting for a new DE dex. Any millenia now. Aaaaany Millenia now.

Hexwolf wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
I brought this one earlier but didnt get anything, how would vect do against belly? His staff being ap3 isnt really a nerf anymore since belly lacks armour and he has the 2++ to ward off damage

Vect really isn't a melee powerhouse, when they made him they tried to make a first rate bruiser fit in with DE tactics and it turned out funny. He doesnt really compare to the likes of Abbadon, The Swarmlord, Ghazkull or any others.
Waiting for a new DE dex. Any millenia now. Aaaaany Millenia now.

He kinda is a melee powerhouse. You won't see a new deldar dex for a good 10 years so...enjoy...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He'd be instakilled by Belakor though.

I'm thinking of Swarmlord, Abbadon and Lukas right now... the first two for obvious reasons and Lukas because apparently, his replaced heart can kill an Imperator Titan in combat, albeit at the price of his own life... a small price in comparison me thinks.

Ok, let me throw this into the blender: Be'lakor vs Chaos Contemptor dread with (2) DCCW with inbuilt Plasma Blasters. and...........GO!