Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know the Chaos Space Marines are a vast group of mean disreputable. But out of all the Legions which one would be most likely to keep its word if it made a deal? To the D&D fans out there which one would you call "Lawful Evil." Or would no Chaos Space Marines be inclined to keep its promises and follow up on its bargains.

Zookie wrote:
I know the Chaos Space Marines are a vast group of mean disreputable. But out of all the Legions which one would be most likely to keep its word if it made a deal? To the D&D fans out there which one would you call "Lawful Evil." Or would no Chaos Space Marines be inclined to keep its promises and follow up on its bargains.

It depends on how far down the line of insanity any particular legion's Warlord is. Some leaders from a legion are more likely to comply than others from the same legion.

And then there's the fact that all the CSM have left now is the struggle for power. So, unless you're going to be a benefit to them in the future, they'll probably just kill you.
But don't worry, the World Eaters will at least have earlier said "I'm going to kill you", so that's one vote for keeping to their word.

EDIT: "Lawful" really doesn't compute when chaos is involved. There are, however, "Chaotic Neutral" CSM factions.

Lawful Evil is occupied by several loyalist chapters. All Chaos Marine Legions are either Chaotic Evil (most) or Neutral Evil (NLs, IWs, AL).

I think the Death Guard would be the least likely to break your deal - though you'd probably still get sick and die from being near enough to make said agreement...

Maybe Tzeencthian CSM would follow the exact terms of your agreement, but in the way that the evil genie will, by twisting the words of your contract to make it very unpleasant for you at the end!

I think it would depend on what you asked of them and what they stood to gain.

None every Chaos Marine has broken his word at least once in their lives.

The best you can hope for is a Chaos marine following the letter of an agreement.

"I never lie i only tell the truth that benefits me the most"

The Black Legion. They swear to Abaddon and are then kept from breaking their word through fear of the Warmaster.
That's about as honourable as you'll get from the Traitor Legions in general I think.

Yep. The black legion. Evem primarchs bend to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even*

World Eaters. They clearly says what they want and than take it. Also, usually says samothing like "we will kill you AAAAAAAAAAAAAL!" and...well...keep the word.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Lawful Evil is occupied by several loyalist chapters. All Chaos Marine Legions are either Chaotic Evil (most) or Neutral Evil (NLs, IWs, AL).

No, there's a lot of CSM's that are lawful evil- which is typically well intentioned extremist trope. Word Bearers would be a big example, fighting to save humanity and have their species embrace Chaos.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Lawful Evil is occupied by several loyalist chapters. All Chaos Marine Legions are either Chaotic Evil (most) or Neutral Evil (NLs, IWs, AL).

No, there's a lot of CSM's that are lawful evil- which is typically well intentioned extremist trope. Word Bearers would be a big example, fighting to save humanity and have their species embrace Chaos.

That's not how lawful evil works. Lawful evil is Evil bound by a code or structure of laws, Word Bearers have a cause (making every being kneel in service to the Dark Gods) but no carefully observed code in making that happen. A cruel and sadistic senior Wych or Archon of the dark eldar could be Lawful Evil, unleashing all manner of nastiness on the universe but only tackling 'worthy' foes and in ritualized combat, having to observe careful and strict methods to prosecuting vendettas in the city of sins.

Individual Chaos Marines might well be Lawful Evil, having built some careful path up to live by, but the Legions are Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil.

1k sons seem pretty honorable in their books... not so much in the SW books

None of them are great but:

Black Legion - Very Loyal to Abaddon

Thousand sons - Well they're dust so yes, alsong as the sorcerer is

World Eaters - They'll try to kill you straight away

Death Guard - The whole army would probably die from infection

Emperors Children - If you give them drugs probably, they just pleause

Iron Warriors - They're probably the least chaosy legion, but it depends on each warpsmith

Night Lords - They would do anything to cause fear

Word Bearers - Well, no, they're the most chaosy legion

Alpha Legion - Who knows?

So personally I think Black Legion, Iron Warriors and Thousand sons are your best bet

Tzeentch would keep it's word. Tzeentch's word is -always- good. It -always- gives you -exactly- what it promised. And Thousand Suns can only say "All is Dust." They don't really deviate from that.

I love the 1E AD&D Alignment talk in here!

Alpha Legion are obviously Chaotic Good - as they are the most Loyal of Legions in terms of working for the Emperor and Humanity - amirite?!?

 Alpharius wrote:
I love the 1E AD&D Alignment talk in here!

Alpha Legion are obviously Chaotic Good - as they are the most Loyal of Legions in terms of working for the Emperor and Humanity - amirite?!?

Yes. No. Maybe. I like pie.

I actually think there is room fluff-wise for them to make a post-heresy chapter that behaves in a similar manner to genies.

If you think about it, Fluff-wise, the only post-heresy Chaos Space Marines that's been created that wasn't immediately snuffed out for the purpose of propping up regular marines as heroes is the Red Corsairs. We have umpteen million post-heresy Loyalist chapters doing cool things, and we have records of them turning to Chaos all the time, but there isn't really an established fluff Chaos chapter who is actually successful at anything.

Gee Dubs needs to get on that.

A worshipper of khorne would be honorable in a fight there supposed to be warriors and while they well kill anyone to spill there blood and collect there's skulls they prefer those skulls to be that of great warriors.

I'd say of all of them the World Eaters are the most likely. Khorne is god or honour and marshall discipline too (as well as the usual blood, skulls, fire, brass, war, KillBurnMaim!!!!! we normally see). So if you somehow managed to stay alive long enough and convince the WE commander to an honourable, 1v1 duel, with a set of restrictions, Khorne would hold them to it. Or might not, and they butcher you.

Sons of malice. They are not full traitors, they are from a feral world who worshipped malice the chaos god of chaos and anarchy, by mistake. All they want is there home world back after the inquisition found out and called for exterminotous on it.
And honestly they aren't fully loyal to Malice, he's just the only one helping them.
So long as you are helping the sons they won't attack you, even if it's just you going the same as them, but once that changes Malice requires them to kill you, imperial, chaos or xeno.

Khornate Marines are indeed probably the best you'll get.

But that isn't saying much. They're the best out of a series of terrible options.

None of them too be honest.

The Black Legion don't even stay loyal to any one god, they flick between worshipping whoever can offer what they want, they aren't "true believers" like the Word Bearers. They just use Chaos to their own advantage.

Word Bearers present a face of unity but the novels have shown that they are a bunch of schemers looking to further their own goals. Erebus and Kor Phaeron try and play the Council of Apostles against one another for their own agendas. Marduk was a disciple for thousands of years but his master Jarulek in the back the first chance he got. Erebus also manipulated tons of key characters in the Legions to start the Heresy.

The Night Lords can definitely not be trusted, they are always killing their own. In Soul Hunter, they opened fire on the Black Legion to flee the approaching Blood Angels fleet. In Blood Reaver they turned on the Red Corsairs at the edge of victory against the imperials and in Void Stalker half of them kill each other for petty grudges they all hold.
They weren't even that loyal during the Heresy with Sevatar ordering two thirds of the Legion to abandon the overall war effort and wage their own private terror campaigns.

The Iron Warriors were famously paranoid even before the Heresy. Individual Warsmiths throw away tons of resources just to crush each other and increase their own prestige.

The Emperor's Children are, simply put, pleasure junkies. Have you ever heard someone say they trust a junky? No, because Junkies are the most unreliable creatures that exist.

World Eaters can be trusted to kill you, that's about as honourable as it gets. But they'll turn on you once the blood stops flowing. There is a reason why their greatest champion is known as "The Betrayer." Kharn tore his own legion apart just to sate his own blood lust. It's like making a pact with a mountain lion.

Death Guard can't be trusted. Their own 1st Captain tricked them into getting lost in the Warp so that they would all fall victim to the destroyer plague and forced them to turn to Nurgle.

Thousand Sons are all sorcerors, all hoping to increase their knowledge over the others, they'll do anything to get their hands on Chaos artefacts and betray anyone who gets in their way. Again, they have an instance of one of their most important champions betraying the wishes of his own Primarch and turning half his Legion into mindless slaves by accident.

Alpha Legion can't be trusted in the slightest, almost no one knows their real agenda. From the account in "Deliverance Lost" it seems that even their Primarchs are scheming against one another. It would be a foolish leader to accept them as allies and expect them not to be pursuing there own secretive goals from the start.

So yeah in short The Traitor legions have their name for a reason.

The Black Legion may be the least trustworthy and have a reputation for betraying their allies. After that i'd say the Iron Warriors, they actively lie to those who serve them and seem to get a weird sort of pleasure out of referring to themselves as the betrayers of Istvaan.

I'm not sure they count but the Blood Gorgans seem to have the greatest sense of honor(best traitor marines hence my username). I loved the part where he tells the traitor guard commander that no oath is necessary only his word as a commander of men. But their not a Legion so I don't think they count.

In Soul Hunter, they opened fire on the Black Legion to flee the approaching Blood Angels fleet. In Blood Reaver they turned on the Red Corsairs at the edge of victory against the imperials and in Void Stalker half of them kill each other for petty grudges they all hold.
They weren't even that loyal during the Heresy with Sevatar ordering two thirds of the Legion to abandon the overall war effort and wage their own private terror campaigns

It could be argued that the Black Legion had already betrayed them, and the Corsairs had stolen a vessel from another Legion warband, the latter seems to indicate some form of loyalty. Talos is certainly a piece of worth and even admits it but he does have a sense of honor. His vengeance against Ruven for killing a Legion serf certainly speaks of loyalty, and even though people seem to point to it as an indication of him being a bastard the fact that he just beats up septimus as opposed to killing him which by 40k standards is pretty light.

True but I think Talos is the exception to the rule. Cyrion is always off murdering for pleasure in the bowels of the ship and lets Uzas take the blame, Uzas himself is also off murdering in his states of madness, so he isn't much more trustworthy. Stealing the ship back from the Red Corsairs was about regaining Legion honour, but it's not really about loyalty, just about taking back what they percieve to be theirs. As a whole the Night Lords are quite a back stabby legion. I mean even Talos broke the Night Haunter's final wish and then the whole legion tore itself apart as individual captains tried to make a grab for Curze's artefacts.

individual captains tried to make a grab for Curze's artefacts.

The loyal Legions seem to do the same when it comes to artifacts, but its does make some sense given that this is their father, think of how people keep a watch or a necklace to remember a loved one. I think the NL's all had a group hug and cry after they found a recording of Curze right before he was murdered.

True but I think Talos is the exception to the rule.

I don't think we know, if you look at Vandred, Uzas, Cyrion their not themselves. Half the warriors on the ship are stuck in some state of degeneration or possession by the warp, and not the kind that the Word Bearers have that makes them more powerful but more of a sickness. I think with the Night Lords everything is up for speculation and that's the way GW likes it.

I will say that the Black Legion and Word Bearers do seem to have certain loyalty when it comes to ultimate victory. The infighting they tolerate seems to be to create a meritocracy to root out the chafe but don't tolerate those who betray the interest of the Legion or the war against the Imperium.

I would assume those Legions loyal to Khorne that AREN'T complete berserker blood knights would be too prideful and honorable to even use lies or deception. If such legions even exist anymore in the fluff considering how Khorne has gone from from "proud warrior God who won't kill those beneath him" to "KILL KILL KILL!"

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I would assume those Legions loyal to Khorne that AREN'T complete berserker blood knights would be too prideful and honorable to even use lies or deception. If such legions even exist anymore in the fluff considering how Khorne has gone from from "proud warrior God who won't kill those beneath him" to "KILL KILL KILL!"

An intelligent Khornate Lord probably would make a pact with someone, but at the end of it have both parties agree to fight eachother in a ritualised manner, just as Khorne would like.

This topic begs the question can anyone in 40k be trusted, the Imperium murders its own soldiers for knowing too much about Chaos, the Chaos armies kill and loot their own, Chapters fight each other and the high lords, the Tau clandestinely sterilize their human population, the central theme of 40k is no one is innocent, only varying degrees of guilt.

Some individuals and sub-factions are more trustworthy than others, but a general good rule of the thumb for people in the Warhammer 40k verse is to always have some aces up your sleeve when dealing with anyone (even the more trustworthy ones)..

World Eater Berzerkers and Kharn are "honorable" in the sense that they fight directly, and all they do is fight. Directly. Always and in the face of all situations. They are Neutral Evil. Not lawful evil because its not based on laws or rituals.

To some extent Word Bearers are Lawful Evil, however their hierarchy and rituals are based on the moods of fundamentally chaotic powers, hence their actions can appear chaotic. A D&D equivalent would be a bunch of knights who follow a decadent king's cruel orders against the peasants, including unfair and contradictory orders that change on a whim, because they swore to uphold the monarchy. Well, that's Neutral Evil too.

Okay, I can't really think of too many lawful evil chaos space marines.

But I can name a few loyalist ones. Dark Angels and Minotaurs, come to mind.