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 Da Boss wrote:
Marielle, that's a fallacious argument. The steep start up cost and time investment in Fantasy these days really is a factor in why you might not see many fantasy players. Comparing Mantic figures to plastic army men is pretty poor form- the better sculpts are not far from GW in terms of quality.

You are also quite insulting towards a lot of people in your second question. I don't understand why so many "casual gamers" feel the need to be like that towards the so called "hardcore tfg" crowd.

a) I didn't mention Mantic
b) I didn't ask a second question


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Riquende wrote:

 marielle wrote:
There is still some work to be done on the neurotics within the fan-base who appear incapable of free thought, but they are gradually being moved over to other game companies and 'systems' where they can indulge their passion for being told what to think and do.

I would say the folks you describe are the ones clinging to GW's 'systems'.

Free thought = buying the models you like from any manufacturer and using them all in whichever system (sorry, 'system' ) you like. Sounds like GW to me...

And I would agree... to an extent...

Play nice children, Grampa's tryin' to take a nap....

Seriously - what's 'wrong' with fantasy is the expensive buy in - yes, there are ways around it, from eBay to diorama bases, to the use of miniatures from other companies. (It has been more than a decade since I last played with a group that cared what company made the minis.)

But, something to bear in mind is that this forum is an educated audience - one that almost by default knows about these options, or will as soon as they read more than three threads....

Your average mook in the street has no idea about buying Warhammer with online discounts - this is how an awful lot of stores stay in business, and not just GW or gaming stores in general . Folks go into the mall, plunk down their pence, and make their purchases. (This is changing, and fast - but I do not believe that is yet a majority that shop online.)

So, ignore eBay and the online discounters - and goodness knows that GW really wants you to ignore the discounters and eBay.

There are some armies that you can get into for less money - and others for much more money.

So, on that level... the game is expensive to get into, and for a beginner, very time consuming if you do not want to field an entire army in bare plastic.

For a beginner, painting 300 zombies is daunting, while for an experienced painter, who knows about and is willing to use the paint and dip method, that is a couple of weeks. (Been there, done it, still patting myself on the back over it....)

It was much easier with Mordheim.... but that is skirmish level.

The Auld Grump

Saldiven wrote:
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

Except that GW doesn't do small skirmish games anymore, all of the mentioned games take a similar amount of time to play, and when you boil it down to useable units (1 block of 40 infantry as a single controllable block) you get a similar number of things to push about the table and similar strategic depth (depending on your rules).

GW is pushing towards bigger games, whilst gamers are migrating towards smaller games.

GW is pushing towards selling larger minature collections, whilst gamers are migrating towards better games.
Fixed that for you!

Because lots of people play large scale battle games!
Just not the super pricey ones, with over complicated poorly defined rules GW try to sell.

That's certainly true to a point, but I'm also seeing a lot of people locally buying skirmish scale games; rather than having an army for a game or two they are collecting a faction for dozens of different games.

And that can only be a good thing in terms of variety

In my experience people aren't moving away from big battles, people are just leaving GW.
For every person in my local area that leaves 40k for warmachine another leaves 40k for dystopian wars.

Hmmm....I sure hope we get our Dys Wars community booster back soon over here. WM/H is booming and Infinity is growing locally, but it would be great to see some Spartan and DZ Commander action here.

It's a bit difficult to judge the success of WHFB and 40k in Norway since I am not really embedded there, but the general impression is of a stable 40k scene and a WHFB tournament scene that's lost the growth it had when 8 hit and reverted to its end-of-7th edition level, or perhaps a bit below. However, it might also be considerably healthier as - at least locally - there is a casual tournament scene in the local club that is seeing quite a few players show up.

Here's my take on it.

GW rules are badly written. Within a week of a new release, there are pages and pages of questions about rule meanings and rules interacting in unintended ways... or are they unintended? Questions that SHOULD have been answered in editing are left for FAQs months later.

GW minis, while not terribly expensive from a 'hobby' perspective (consider the costs for most sports, for example), are of above-average cost when compared to other miniature manufacturers. And it doesn't help that the game requires a LOT of minis to play, even at fairly low point costs like 1000-1500 points; never mind the 2500-3000 points for the 'average' game.

However...

If I want to play a pickup game, all I have to do is grab my army and head down to the FLGS on Warhammer night, and I'll get a game in. The only other miniature games that comes close to it in terms of local popularity are 40K (another GW game) and Warmahordes... which rather leaves me cold because I'm not a fan of either skirmish games or steampunk in general. Other games are 'search to find a player and then schedule a game', because those people playing the other games are scattered quite thoroughly among the different options, so the odds of someone 'just happening' to bring in a force for a pickup game is somewhere between non-existent and 'yeah, right.'

GW brings one thing of value to the table: LOTS of other players for me to game with.

But even that is changing, as folks move to other games.

There are stores that have Warmahordes nights, Malifaux nights, and other games. (Those two are the only non-GW ones that I can attest to locally.)

There are now two stores in a fairly large 'local' area. One is GW only, and the other is slowly moving away from GW - and was before the newer GW only store opened. (They still have a Warhammer 40K night, but no longer have a Warhammer Fantasy night.)

The GW only store is struggling - the other is booming. (Diversity helps - but the diverse shop also pays less for its rent and has a larger place.)

I didn't even know about the GW only store until last week - and if I had waited another six months then I suspect that I never would have heard of it. :(

The Auld Grump

Anybody want to come in with me on developing a 10mm mass battle system and associated mini range, then Kickstarting it?

(This is tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it...)

 azreal13 wrote:
Anybody want to come in with me on developing a 10mm mass battle system and associated mini range, then Kickstarting it?

(This is tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it...)

Increase it to 28mm heroic, and maybe.

I don't like the 10mm scale, too tiny for my liking. Which is a pity, becuase the Dropzone Commander rules (which are in 10mm scale) are pretty solid.
I'm not a fan of the alternating turns system, but I do like how the FoC scales with the size of the game, and with how you have to move the objectives off of the field, instead of just sitting there.

Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

Since 10(and 15)mm also represent larger masses of troops on each stand in many other ancient/medieval systems, and other rules (like Gore's excellent Medieval Warfare) use 28mm on stands to represent the same, you could easily use 28mm heroic for the mass fantasy battles. Good old Raven (by Harlequin Games) did and was an excelllent systen.

WHFB doesn't (see elsewhere for why WHFB isn't truly a mass battle system, but an overgrown skirmish game), of course, but if people truly wanted a mass fantasy battles system, 28mm would be as good as 15 or 10. You have to get down to 2mm to represent troops in the masses you'd want for even a relatively small medieval-style battle, and by then you're painting ranked dots rather than miniature soldiers.

 azreal13 wrote:
Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

So why didn't Warmaster work?

And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.

 The Shadow wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

So why didn't Warmaster work?

And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.

It did work and still does, sells have nothing to do with have good a system is. GW shows us that.

 The Shadow wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

So why didn't Warmaster work?

And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.

Warmaster is a good game. However, Lord of the Rings was released shortly after Warmaster and many players probably chose LOTR SBG over Warmaster. There are also many gamers/painters who will not buy 10-15mm scale minis.

Noir wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

So why didn't Warmaster work?

And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.

It did work and still does, sells have nothing to do with have good a system is. GW shows us that.

Good point, well made.

 The Shadow wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

So why didn't Warmaster work?

And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.

You also have a bit of a chicken and egg situation there, did SG's not sell so GW dropped them, or would they have sold if they'd not be left to rot for years unsupported?

Yeah I think fantasy is overall a better game. There's no OP space marines and usually situations are way less ridiculous though there have been moments when greater daemons have been killed nothing can be or is ridiculous as the emperor or horus's physical blows being strong enough to destroy planets. A friend talked about tyranids wiping out the squats and yeah i'll give them that but 40k feels more stagnant for the most part. There's a bajillion worlds and nobody matters but each battle doesn't matter. In fantasy the empire has been almost destroyed by just about all the baddies (skaven, orcs and goblins, chaos, etc.). Also fantasy has a sense of humor where 40k pukes and sh*ts grimdark. The whole space marine bit also feels a bit childish sometimes.

Then there's the deal with instead of the game being about a million flavors of space marine there are plenty of factions that are played. If empire are the generic human good guys the story focuses on then they are under-played for such a side. I've seen so many different factions played (lizardmen, orcs & goblins, vampire counts, warriors of chaos, high elves, dark elves and skaven though much less for stuff like bretonnia, beastmen and similar). It's still different than facing the same army 80% of the time.

I think part of the problem lies in that people prefer sci-fi fantasy to fantasy. Also I've talked to some that just didn't really know what side to start with warhammer fantasy. Then there's the deal with fantasy being more complicated game-wise. The price is a problem but it is with 40k too. That said the model count of armies is bigger in fantasy.

Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well.
Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.

SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.

And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)

 azreal13 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

So why didn't Warmaster work?

And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.

You also have a bit of a chicken and egg situation there, did SG's not sell so GW dropped them, or would they have sold if they'd not be left to rot for years unsupported?

The specialist games all have a fatal drawback to GW; you don't need to buy so much of it, and/or it costs less. You can build a Necromunda gang or a Warmaster horde pretty cheap and then not have anything to buy. You have to spend a lot more for a complete Warhammer army. So they could have been doing well and GW killed them to pursue more profitable options.

Agreed, it also fits with the general apparent pattern of GW not valuing anything that has non-financial benefits, ie these lower-cost, small force games were brilliant gateway products into the larger, core games. Managed properly I still maintain SG could have been a fabulous asset for GW and a great generator of new players and enthusiasm and goodwill amongst veterans, but what do I know?!

Yeah, BFG would have been a great gateway to the Wh40k world.
Cancelling that was a financial blunder, imo. Especially when you factor in the demographic of people who like space combat.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, BFG would have been a great gateway to the Wh40k world.
Cancelling that was a financial blunder, imo. Especially when you factor in the demographic of people who like space combat.

Ironically, I hadn't played BFG since the version where you threw the dice into the box lid to see what you hit and missed, but I have subsequently, since coming back to wargaming in mid-5th 40K, gone cuckoo for X Wing, and would be all over BFG if it was still readily available.

As it is, I'm pretty much done with 40K for the time being, I have models to paint for months and won't need any more, and rather than go for a Fantasy army, as I did when I reached this stage back in 2nd Ed days and buy some Brettonians, I've invested heavily in Darklands from Mierce, the aforementioned X Wing and have plans to move on to Infinity once my collectors for those are mature. So that's a whole bunch of hobby cash that simply won't go to GW because they don't offer enough options for people to explore once they've reached the point where I am.

Yeah, you'd think they never heard of Howard Moskowitz. Variety is the spice of life and all that.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well.
Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.

SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.

And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)

As yet, it doesn't do one thing I need it to do - allow me to walk into the game shop with my army and get in a pickup game. There aren't enough (if any) KoW players in the area for that. In that it's like every other mini game in out area outside of WFB, 40K, and Warmahordes - you need to contact a player and schedule a game; pickup games simply do not happen.

Will that chance in the future? Good question.

My problem with Fantasy is no one I know plays it anymore and even among people I don't know it seems impossible to get a game.

Well that's the first problem, I also hate a lot of the 8th edition changes. They turned it from a tactical game in to something which amounts to "push large amounts of models forward, roll lots of dice and hope for the best".

Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.

 Vulcan wrote:
As yet, it doesn't do one thing I need it to do - allow me to walk into the game shop with my army and get in a pickup game. There aren't enough (if any) KoW players in the area for that. In that it's like every other mini game in out area outside of WFB, 40K, and Warmahordes - you need to contact a player and schedule a game; pickup games simply do not happen.

Will that chance in the future? Good question.

No the question is...Do you care if it changes? Nothing changes by excepting the norm, you must be willing to effect change.

@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)

To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.

BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...