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That's your opinion Martel. Not everyone shares it.

White Scars player?

I love the idea of bike lists. Space Marines are crusading knights in space anyway. Them being mounted is so much cooler. I plan on making a Black Templars mounted force just for the hell of it.

I am a little disappointed that Tac Spam doesn't work well outside of drop pods. Ah, well. Thanks guys for the responses!

It is at least a switch up having bikes not suck like they have since 2nd. But many other marine builds are just straight invalidated by biker builds. Poor, poor internal balance. I think all the meq codices in 6th pretty much suck.

No, I think C:SM can do fairly well if built with a sense of focus. Just take 2 tac squads, thunderfire cannons, devastators, some suicide speeders, Sternguard and a Captain. Or take all bikes or all pods.

I think C:SM's main issue is that it either cannot get a indeniable save or take the opponent's save away like the big armies can. If Marines had a way to fortify cover, had a way to ignore "Ignore Cover" or, at the very least, had a way to reduce cover saves then they would see a lot more success. I think this is more Phil Kelly and Jeremy Vetock's incompetence at balance more than anything else. And Robin Cruddaces.

DA dakkabanner might be the list for you if you want to use all those tacs.

Libby with pfg
Command squad with dakkabanner
LRC.

Tacs with flamer/ml

Void shield relay (3 void shield wih promethium pipes) add obstacles for those times when cover isnt ignored.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
No, I think C:SM can do fairly well if built with a sense of focus. Just take 2 tac squads, thunderfire cannons, devastators, some suicide speeders, Sternguard and a Captain. Or take all bikes or all pods.

I think C:SM's main issue is that it either cannot get a indeniable save or take the opponent's save away like the big armies can. If Marines had a way to fortify cover, had a way to ignore "Ignore Cover" or, at the very least, had a way to reduce cover saves then they would see a lot more success. I think this is more Phil Kelly and Jeremy Vetock's incompetence at balance more than anything else. And Robin Cruddaces.

First off, no meq book gets access to 2++ rerollable like the Xenos or ignore cover St 8 AP 2 pie plates. Strike one. Even focused marine lists fall flat because at the end of the day, being a generalist is not worth it in 6th. It's much better to just shoot your opponent from a distance and be done with it. Marines just don't have the throw weight in general to do this. Even in the new book. Grav bikers are great until they start taking casualties. Grav also gives my lowly BA two 5++ saves still and relies on quality of wound over weight of fire. Compare to Tau who just straight ignore cover, and my armor and FNP, or Eldar who just drown me in S6/S7 from range 36". Oh, yeah shooting my BA with puts them in harm's way of counter attacks, while the Eldar can do their thing from a safe distance.

Let's put it this way. With my crappy ass BA (and they are SO bad), I have already beaten the new marine codex more times than Eldar, Tau, and Demons COMBINED. Does that sound like a top tier codex? Or even one that's truly powerful? Yeah, the new marines are a bit cheaper, but they still lack the insane options of the Xenos. Cents are better that what's in my BA book, but at least I can KILL them. If the marine player attachs Tiggy, now they are on foot and BA mobility means something. Seercouncils and screamerstars are fast as/faster than my BA and *I CAN'T KILL THEM*. I can't even tarpit the council because of that stupid Baron. See the difference?

Even the dakkabanner isn't that fearsome to me because I can hurt the DA and do things delay them reaching optional range for a couple of turns. BA are good at movement. But the Eldar just start in from turn 1 wtih amazing firepower. Please quit trying to tell me marines are "fine".

Martel, while I agree that the new Marine codex isn't a "OMGWTFAUTOTAKEGT1STPLAEC" book it isn't a bad codex by any standard.

Every army list has a counter to it. Grav bikers are a good counter for MC spam and apparently whatever Blood Angels list is a good counter for whatever Space Marine army list he wrote. And any army starts falling apart when taking casualties unless they are Tyranids. That's the whole point of shooting them.

Also, no army can mass deep strike elite infantry quite like C:SM can. Not only can you get drop pods but you got Stormravens to back 'em up. Admittedly that does mean it has poor internal balance like all of Cruddace's books do (*Cough*Vendettas*Cough*) but that isn't to say the book can't deal damage to the "Top tiers". Plus, those are only two codices out of what, 15?

I will give you that in a tournament setting you'd best leave your marines at home but they can do well in a more casual setting. Then again, your Meta probably has a gak ton more of Taudar then mine does so... yeah, that's probably a big factor.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Martel, while I agree that the new Marine codex isn't a "OMGWTFAUTOTAKEGT1STPLAEC" book it isn't a bad codex by any standard.

Every army list has a counter to it. Grav bikers are a good counter for MC spam and apparently whatever Blood Angels list is a good counter for whatever Space Marine army list he wrote. And any army starts falling apart when taking casualties unless they are Tyranids. That's the whole point of shooting them.

Also, no army can mass deep strike elite infantry quite like C:SM can. Not only can you get drop pods but you got Stormravens to back 'em up. Admittedly that does mean it has poor internal balance like all of Cruddace's books do (*Cough*Vendettas*Cough*) but that isn't to say the book can't deal damage to the "Top tiers". Plus, those are only two codices out of what, 15?

I will give you that in a tournament setting you'd best leave your marines at home but they can do well in a more casual setting. Then again, your Meta probably has a gak ton more of Taudar then mine does so... yeah, that's probably a big factor.

The other Xeno books haven't dropped yet. Every Xeno book is better than every meq book so far this edition. I'm willing to bet the trend continues. Top tier would be the three Xeno codices so far this edition.

People like to win where I play. Can you blame them for using Taudar? Playing dirt taster marines and sitting there having the Eldar player tell me how many saves I need to make each turn is not most people's idea of fun.

The whole point of the problems meqs face is that they are no longer elite. They don't really last that much longer than Fire Warriors and modern Xeno firepower because marines are being wounded on 2's so much now. In many cases, they last not longer at all (Riptide pie plate of doom). They gave the Xenos options to turn marines into cannon fodder and smart players use those options. I can't blame them.

Also, I didn't counter anything. It's just that the grav gun is not a weight of fire weapon like mass scatterlaser/starcannon/shuriken cannon. Grav guns also always give FNP and marines have a hard time ignoring cover. So my 5++/5++ was good. Against Eldar, I usually get 3+/5++ FNP, it just *doesn't matter or help*; they have too many dice.

Grav guns wound get 3/5 shots each, deny your armor saves and force you take a 5+. How are they not a weight of fire weapon?

As for the xeno codices, yeah they are pretty good but you can't just say "Oh, Meq is just utterly useless against them". I've faced off against Eldar before (Admittedly with my guard army) and the key thing with them is to stick to cover and gun the crap out of them.So, I guess my point is that the Xeno codices can be beaten with good list building and allies but it'll be an uphill battle.

Also, I plan on running Footguard with Inquisition/ABG allies. I am not a casual at all costs player by any standard.

I think there is a lot of ill-deserved negativity over the new SM dex, for several reasons.

No, we can't get a re-rollable 2++ or ignore cover on every shot, but only 2 codexes can get the first, and only one has the potential for the last (and not all builds take full advantage of it). And to be honest, I think it's obvious that the OP combos in some books like Eldar/DE and Demons are really down to poor rules-writing on the part of those authors, rather than the inability of the writers of C:SM to counter those combos.

The aim of each new codex shouldn't be to make a broken combo, but to balance it. I'd be interested to find out whether the writers of Codex: Demons intended anyone to come up with the 2++ combo, or for Tau players to take 4+ Riptides with Enclaves+Tau. But there's no way that every new codex should be given a counter to those (likely unintentional) power lists. Not all codexes can be the best, otherwise you end up with only one list for each army and the game ends up boring as hell, or you get eternal power creep.

So, SM can't mix it up with the ultra-competitive lists like Triptides and Screamerstars. How about the more reasonably balanced lists:
Nids: we have great abiity to spam small army for the little guys, and plenty of opportunity to bring Grav/plasma for the big'uns

IG: While we suffer to their AP2/3 blasts, their infantry crumple against mass Bolters and TFC do a number on them. Once we reach CC with Krak grenades (not hard with Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos) their tanks will go down fast.

DA: We can beat Deathwing thanks to mass small arms, and Ravenwing are generally outclassed by WS bikers. The only real advantage they have is the Dakkabanner, and even that can be countered by mechanising or using bikes to get closer faster (the banner seriously limits their mobility)

BA: SM win this one largely thanks to being so much cheaper. When BA get updated this might be a little closer, but even then, they lack the ability to blow away SM any faster than SM can retaliate.

SW: Previously SW were outright better, but now with cheaper marines it's a little closer. Not sure on this one, but my money would be on the SM thanks to greater air power and newer toys like Grav-cents.

CSM: Here we have issues with FMCs and Heldrakes, but can counter those with some good AA options in the Stalker and Hunter, and a few Stormtalons can probably beat Drakes in the air. We also have the Storm Wing formation available should we need even more Air power.

DE: Easy win for the SM here I think, DE just lack durability in the face of small arms, and SM can bring a lot of that.

Orks: As above, bolters will mow them down.

SOB: Probably beatable fairly easily thanks to ability to force saves with massed bolters.

GK: Weight of fire brings them down easily, and we can match them in the air.

Crons: We might lose to them in the air (but so do most), but on the ground we can beat them, especially with Assault and TFCs throwing AP4.

So that's that, against most armies
While there are obviously things SM can't do, that could be said of any army. Let's focus on what we can do:

Deployment: With Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos, Space Marines can excel at force concentration and can deny shooting armies a lot of firepower by focusing on only one area and getting in their face early on. Space Marines are very good at picking their battles.

Small Arms: While we can't do this as well as Tau, we can still throw down a lot of AP5 shots, and as mentioned above, they can get those shots where they need them.

Versatility: With Pods, Mech and bikes, there are a lot of ways SM can be set up, giving us a counter to most armies.

So to conclude, Space Marines can handle most armies, and while they can't handle the top tourney builds, that doesn't invalidate them. As mentioned above, those builds are only 3 codexes out of 15, and only one build from each of those. I'd wager most people don't face those types of build unless they go looking for them and as such are prepared, and against most others, SM can fight it out with the best of them.

The codex is very far from useless, and really is about where most should be, it's just that a few loopholes in 3 books convince people that every army should be measured against those benchmarks. If you're going to a top tourney, you're probably not taking SM, as you'll probably be using a more common netlist.

 Paradigm wrote:
I think there is a lot of ill-deserved negativity over the new SM dex, for several reasons.

No, we can't get a re-rollable 2++ or ignore cover on every shot, but only 2 codexes can get the first, and only one has the potential for the last (and not all builds take full advantage of it). And to be honest, I think it's obvious that the OP combos in some books like Eldar/DE and Demons are really down to poor rules-writing on the part of those authors, rather than the inability of the writers of C:SM to counter those combos.

The aim of each new codex shouldn't be to make a broken combo, but to balance it. I'd be interested to find out whether the writers of Codex: Demons intended anyone to come up with the 2++ combo, or for Tau players to take 4+ Riptides with Enclaves+Tau. But there's no way that every new codex should be given a counter to those (likely unintentional) power lists. Not all codexes can be the best, otherwise you end up with only one list for each army and the game ends up boring as hell, or you get eternal power creep.

So, SM can't mix it up with the ultra-competitive lists like Triptides and Screamerstars. How about the more reasonably balanced lists:
Nids: we have great abiity to spam small army for the little guys, and plenty of opportunity to bring Grav/plasma for the big'uns

IG: While we suffer to their AP2/3 blasts, their infantry crumple against mass Bolters and TFC do a number on them. Once we reach CC with Krak grenades (not hard with Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos) their tanks will go down fast.

DA: We can beat Deathwing thanks to mass small arms, and Ravenwing are generally outclassed by WS bikers. The only real advantage they have is the Dakkabanner, and even that can be countered by mechanising or using bikes to get closer faster (the banner seriously limits their mobility)

BA: SM win this one largely thanks to being so much cheaper. When BA get updated this might be a little closer, but even then, they lack the ability to blow away SM any faster than SM can retaliate.

SW: Previously SW were outright better, but now with cheaper marines it's a little closer. Not sure on this one, but my money would be on the SM thanks to greater air power and newer toys like Grav-cents.

CSM: Here we have issues with FMCs and Heldrakes, but can counter those with some good AA options in the Stalker and Hunter, and a few Stormtalons can probably beat Drakes in the air. We also have the Storm Wing formation available should we need even more Air power.

DE: Easy win for the SM here I think, DE just lack durability in the face of small arms, and SM can bring a lot of that.

Orks: As above, bolters will mow them down.

SOB: Probably beatable fairly easily thanks to ability to force saves with massed bolters.

GK: Weight of fire brings them down easily, and we can match them in the air.

Crons: We might lose to them in the air (but so do most), but on the ground we can beat them, especially with Assault and TFCs throwing AP4.

So that's that, against most armies
While there are obviously things SM can't do, that could be said of any army. Let's focus on what we can do:

Deployment: With Drop Pods and options for scouting Rhinos, Space Marines can excel at force concentration and can deny shooting armies a lot of firepower by focusing on only one area and getting in their face early on. Space Marines are very good at picking their battles.

Small Arms: While we can't do this as well as Tau, we can still throw down a lot of AP5 shots, and as mentioned above, they can get those shots where they need them.

Versatility: With Pods, Mech and bikes, there are a lot of ways SM can be set up, giving us a counter to most armies.

So to conclude, Space Marines can handle most armies, and while they can't handle the top tourney builds, that doesn't invalidate them. As mentioned above, those builds are only 3 codexes out of 15, and only one build from each of those. I'd wager most people don't face those types of build unless they go looking for them and as such are prepared, and against most others, SM can fight it out with the best of them.

The codex is very far from useless, and really is about where most should be, it's just that a few loopholes in 3 books convince people that every army should be measured against those benchmarks. If you're going to a top tourney, you're probably not taking SM, as you'll probably be using a more common netlist.

Paradigm, I respect your posts, but I'm going to be brutally honest when I point out that this is flawed reasoning.

First of all, you've turned into a massive strawman argument in that you have:
A) Completely ignored Eldar/Tau counters, the primary complaint, point and issue
B) Generalized every Codex's weaknesses as though they're giant bullseyes presented before our eyes point blank (Delivery and utilization is just as important as effectiveness)
C) Given handwave explanations connecting A to B (yes, we didn't need to be told that bolters kill weak infantry)
D) Given "how to beat" solutions on armies that noone is complaining about being imbalanced

And then you've ended your post by saying that is conclusive?

You haven't directed answered the true point that extreme versatility is nil compared to blunt effectiveness + some versatility right now, instead just listing Pods, Mech and Bikes, of which only Pods and Bikes are decent. You can throw turds fast, far and plentifully (spamming Tacticals with their low special weapon allowance) but that doesn't mean they're more worthwhile as a weapon than a bundle of hand grenades. A turd may scare some, but a grenade kills often, and that's why these highly competitive Taudar lists are so effective and whitewashing against Marines.

My reason for ignoring the likes of Tau and Eldar, that are hard counters, is that it is already established that SM are in a bad matchup against them. What I was trying to point out is that against other armies (which are probably just as widely played) SM can more than compete. The powerlists are not going to be beaten by anything but another powerlist, so there's no point endlessly reiterating that SM can't deal with them. Instead, I chose to focus on what we can do, rather than what we can't, and be positive rather than negative.

Where I have an issue is that people immediately use 'can it beat screamerstar/triptides/seer council?' as a measuring stick for effectiveness, and proceed to ignore the majority of armies in the game. Dismissing an army because it cant beat one or two others that have become powerful through loopholes and lack of playtesting is a fallacy when only a small portion of armies are those types of list. Against the majority, they can still compete, and therefore are far from useless. It's like pointing out that a sportscar can't beat a jet plane in a race, it doesn't mean it's useless against other cars, and in the same way, SM can't beat a handful of lists (that no one else can either) but are capable of handling the rest.

Just because armies aren't being complained about does not mean they don't exist, so by proving how SM can fight them, I am therefore pointing out that it is the anomalous OP lists that are the issue, rather than the SM codex being weak. The majority of the codexes that no one complains about are probably the base-line for the game, so it's a case of the Tau/Dar/Demons being better than average, rather than the rest being worse that average.

I am aware that I have simplified every codex's weakness, but that is no different to the generalisation in this thread about how 'SM saves are useless'. I don't have the time to write a comprehensive tactica on how to beat each army, all I was trying to say is that there is something SM can do to hurt them and beat them, which is something people seem to be trying to argue against and point out that SM are entirely useless based on inability to beat the armies that everyone else struggles with as well.

I fully appreciate that there are issues with SM in an optimised setting (most of those are with the other armies rather than SM themselves), but that does not render them impotent against the rest of the game as a whole. I'm just trying to point that out rather than dismissing the army as a whole.

"Where I have an issue is that people immediately use 'can it beat screamerstar/triptides/seer council?'"

Those are the opponents we are tasked with. Just like NFL teams have to deal with the Seahawks or Broncos.

And I have a winning record against the new SM codex with BA. I know this is purely anecdotal, but I can't even get to turn 5 with anything alive against Eldar. How are these books even in the same game again? And the internal balance of the SM book is also poor, making it a BORING book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Grav guns wound get 3/5 shots each, deny your armor saves and force you take a 5+. How are they not a weight of fire weapon?

As for the xeno codices, yeah they are pretty good but you can't just say "Oh, Meq is just utterly useless against them". I've faced off against Eldar before (Admittedly with my guard army) and the key thing with them is to stick to cover and gun the crap out of them.So, I guess my point is that the Xeno codices can be beaten with good list building and allies but it'll be an uphill battle.

Also, I plan on running Footguard with Inquisition/ABG allies. I am not a casual at all costs player by any standard.

Grav guns are not weight of fire because marines are still only BS 4 so only get 2/3 hits. And grav only wound my boys on 3+. So I can weather say 8 wounds that I get two 5++/5++ against vs Eldar forcing upwards of 50 saves a turn. See the difference? The marines don't have serpents, warwalkers, or warp spiders spamming me with 50+ wounds a turn. It gives me time to play my game and concentrate BA firepower and HTH units.

Seriously? Well, point taken. It's a shame C:SM turned out the way it did. If only the balance was better it could've been a great book. Ah, well, that's Gee Dubs for ya.

As my last remark, let me say this: I hope to god Tyranids won't become OP'ed.

It's a shame in terms of power level because the Eldar and Tau set the bar so high. And internally, there are just so many units that there are no reason to use.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Here is my idea. I put in as many Tactical Squads as I can into a list and combat squad them. I created so many scoring units that it'll be hard for the opponent to wipe them all out if I have, say, a ADL. Is this idea completely without merit or is it one of those things that might work depending on mission/match up?

Works okay with Calgar and Rhinos.

Well come on. By the end of 5 edition i was facing ba, sw and gk like 90% of the time. And now i'm facing eldar, tau and daemons 90% of the time. Most players are just too obsessed with winning that they forget to have fun playing. U can still beat top tier armies you just need to be a better strategist and have better luck.

Its viable but it needs 2 things:

1. Rhinos for all of them
2. Practice

I have a friend who runs 6 Tac squads all with Rhinos to a great effect. He doesn't combat squad them (unless the situation is specific enough that he should) and has a lot of practice. Basically you need to learn how Marines work against variety of opponents and how to shuffle your metal bawkxes around to maximum effect.

Now there are also some problems with your assessment Martel. Simply enough none of us know how you play your army or how your opponents play. For all we know you could be playing absolutely horrible opponents when fighting against SM and that could make up for your success. Also you could be an incredibly competent BA player who can handle SM lists well but still have troubles against the power list, as you should. I understand the only thing you can base your advice upon is your experience but your experience is not how it is everywhere. I play a WS list and have since 5th. Even in 5th playing my friend with BA was a challenge every time. Admittedly this is a bit more slanted my way now honestly. With the ability to slide through terrain worry-free and escape combat when I see fit, the new codex has been good to my army. Yet, this is just my experience. Truthfully, I had to find a way to win with my bikes last edition and that made me a better player around here. If I go elsewhere it will surely be a whole different story.

Now on to the purpose of the thread. I personally feel that massed tac squads just wouldn't quite do the job. Even with the new update they just aren't great at anything, other then standing on an objective and hoping nothing too big looks their way for long enough to vaporize them. I like to still run at least one with every list, but I'm sure to include enough other threats to ensure my opponent is not paying attention to what they're doing until the squad has either sat on an objective till turn 5 or snuck into a place to cause true damage. The worst part of the squad is the problem of mixed ranges. Half of the heavy weapons that can be taken should be placed safely back with the best LOS available, yet everything else in a squad screams to be a mid threat range where it still just isn't super effective. Even combat squads isn't a solution to the range issue since then you have a squad of 5 T4 3+ models which is entirely too easy to knock off the board in a round of shooting. You can't charge with them or you will lose. Yet, when played right they can be useful. You have to really carefully pick your fights with them. I almost solely use them to hangout on an objective and park their rhino as a nice big shield right out front. Use the Rhino's smoke screen to keep my shield around a little longer and use the rest of my force to keep my opponent busy elsewhere.

Take this with salt though since this is my army in my local meta and we do not have a ton of power gaming going on. I don't think my army could compete with the power builds that are out there, but I pride myself on being a fluff not competitive player. To each his own.

As long as you are willing to use bikers and allies, the SM codex can compete just fine even with the current (pre-escalation) powerbuilds.

Tac squads may suck as they have always done, but the SM codex when used to its full effect is good. I understand that bikes are not for everyone though, I had a bike army from 5th, so for me the new codex has been a ride to glory.

The latest (post-escalation) incarnation of my SM list actually brings a single min-sized tac-squad in a pod to take out void-shield generators. Not sure it makes it through playtesting though

 dmthomas7 wrote:
Now there are also some problems with your assessment Martel. Simply enough none of us know how you play your army or how your opponents play. For all we know you could be playing absolutely horrible opponents when fighting against SM and that could make up for your success. Also you could be an incredibly competent BA player who can handle SM lists well but still have troubles against the power list, as you should. I understand the only thing you can base your advice upon is your experience but your experience is not how it is everywhere. I play a WS list and have since 5th. Even in 5th playing my friend with BA was a challenge every time. Admittedly this is a bit more slanted my way now honestly. With the ability to slide through terrain worry-free and escape combat when I see fit, the new codex has been good to my army. Yet, this is just my experience. Truthfully, I had to find a way to win with my bikes last edition and that made me a better player around here. If I go elsewhere it will surely be a whole different story.

Now on to the purpose of the thread. I personally feel that massed tac squads just wouldn't quite do the job. Even with the new update they just aren't great at anything, other then standing on an objective and hoping nothing too big looks their way for long enough to vaporize them. I like to still run at least one with every list, but I'm sure to include enough other threats to ensure my opponent is not paying attention to what they're doing until the squad has either sat on an objective till turn 5 or snuck into a place to cause true damage. The worst part of the squad is the problem of mixed ranges. Half of the heavy weapons that can be taken should be placed safely back with the best LOS available, yet everything else in a squad screams to be a mid threat range where it still just isn't super effective. Even combat squads isn't a solution to the range issue since then you have a squad of 5 T4 3+ models which is entirely too easy to knock off the board in a round of shooting. You can't charge with them or you will lose. Yet, when played right they can be useful. You have to really carefully pick your fights with them. I almost solely use them to hangout on an objective and park their rhino as a nice big shield right out front. Use the Rhino's smoke screen to keep my shield around a little longer and use the rest of my force to keep my opponent busy elsewhere.

Take this with salt though since this is my army in my local meta and we do not have a ton of power gaming going on. I don't think my army could compete with the power builds that are out there, but I pride myself on being a fluff not competitive player. To each his own.

Well just do a back-of-envelope calculation. Eldar firepower is usually 36" range and wounds marines on 2's. Grav weapons are 18" range and wound my guys on 3's and have a lower rate of fire on average than serpent shields or scatter lasers. Tau ion whatevers are very long range and can ignore my FNP and cover saves. White Scars is the single best list you can build out of the new marine book and should probably beat BA nearly every time now. I have mostly played against people using Ultramarines to get Tiggy. Tiggy is nasty, but the UM tactics are kinda... meh. It's also not like I haven't used my BA with "counts as" rules. I have grav bikers and such as well. Making marines even MORE eltie has its own problems for sure. Now, every blown armor save costs you at least 21 points not just 16 from 5th.

The sad part is that not even prescienced grav centurions can clear enough wounds through a screamerstar or seer council to really get much done before its too late. This is more from observing other games because I have only borrowed grav cents twice to play with.

Also, I can't be that good because there are legions of posters on here talking about how Eldar, Tau, and Demons "aren't that bad" but you sure couldn't tell that from MY record.

I play marines exclusively and I think Martel is right on the money, even when I win, the tactical marines suck.

I won well against an Iyanden list last week, my stern guard killed heaps, my terminators did well, my two ten man tacticals did nothing.

There are so many ap3 weapons nowadays I just have to stick them in cover and hope for the best. One gakky heavy weapon does feth all, and the eight bolters do jack even when they are in range of anything. Eight single shots, gak strength and ap, nothing dies.

I always like to take at least twenty so it's pretty fluffy, but after my last few games I'm really starting to think they are actually pointless and I'd be better with a cheesy two five man scouts in land speeder storms, stick a flamer on there and they will pay for themselves, and they can actually get out of my table edge.

Two things my ten man tac teams literally never achieve. At worst they all die, and best they live but can't move, and don't actually kill anything.

Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.

As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.

 Illumini wrote:
Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.

As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.

Oh yeah fair enough, I don't think SM suck, I just think tacticals do.

But why don't you use tacticals in drop-pods, i thought They're meant to use those things and not just suicidal sternguard fluffwise?
Rhino-rush is still viable but not for offence but for board controle. This rhinoes are an awesome los-blocker! And they're relatively cheap and have some durability when placed correctly. Tac squads in rhinos do have uses but i find their role is more like "go to that point in a ruin midfield and smash some faces if anyone comes" rather than simply "go smash some faces".


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Imo tactical squad's best use is in a drop-pod assault. Use point-holding for scouts that are cheaper and have more range with sniper rifles thus are capable of doing at least some damage - they force passing pinning tests.
Rhino-based tacticals are not an offensive force - they're board controllers. Use them appropriately.

Martel732 wrote:
White Scars player?[/quote

How'd ya guess mate? Lol

 Illumini wrote:
Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.

As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.

Your argument about how good marines are fails when you go to allies. Scouts aren't that impressive, either. As I have stated, the marines don't scare me nearly as much as the big three.

Short answer to the OP, no, Tactical Squad Spam can not work, because small squads of marines no longer work. Just because you can combat squad doesn't mean you should.

Listen, you compare a Marine to a Eldar Guardian and you will fine that, over all, the Marine is better. Guardian has a really good gun (Assault vs Rapid Shot and Rending vs 24" range), but it is really on par with the bolter. The Eldar has great mobility with Battle Focus and in melee he has a good WS and Init. But a 5+ armor save and T 3 means he just can't take a shot. In Melee, he is not going to wound with that Str 3. He doesn't have 'ATSKNF' and can run away if he takes losses. The simple tactic is Marines outrange the Guardians, so they can outshoot the Guardians. But if the Guardians get in close and can combine fire with another unit (say a Wave Serpent), a small unit of marines is going to be wiped off the board no real problem. If you had a 10 man squad though, not only would you survive, but the return fire could be very brutal, specially if you cause them to break and run.

Eldar are also the king of the Str 6 spam. If you notice, the weaker the Strength, the more shots you get. ACs at Str 7; 2 shots. Multi-Laser and Scatter Laser at Str 6, 3 and 4 shots respectively. Heavy Bolter at Str 5 is 3 shots. Well, when your rocking Str 6 and a lot of armor for Transports are AV 11-12 and most walkers are AV 12, you have a chance to glance the heck out of them with only a few weapons due to the volume of shots. Thus Rhinos get killed really fast, as do Razorbacks and Dreads. Eldar Bright Lances are only Str 8, but turn any armor over 12 to AV 12, giving them a 50% to do a hull point and a 33% chance to pen. I feel that AV 13 and 14 armor is actually really good against Eldar because your forcing them to take Bright Lances. Now all you have to do is kill what is caring the Bright Lances and they have a hard time hurting you. And lets be honest, a lot of Eldar do not pack a lot of Lances anymore.

Know your enemy, understand their weaknesses and exploit their weaknesses before they exploit yours. Tactical Marine spam in a bunch of 5 man units is asking to get slaughtered by the Eldar, and they should get slaughtered.

Martel732 wrote:

 Illumini wrote:
Martel might be right on the money with tac squads, but not with marines in general.

As I said earlier, bikes and to a degree, scouts are good troops for space marines. Some other good troops for space marines: kroot, fire warriors, eldar jetbikes, henchmen++ Use those very good ally posibilities and leave the tacs at home unless you need a cheap drop podding squad.

Your argument about how good marines are fails when you go to allies. Scouts aren't that impressive, either. As I have stated, the marines don't scare me nearly as much as the big three.

Not really. Allies are an important part of the game, and marines have very many battlebrothers that can fill whatever weakness your list has.

I play fairly varied SM lists, the commonality being biker HQ (usually Khan) 4 biker troops and 1-2 thunderfires, and I do very well. I`ve won one large tourney with such a list and got a joint first in a small one-day tourney, Except for tau, which for some reason is unpopular here, I`ve played all the current powerlists and have a 50% or better win rate against them all. This is against several ETC-team players as well. Tomorrow I`m going up against the eldar titan with my all-commers, no super-heavy list, that will be very interesting

If you don`t want bikes at all however, life gets harder as SM. I do believe Hulksmash won a tourney with ravenguard rhino-spam marines though? The rhino is actually looking much better recently, and especially with escalation. Iron hands are also looking like they can have some interesting builds, like flyer lists, and drop pods are always fairly good.

Maybe you just play with guys that are way more experienced than you or something?