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 Sidstyler wrote:
Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.

I think it is dependent upon what the unit filler in question is. The Skaven example given is a good one, as it's very well done and it's clear that you're fighting a rat herd rather than a big statue with some rats on the base.

I know I've got a few unit fillers in the works for my Skeletons, Ghouls, and Zombies. A few 40mm bases with tombstones and disturbed earth(skeletons), hands reaching out of the ground/crawling torsos(zombies), some mausoleums that are overgrown with vines and creepers with broken masonry and bits and pieces of corpses leading inside(ghouls).

I should do some for my Dire Wolves too, but I like the models too much to really want to do unit fillers for them.

Unit fillers are one solution to the problem. The problem still exists though... and unit fillers tend to be more accepted in some armies/units than others. I don't think I've ever seen a cavalry unit or a high elf unit with a unit filler in it...


For me, Fantasy doesn't really appeal anymore. The army size is too big (too many models to paint), a full force is prohibitively expensive, the rules tend to inhibit rather than help, and the fluff is generic and bland compared to most other games I've played....

 RiTides wrote:
Here's hoping 9th ed makes game sizes smaller and resets the meta with all army basics in one book.

Nah! 9th'll have an increased frontage to 8 model, and a minimum of 6 ranks to get any sort of bonus! Every infantry block will be 100+. It'll so amazingly cinematic!

 Sidstyler wrote:
Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.

I'm sure the Warhammer World tournament pack puts some restriction on unit fillers (something like a unit must be less than 25% filler), as well as some rules as to what counts as things like zombies (such as an arm sticking out of the ground doesn't count). In a non-affiliated club/store, then I'm sure people won't mind.

Saldiven wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).

Try starting with this:

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/thorgersons-storm-of-steel-135-figures.html

60 hand weapon and shield guys
40 crossbow or handgun guys
20 2-hand weapon guys
4 cannons (can alternatively be made into an organ gun)
(And ten dudes riding what look like huge badgers; might be worth something "counts as" in the new Army Book)

All for 99 pounds.

That's definitely what I'd be doing, using Mantic for the rank and file and Avatars Of War for the special stuff. I'll never get to play with it at Warhammer World but it'd be too much hassle to bring down anyway.

It still doesn't address the problem that "pure" Warhammer is just too expensive; the only way many people seem to consider starting it is via 3rd parties or the 2nd hand market, which can't be good for GW's bottom line.

Unit fillers, much like anything else, tend to follow the rule of cool. I for the most part love fillers, they're opportunities to show off some cool modelling ideas.

I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.

Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.

The larger number of models in a unit also contribute to 'painting fatigue' as you have now 50% more models needed per unit.

While there was a complaint before that you had to have models that were basically just wound counters that didn't do anything, the methods they used in 8th to 'fix' it instead made it worse.

In addition to this, an equal point game seems (ironically) 'smaller' thanks to the larger units. While before, it would seem like the units would be somewhat 'small (30 for medium guys like Empire state troops; 12 for more elite Chaos Warriors), the fact you had lots of these units and 30 looked reasonably bulky meant that it wasn't too much for the mind to fill in the gaps, and the presence of lots of multiple units gave the impression of a larger army.

Conversely, now we have large hordes which despite being more models means they suck up points so you have fewer units to cover space, and it actually ends up looking smaller and less epic.

While 8th has got better balance and can be a lot of fun (as long as the magic phase doesn't ruin it, but some may say the magic phase always ruined everything), it had too many decisions that hurt the game as a whole.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
Unit fillers, much like anything else, tend to follow the rule of cool. I for the most part love fillers, they're opportunities to show off some cool modelling ideas.

I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.

Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.

I have to agree with this, its not the type of game that you will be completing your force quickly, and that for some is part of the charm.

I had more trouble with magic in 7th edition. My friend played chaos and used to just slaughter my blood knights/grave guard/vampires with infernal gateway. But seriously too many models, not enough money.

Agree with the view that some models in big units are just there as filler.

I could never do a skaven army. I've tried at least 3 or 4 times. I've seen skaven armies of 300+ models and the thought of doing that breaks me out in a cold sweat.

To do 300 models, with each model having 3 or 4 bits each = 1200 bits to file or glue = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I will always respect any man (or woman - I'm comfortable with equality ) who can put out a Skaven army in 8th.

Sidstyler wrote:Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.

Again, the rule of cool applies, and so does it too depend on who you're playing. If you were to stick a single model on a 4x2 base and declare it a unit filler, I imagine there would be a few people who would complain. Personally, I couldn't care less. If your unit filler is good-looking and has actually had some effort put into it, most people will be more than happy to play you, and give you a few compliments as well, I'd wager.

Lanrak wrote:

Whats wrong with WHFB?
Its too expensive, complicated, random and rediuos to play.

I understand expensive, and random as well, but complicated? How is it complicated? It's 40k with angles and blocks of troops.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Agree with the view that some models in big units are just there as filler.

I could never do a skaven army. I've tried at least 3 or 4 times. I've seen skaven armies of 300+ models and the thought of doing that breaks me out in a cold sweat.

To do 300 models, with each model having 3 or 4 bits each = 1200 bits to file or glue = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I will always respect any man (or woman - I'm comfortable with equality ) who can put out a Skaven army in 8th.

Funnily enough, there are more armies in the WHFB world than Skaven. If you don't want to paint a huge amount of models, then don't collect Skaven. That's like me saying "oh I don't like 40k because I don't like shooting armies and Tau are rubbish in close combat". Collect a different army. I've just put together a 2000 point (a good game size) Ogre list with 25 models. And two of those are chaff and cost 21 points each, and could easily be replaced for a Magic Banner on a unit.

But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.

While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.

 Daba wrote:
But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.

While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.

But if you like ratman enough, you will ENJOY painting and assembling those models, no matter the cost and time. You wouldn't be complaining about "agh too many models" because you would enjoy it.

EDIT: Its like me saying "The problem with Epic is the models are so tiny and no one wants to paint them." If that is the case, then you are playing the wrong game. Same with WHFB. Its not the best idea to compare 40k to fantasy because they aren't the same game, yeah very similar in different ways, but are there for people with different tastes.

Even if you love a concept or model line, having just so many can be a real drag to do, and the numbers become a little too many.

It's not like the Epic example at all, as the problem is the quantity - too many and you will either fatigue it, the project will take too long and you lose interest or you need to drop the quality and do a rush job.

When I did my Blood Bowl team, I was really into it,but by the end of that I was getting a little fatigued and that was only 14 models, with a little variation between the positions. It would be much worse for 50, where the largest variations are only on the command.

I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.

If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.

I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.

I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect

8th was a huge step forward from 7th for me - pre-measuring (rather than people "getting round" it), step up and other bits and pieces but some elements I still don't enjoy.....

If you don;t like painting models ( I dont either) - just buy them painted on ebay - its usually cheaper than unpainted and they usually look good......

Daba wrote:But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.

While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.

So say I like combat, but I like Tau. I'm out of luck as well. Does that mean there's something wrong with 40k? No, and the same doesn't apply to WHFB either.

Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect

Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.

For me it comes down to price, luckily i think my local gaming area has a solid fantasy base (but 40k is much bigger). But i do intend to come back either this edition or in 9th edition at some point, I just have bills that have to come first :(

 The Shadow wrote:

Daba wrote:But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.

While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.

So say I like combat, but I like Tau. I'm out of luck as well. Does that mean there's something wrong with 40k? No, and the same doesn't apply to WHFB either.

Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect

Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.

True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?

 Cryonicleech wrote:
I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.

If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.

I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.

This is basically what I was trying to express. If you don't see it as some rush to get them all on the table, then you can pace yourself.

With the chaff aspect. The reality is that in this kind of situation not every man is a hero who can slay some beast - Many men will die for what seems like nothing.

I was honestly surprised reading this thread. I live in central MA and in my FLGS, I see Fantasy played frequently. Not AS frequently as 40K, but it's no rarity either. Matter of fact, the Fantasy section on the wall is closer to the door than the 40k!

But. I don't play in my FLGS. I play with only friends, and we play friendly and exclusively at 1000 pts., up from 500. Small armies, yes, but it keeps the model count small and keeps the games quick. We can usually play 2 or 3 on a good night. Is it moderately expensive? Yes. But 1k is a decent point value, in my opinion. Small games are fun, different strategy.

Thing is, I also play 40k, as 'Nids and GK. When I tried to get my Fantasy-playing friends into 40K, they were flat out not interested. When you are used to the S3-4 shots and S6 is a big deal, suddenly spamming S8 pie plates becomes ridiculously over-the-top. My main opponent (Who plays Dark Elves) could not find any races he liked. Surprising, right?

I can see how people find the huge units a turn-off. When I played Skaven, even at 1k, I was fielding 2 slave-busses of 40 Slaves each. The idea of unit fillers didn't occur to me (besides it is difficult to keep track of model numbers with unit fillers, again in my opinion) so I legit had rank-and file 40 slaves. And even THAT is small compared to higher point armies. I love the little ratmen but would absolutely HATE to play Skaven at 2500 pts., the amount of models to paint would be staggering. I switched to Ogres because I loved the fluff and the models, plus, bonus! Low model count! .

My advice is to find the Warbands rules for Fantasy (they're floating around the intrawebs) and start at 500 pts., try to get a few close friends interested. Also BUY/MAKE MOVEMENT TRAYS. The rank-and-file units all uniform and in the tray look amazing. Wielding spears? Try making the back rank with spears upright, the next rank lower, and lower, until the front rank has the spears pointing forward. I assure you that you would be hard-pressed to find something the aesthetically pleasing. Google "(your army here) unit fillers" and see the awesome ideas people come up with. Play for fun, keep it friendly. Don't do power-builds like FLYERSPAMLOL in 40K. Field fun things, and find a way to win. It will grow on your friends, I promise.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Daba wrote:But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.

While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.

So say I like combat, but I like Tau. I'm out of luck as well. Does that mean there's something wrong with 40k? No, and the same doesn't apply to WHFB either.

Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect

Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.

True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?

I understand your point but, the thread is "what's wrong with warhammer fantasy", not "why don't you play warhammer fantasy". You may not like angles or chaff, but that doesn't make it a fault of the game, it doesn't mean it's something that's "wrong" with it.

The reasons people don't play Fantasy is what's wrong with it, because if they're not playing it for those reasons then there are fewer people playing it in general and further increasing player decline.

What I am trying to get across is that people see the 'unit fatigue' much more with Fantasy, which is why (on top of price issues) it is becoming less popular. For a wargame, this is a fatal flaw as fewer players can become death of it, as you no longer have anyone to play.

I think what it is is also the daunting task of building and painting all those extra models that wont do anything.

Normal 40k army usually takes me 150 to 200hrs at a high quality level and that's with a 50 odd infantry and some tanks. A fantasy army numbering 150 infantry + cav + warmachines/monsters is getting to the 400hr range. Plus add in GWs lovely habit of completely invalidating armies and units.

Its more models, and more work. And that is exactly what's wrong.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Here's hoping 9th ed makes game sizes smaller and resets the meta with all army basics in one book.

Nah! 9th'll have an increased frontage to 8 model, and a minimum of 6 ranks to get any sort of bonus! Every infantry block will be 100+. It'll so amazingly cinematic!

Such narrative! It'll be amazing!

 Cryonicleech wrote:
I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.

If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.

I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.

that's because with skaven you can probably get away with just dry brushing&washing the fur and generally painting them in a dirty quick style and it wont look too out of place.

try doing that with high elves or even warriors of chaos and your army will end up looking like crap.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect

Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.

True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?

I understand your point but, the thread is "what's wrong with warhammer fantasy", not "why don't you play warhammer fantasy". You may not like angles or chaff, but that doesn't make it a fault of the game, it doesn't mean it's something that's "wrong" with it.

I think that you are drawing too fine a logical distinction Shadow. People do not like certain aspects of the game, and on that basis do not play it. These things may or may not be flaws in the game in some general sense. However, from the perspective of the commenter, they are most definitely flaws in the game. It should also be noted that many people are mentioning the same flaws over and over again. Price, number of models to build and paint, overpowered magic, grind fests between infantry, weak cavalry, etc. This lends some credence as flaws in a more objective sense.

I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.

As for why 40k is seen as more popular, well for starters you are posting in a predominantly 40k forum, so there's some bias there. There's also the usual issues of game aesthetics, model count, rules, and what not. By and large, I think the hobby tends to draw a larger portion of one personality type than the other, and that type could be said to prefer some things over others. They like drag racing and Nascar, not F1 or Le Mans. You'll catch them watching an NFL game much easier than you would the finals of Wimbledon. They can recite with astonishing accuracy the powerful feats and abilities that their chosen hero is capable of in the lore, yet consistently forget basic rules and functions of their army on the tabletop. They seem completely surprised and amazed EVERY time when their BS6 twin-linked ion cannon of doom manages to kill a vastly inferior target from across the table. They prefer to ignore the fact that they are doing nothing more than playing an inferior, oversized, cumbersome, and entirely more expensive version of a game that was created over 2 decades ago (Titan Legions/Epic/Arma....now SUPERSIZED!...smh)...see what I did there?

If you had to pinpoint the issue, it's that some gamers prefer the notion that they command a god-like force of immense power the likes of which the universe has never seen, and some people prefer WHFB. To be fair, I think it can go both ways. I know myself, I would love a world in which I could play a game of 40k and know I was jumping into a gaming system as well put together as WHFB. Likewise, it would be a fun change of pace to play a game of WHFB with nothing more on my agenda than the prospect of enjoying the next 30 minutes blowing my opponent to smithereens. Honestly though, it's all well and good, because at the end of the day, it's just a game played by hobbyist, and there's really no right or wrong way about it. For now, though, WHFB remains a more complex system with a much more complete and balanced ruleset and gameplay. Thus, it is more intensive to get involved in, and this makes people think. People don't like thinking when all they want to do is have fun and play a game with friends. That's where 40k comes in. Less thinking, more dice rolling and explosions, faster pace. Fewer hard choices, fewer risks, lots of rewards. That appeals to many people.

There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance. I am convinced, though, that within the realm of both systems, WHFB and 40k, there exists two completely perfect games, if you draw from the entirety of their individual rulesets. There was a lot to be said for unit strength and the magic phase of 7th edition, as was having models 4 wide instead of 5. Likewise, there was much to be said for charging from one combat to another in 40k, as was their for detailed item options in many 3e codex's. Maybe one day GW will get their act together, or someone will finally write a ruleset on their own that both communities can get behind which is far superior to anything GW would even be capable of in this day and age.

 Aipoch wrote:
I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.

As for why 40k is seen as more popular, well for starters you are posting in a predominantly 40k forum, so there's some bias there. There's also the usual issues of game aesthetics, model count, rules, and what not. By and large, I think the hobby tends to draw a larger portion of one personality type than the other, and that type could be said to prefer some things over others. They like drag racing and Nascar, not F1 or Le Mans. You'll catch them watching an NFL game much easier than you would the finals of Wimbledon. They can recite with astonishing accuracy the powerful feats and abilities that their chosen hero is capable of in the lore, yet consistently forget basic rules and functions of their army on the tabletop. They seem completely surprised and amazed EVERY time when their BS6 twin-linked ion cannon of doom manages to kill a vastly inferior target from across the table. They prefer to ignore the fact that they are doing nothing more than playing an inferior, oversized, cumbersome, and entirely more expensive version of a game that was created over 2 decades ago (Titan Legions/Epic/Arma....now SUPERSIZED!...smh)...see what I did there?

If you had to pinpoint the issue, it's that some gamers prefer the notion that they command a god-like force of immense power the likes of which the universe has never seen, and some people prefer WHFB. To be fair, I think it can go both ways. I know myself, I would love a world in which I could play a game of 40k and know I was jumping into a gaming system as well put together as WHFB. Likewise, it would be a fun change of pace to play a game of WHFB with nothing more on my agenda than the prospect of enjoying the next 30 minutes blowing my opponent to smithereens. Honestly though, it's all well and good, because at the end of the day, it's just a game played by hobbyist, and there's really no right or wrong way about it. For now, though, WHFB remains a more complex system with a much more complete and balanced ruleset and gameplay. Thus, it is more intensive to get involved in, and this makes people think. People don't like thinking when all they want to do is have fun and play a game with friends. That's where 40k comes in. Less thinking, more dice rolling and explosions, faster pace. Fewer hard choices, fewer risks, lots of rewards. That appeals to many people.

There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance. I am convinced, though, that within the realm of both systems, WHFB and 40k, there exists two completely perfect games, if you draw from the entirety of their individual rulesets. There was a lot to be said for unit strength and the magic phase of 7th edition, as was having models 4 wide instead of 5. Likewise, there was much to be said for charging from one combat to another in 40k, as was their for detailed item options in many 3e codex's. Maybe one day GW will get their act together, or someone will finally write a ruleset on their own that both communities can get behind which is far superior to anything GW would even be capable of in this day and age.

This.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

kb305 wrote:

 Cryonicleech wrote:
I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.

If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.

I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.

that's because with skaven you can probably get away with just dry brushing&washing the fur and generally painting them in a dirty quick style and it wont look too out of place.

try doing that with high elves or even warriors of chaos and your army will end up looking like crap.

Yes that's true, but you need significantly less models for a high elf force.

kb305 wrote:

 Cryonicleech wrote:
I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.

If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.

I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.

that's because with skaven you can probably get away with just dry brushing&washing the fur and generally painting them in a dirty quick style and it wont look too out of place.

try doing that with high elves or even warriors of chaos and your army will end up looking like crap.

Before we even get into the argument of what constitutes an "acceptable" look for an individual's army, might I note that you'll be running significantly smaller unit sizes for Warriors of Chaos, with High Elves featuring maybe a block or two at 40 strong.

You can spend as much time on your models as you want to get the results you want, the point is that while the unit will take more time, regardless of what army you play, you can break down any unit for any game into smaller chunks to make the project much more manageable.

Additionally, the idea of magic as overpowered is a bit overblown. Yes, there are some pretty ridiculous spells out there (Curse of the Horned Rat, Purple Sun to some degree...) but the amount of times I've seen it come up is rather nil, and the amount of risk vs. reward is generally fair enough that even if your opponent irresistibly casts that bomb spell, they can suffer as well, in potentially horrifying ways. While I'm not saying it isn't a valid concern, I think that amongst those who haven't played view it as much more dangerous than it really is.

HI folks.
Earlier in the post I made a comment about WHFB rules being over complicated.(More pages of rules than necessary to deliver the game play.)
And I thought I better explain.

IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)

And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.

It is quite clear that WHFB is suffering from rules bloat.(No where near as bad as 40 k though.)

Some call KoW 'WHFB light'. I prefer to call it WHFB done right!
Its odd how game developers can really shine when they are not bound by GW management directives.
(Jake and Allessio have developed some excellent games at Mantic. )

I love the fluff, and the models, but five reasons why I don't play [despite having quite a lot of Lizardmen]. Money, time, prefer to play other options, complicated rules and no real interest amongst my gaming group.

When I got back into Warhammer I joined a WHFB escalation league [back in 7th I think]. To be honest I didn't really enjoy playing - it felt like a maths exam, working out how far I could wheel, and was really... fiddly. 40k on the other hand seemed a lot easier to pick up and was much more intuitive.

Also, I found it really expensive so ended up dropping out. I'm an Ebay monkey and resale prices for WHFB stuff are really high. I paid about £2 per trooper for my Sisters army but trying to pick up some bargain lizards was pretty impossible [I ended up getting a load of the old ugly ones that came in a starter box I think, but any non rank-and-file were really pricey].

Only one of the people I game against has any interest [he's started painting up some Skaven] but it's hard enough to organise a game of 40k, let alone trying to schedule in WHFB too.

Lastly, WHFB is behind both Space Hulk and X-Wing of games I want to play more [still got 2 unopened X-Wing starter sets]. So can't see myself getting into it, probably ever.