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Probably a pretty easy one, but me and my group have been having some friction in regards to my Heldrakes. They say that the Heldrake can only fire in a 45 degree arc forwards and since it was 2:1 that's how we've been playing it but I was just wondering if that's correct. Thanks!

Have you checked the CSM FAQ? It is answered there...

Yeah, I said that it was a Turret weapon but I was told it was 45 degrees regardless.

Show them the turret rule in the rulebook then start xX360BBQing your friends.

I was also told that the wide end of the flamer template had to be an equal distance to the drake as the thin end, is that true?

Read the Torrent (not "turret") special rule. It tells you how to place the template.

(( Ignore, Misread - Was hoping to find something that could reduce the over-powered nature of the Heldrake as I am ashamed that I use them, but reading one word wrong changed everything.))

Yeah, the only rule that saved one of my squads from the Baleflamer was ruins: 3 Sisters per lvl of the ruin, Flamer can only ever kill 3

Per the FaQ, the weapon of the Drake is a turret, Turrets fire in a 360* AoF.

As stated in the FaQ for sakes of simplicity, you measure from the Drakes base from the closest point of your target.

And per Torrent rules, the big end of the template can't be closer then the narrow end of the template to the heldrake, meaning that you can almost place the template in anyway you want in an AoF 180* from the final point where you place the template.

Yes,...its really evil.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Per the FaQ, the weapon of the Drake is a turret, Turrets fire in a 360* AoF.

No. they don't.

Read the rules do not just look at the pretty pictures: Turrets, like all weapons can shoot at what they can point at, or what it looks like they can point at if modeling prevents them from actually turning. It is only weapons that clearly could not move that have a 45* arc, everything else is 0* point it at.


Edit: sorry this is just one of my biggest pet peeves; and a very common issue people get from not reading the rules.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Per the FaQ, the weapon of the Drake is a turret, Turrets fire in a 360* AoF.

No. they don't.

Read the rules do not just look at the pretty pictures: Turrets, like all weapons can shoot at what they can point at, or what it looks like they can point at if modeling prevents them from actually turning. It is only weapons that clearly could not move that have a 45* arc, everything else is 0* point it at.


Edit: sorry this is just one of my biggest pet peeves; and a very common issue people get from not reading the rules.

Turrets show 360 on pg 72

Actually, that shows a 360 arc of fire for that model.
The Assault Cannon on a land Raider is also turret mounted - are you going to state it also has a 360 degree arc of fire?

In the pretty picture.

The one that is not the written rules.

The land raider turret has a 360* AoF, its just that it is obscured by the LR hull

And if it is in the "pretty" picture has you say, then its the rules.

The whole freakin world has seen it, and plays it, even the poeple that are adamant versus the drake, knows it, so why say its not?

Obscured by hull means that it has less than a 360* arc of Fire now doesn't it?

It doesn't mean that the drake can't shoot in a 360 arc.

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret
Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of
the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

If his head was obscured by a hull, it might limit where he could fire. As it happens, it's attached to a very long, snakelike neck. The length of the neck is clearly enough to position the head at any angle coming off the base.

This is not worth debating. The Heldrake as a 360 degree firing arc.

On the hellturkey train of thought.

It says place the template then follow the template rules.

Does that mean since you place the template before following those rules, you can ignore the section that says "the rest of the template covers as
many models in the target unit as possible,"

There are reasons that might be beneficial to place it over just one model from a gaunt squad and still hit 3 hive guard, however you wouldn't be able to if you placed it over as many gaunts as possible.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
It doesn't mean that the drake can't shoot in a 360 arc.

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret
Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of
the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

Yes, but your original statement - that turrets all have a 360 degree arc of fire - was incorrect.
The Heldrake does because nothing is impeding it. That does not mean all turrets do.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Obscured by hull means that it has less than a 360* arc of Fire now doesn't it?

It still has a 360* arc. It just has some of the arc's line of sight blocked.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Obscured by hull means that it has less than a 360* arc of Fire now doesn't it?

It still has a 360* arc. It just has some of the arc's line of sight blocked.

Thgere's a difference between the Hull Obscuring the weapon, and the hull stopping the weapon from physically rotating. The Land Raider turret physically cannot rotate 360*.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
It doesn't mean that the drake can't shoot in a 360 arc.

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret
Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of
the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

Your underlined is not what matters, the half of the sentence after it does.

Just being a turreted weapon does not mean it has a 360* arc of fire; the Arc of fire is determined by turning the gun towards its target, or where it looks like the gun would be capable of turning, or in this case following the directions given to you to use the edge of the base nearest the target(giving it a 360* arc with a bit further range fore and aft).

It is a simple case of reading the actual rules that will help you understand this: Ignore the pretty pictures on that page, they are not the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Obscured by hull means that it has less than a 360* arc of Fire now doesn't it?

It still has a 360* arc. It just has some of the arc's line of sight blocked.

Thgere's a difference between the Hull Obscuring the weapon, and the hull stopping the weapon from physically rotating. The Land Raider turret physically cannot rotate 360*.

And the Heavy Bolter turret on the Baneblade cannot.

And the Turret Ball mount of the Night Scythe does not look like it can traverse more than 45*

The turret on the Storm Raven cannot traverse 360*

What is your point?

Or do I need to go on?

Deviant Duck: The Arc Of fire is the LOS

You mean HULL-mounted Baneblade HB?
HULL-Mounted assault cannon on the LR?
They have their own definition if you look at hull-mounted.

Night scythe is not a turret either.
Storm raven is probably the only turret "supposed" to be 360° that isn't.

Turrets as defined rotate by 360° such as the Rhino turret, Immolator turret, and many others...

[Edit]Predator, not Rhino sorry

Rhinos have pintle mounts, not turret.
Please cite where turrets have a defined 360 degree arc of fire, since you've asserted there is one.

Where does it say those weapons are hull mounted?
You look to the model, and theyre mounted on mini-turrets.

I think a lot of people need to take another look at what a turret is and what hull mounted means.

Kommissar Kel,

It all comes down to if you consider Line of Sight to be a 'range measurement' or something different. While the question was put forth about the Line of Sight requirements for the Heldrake, the answer provided also addresses measuring ranges to the Heldrake and not just Line of Sight. The sentence being quoted a lot for measuring Line of Sight from the base actual states to measure all ranges from the base. This leads to the big question that I have yet to look into, my list of things to research when I get home is a bit long today so I might just ask the question here: Is Line of Sight a 'range?'

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
It doesn't mean that the drake can't shoot in a 360 arc.

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret
Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of
the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

Your underlined is not what matters, the half of the sentence after it does.

Just being a turreted weapon does not mean it has a 360* arc of fire; the Arc of fire is determined by turning the gun towards its target, or where it looks like the gun would be capable of turning, or in this case following the directions given to you to use the edge of the base nearest the target(giving it a 360* arc with a bit further range fore and aft).

It is a simple case of reading the actual rules that will help you understand this: Ignore the pretty pictures on that page, they are not the rules.

How do you turn the neck of a model made to look like a dragon?, because if you've forgot, his weapon is in its mouth...

Thus why the FaQ, and that you can't just look at the model and say" yeah its like that".

ANd by ignoring the example picture, is just like saying you just keep what you want and ignore what you don't like, its called houseruling.

The paragraph on Turret mounted weapons says it as a 360* AoF, the picture shows it for more clarity.

I really don't see why you are so stuborn about this.

SInce a year ago, their was over 50 threads about this, and everyone arrived to the conclusion that the freakin thing shoots in a 360 AoF, but yet, you tell us to ignore parts of the rule book...

I'm not sure i understand what you are actually looking for, but my answer would be:

Range is technically measured along the LoS. In this case, from the "beak" or weapon muzzle to the target. The FAQ for the Helldrake changes this however

[Edit] Actually the LoS still works as usual as the FAQ only covers "Arc of Sight"

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged
weapon? (p52)

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
The paragraph on Turret mounted weapons says it as a 360* AoF, the picture shows it for more clarity.

What paragraph? I don't see one discussing Turret weapons on page 72.

SInce a year ago, their was over 50 threads about this, and everyone arrived to the conclusion that the freakin thing shoots in a 360 AoF, but yet, you tell us to ignore parts of the rule book...

He's not arguing that a Heldrake does not have a 360 arc of fire.
He's stating (correctly) that being a Turret mount does not guarantee a 360 arc of fire.