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Ok, so with that many tau players I'm sure you could cobble together a sextide list (I'm not sure if that's even right I just wanted to write "sextide"). But in all seriousness, six riptides would grief the living gak out of that list. I'm not even sure it matters how you kit them. I'd maybe go 2x HBC's. Then just pie plate his troops with the others. Smash like 4 skyrays in there. Then just butt loads of FoF's.

Then you can show him how cheese should really smell without spending a dime.

Edit: I'm just trying to think of a way to do it on the cheap, to avoid an arms race. And I. Sure your players would let you borrow some tides and rays to see the life drain from his eyes as you slap down six riptides..

@ techsoldaten, what state do you play in? I want to make sure that guy isn't near me!

6 helldrakes

If you're doing dual force org with allies, you could actually ally Tau Empire to Farsight Enclaves to get a total of 6 Tau Empire Riptides, 2 Farsight Enclave Riptides and O'Vesa. If you include the experimental R'Varna rules, you'd be able to add in 6 Heavy Support XV107 Riptides. Farsight's crew can't take them unfortunately.

That would be 15 Riptide battlesuits of varying armament in a single, legal dual FOC list. Way over 2000 points, but it's pretty easy to make things ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2,226 points for Farsight, 2x Ethereals, 4x 6man Fire Warrior Squads, O'Vesa and 8 Riptides

Add in 6 R'Varnas if allowed or Tau Fire Support Cadres for extra Riptides as needed at hight point level games.

I thought six was enough but when comes to out cheesing a cheeser, you sir are king.

Even thouhg it seems impossible, with enough models and attacks Zombies still only needs 6's to wound a Tide, so its not like its impossible.

Now every one is set up on 6 heldrakes...

Don't forget could be worse...

Could be 8 heldrakes...double FOC+ double FOC Allies BL.

Want to ruin someone's week?, yup thats the right way to do it...

Hey, thank you again for all the advice. I have put some of this together and will start passing it along to other players.

Feels like every time I post, I have to apologize about not being a little sterner with that guy. You know, I probably should be telling people not to play him, maybe we will get there someday. It's just hard to say that when I am not the one playing him.

@Chaos chump @whitedragon - yes, one of the riptides got charged by zombies and took 2 wounds. The other riptide that was damaged failed a save (or a couple - can't remember) from Obliterators and predators. It happens when you are able to cover about 3 square feet with models all at once. One of the riptides went down to a vector strike, the other got shot up by something.

@reiner - yes, it's sad when people feel like they have to steal. That's what is so hard about all this - I really feel sorry for that guy.

@Imnewherewheresthebathroom - I don't think anyone else in my FLGS wants to fight cheese with cheese. There are enough models between all the players to put together just about any army we want. More than anything, the point of this was just to assess what tactics are strong against such an army. I am not up on Stronghold or most fortification rules, and I don't know the specifics about anti-air for Necrons, Eldar and Tau (but I know they're good.) My Heldrakes always seem to go down to a random bolter shot or something equally stupid, not MC quad laser tesla suit redoubts.

@Kriswall - I would point that out to other players at my FLGS, except they might come back at me with it someday. The majority of games we play are 2500 points and over, so I am sure someone could afford it.

The other thing I forgot to mention about that guy is last night he talked to me about painting. I was there to paint. He described his armies as being painted to a high standard, which meant 3 color schemes. He literally painted 3 colors on each model - like with the zombies - flesh on the fleshy parts, blue on the cloth parts, brown on the boots, all block colors. No shading, no highlighting, just flat colors. His Heldrakes are all painted a flat color plus silver - yellow plus silver, blue plus silver, etc. He put a big red chaos star across their wings in order to achieve the third color.

He also mentioned he doesn't like GW paints and finds Testors to be more satisfying. It's all kind of funny when you think about it.

Well its not really anyones fault really when you think about it.

Sure he seems like an ass for doing this, and you guys seems to not really knowing how to deal with it, but in the end, its hard to "police" someone, who isn't a close friend, a family member or simply someone you don't know.

The real giulty here is GW for permitting those kind of things.

At the era where you had 0-1 or 0-2 on some units because they where deemed too unbalanced if you took them more then once or twice, those kind of things din't really occur.

okay there where still some abuse with other stuff but all in all, something really powerfull or broken was fearly rare.

Now the only limit is your wallet and your patience abd motivation to make that much units, and who's fault is that?

GW?, sure, but also parttly the players, where they pleaded that they wanted the ability to play lore of thoses limited units because for various reasons, good or bad.

So now we end up with this kind of situations, where you have to ask someone to not play something, that like he said, he payed for it and he have the right to play it, like you guys are has rightfull has him to not accept it.

But in the end it always leads to awkward situations, and thats what is hurtfull for a gaming community i think.

Now if the guy is also stubborn about it, then yes there is no 36 solutions to the problem.

Got to bite your tongue and do what you see fit to do in the end.

After reading this thread it seems the problem isn't 6 Heldrakes, but the player. I've seen this kind of player before, and it's really sad. The only thing they have in life is 40K.

The testors thing is hilarious. Also what he calls a high standard. I would love to see him smack his models down next to a truly we'll painted army and say that. But at least he painted them. Painting is a skill that just escapes some people and they can't be blamed.

Now the bread and butter. If you refuse to cheese him back you won't win. Not impossible maybe but close. And really at 2500+ points six riptides a isn't that cheesy. It's competitive. Comp tau players run 3 tides. So double foc means 6 to be competitive. Then run something awesome, like 8 fish of fury. Then you can make a mobile assault defense line. Line then up in a vanguard then deploy to the center and dakka their faces off, jump back in and back up.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:
The testors thing is hilarious. Also what he calls a high standard. I would love to see him smack his models down next to a truly we'll painted army and say that. But at least he painted them. Painting is a skill that just escapes some people and they can't be blamed.

Now the bread and butter. If you refuse to cheese him back you won't win. Not impossible maybe but close. And really at 2500+ points six riptides a isn't that cheesy. It's competitive. Comp tau players run 3 tides. So double foc means 6 to be competitive. Then run something awesome, like 8 fish of fury. Then you can make a mobile assault defense line. Line then up in a vanguard then deploy to the center and dakka their faces off, jump back in and back up.

I definitely agree with you here. At 2500+ points 6 Heldrakes is not ridiculous at all. There are too many counters.

Let's all be realistic here. The real problem with the guy is not 6 helldrakes (which is actually a terribly unbalanced list). Rather it appears to be the player attitude and the inability of the community to deal with him.

Some more tactical advise would require some idea of the armies. For example white scars or ravenwing can just charge into the zombies and stay in combat during the helldrake shooting phases. Imperial guard will be fine if they take anywhere near the number of vendettas this guy is taking helldrakes. Many of the pieces of advise here should take care of the winning aspect.

Sadly it sounds like winning will not necessarily fix the "fun" of the games with this player. If taking the player aside and explaining the principles of games, gamership, and mutual fun doesn't work then it may be an immaturity issue (regardless of age immaturity is a real issue). Hopefully he can be reasoned with to provide for better games. I would recommend smaller point levels just to reduce the pain of time lost when playing him if you still want to play him.

i agree with single force charts and not allowing doubles. This will stop the 6 birdies and force him to take a more "balanced" list.
As for the behavior..earlier, i would given him the benefit of the doubt but with the way ihas been described, I would refuse to play him at all and if i did, I would literally watch him like a awk and if I had to use the water closet or step away, i would have a buddy 'watch him' and make sure he heard you ask. If you have others who watch games or arenearby, It ght be a good ideato let him realize that everyone is tratinghim likeTFG and whe hegets aroundto asking why or voicing, it, lehimknow.

 ansacs wrote:
Let's all be realistic here. The real problem with the guy is not 6 helldrakes (which is actually a terribly unbalanced list). Rather it appears to be the player attitude and the inability of the community to deal with him.

The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.

The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.

That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.

 Blacksails wrote:
The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.

The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.

That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.

Except this guys list is not actually that great of a list. Notice that not a single one of the dual FOC GTs has been won by something like this. This list has huge numbers of hard counters and is in fact not a great list. What it is is a mono dimensional list that if played against people without the resources available to them will steam roll them. In any game where list design has an effect on the game the same thing would be observed. I will not say that 40K is perfectly balanced or even particularly well balanced but if you want a game where what you take has an effect on the game then there will always be imbalance in the list construction. This is why perfectly balanced games, ie checkers, most board games, and chess all require both players to take the same starting state.

People tend to compare 40K to chess, checkers, or battleship but 40K is much closer to DnD or other roleplaying games where the design choice was maximize options not minimize imbalance. Therefore there is a preface to the rule book that says in the spirit of the game and there are numerous portions of the rule book that repeatedly state that you should try to create a fun gaming experience for all.

The issue IS with this guy. I've read through this thread and started feeling that talking to him and involving the community in bettering him was the way to go. However, as soon as you said he is stealing property I lost all compassion. The manager of the store MUST ban a known thief from entering the premises. There's no other way. Get rid of him.

 kronk wrote:


Do people not understand that you don't have to play him? Also, if he wants a game, say "Sure! Let's do 1500 points!"

Sounds like asperger syndrome, but I'm not a Doctor.

As someone who has the listed condition, I can assure you that this analysis is flawed at best.

There is no indication that he is having difficulty understanding social interactions. Could he be? Sure. It's possible. But it doesn't look that way.

It seems far more likely that he's just a dick.

 ansacs wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.

The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.

That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.

Except this guys list is not actually that great of a list. Notice that not a single one of the dual FOC GTs has been won by something like this. This list has huge numbers of hard counters and is in fact not a great list. What it is is a mono dimensional list that if played against people without the resources available to them will steam roll them. In any game where list design has an effect on the game the same thing would be observed. I will not say that 40K is perfectly balanced or even particularly well balanced but if you want a game where what you take has an effect on the game then there will always be imbalance in the list construction. This is why perfectly balanced games, ie checkers, most board games, and chess all require both players to take the same starting state.

People tend to compare 40K to chess, checkers, or battleship but 40K is much closer to DnD or other roleplaying games where the design choice was maximize options not minimize imbalance. Therefore there is a preface to the rule book that says in the spirit of the game and there are numerous portions of the rule book that repeatedly state that you should try to create a fun gaming experience for all.

Again, no, the problem isn't the person, its the game.

If the game was balanced, or had checks to stop this kind of list, then we wouldn't be here in this thread even discussing it. You're confusing a symptom with a problem.

The problem is the game; dual force org, poor internal balance, poor external balance.

The symptom is the players using lists that exploit any one of those issues.

If you address the problem (fix the game in some meaningful way) the symptom (cheese list) will go away.

*Edit* Either way, no one is forcing you to play against a list you don't like. If the guy is an ass anyways, leave the lists out of it and address him as a person.

 Blacksails wrote:

Again, no, the problem isn't the person, its the game.

If the game was balanced, or had checks to stop this kind of list, then we wouldn't be here in this thread even discussing it. You're confusing a symptom with a problem.

The problem is the game; dual force org, poor internal balance, poor external balance.

The symptom is the players using lists that exploit any one of those issues.

If you address the problem (fix the game in some meaningful way) the symptom (cheese list) will go away.

*Edit* Either way, no one is forcing you to play against a list you don't like. If the guy is an ass anyways, leave the lists out of it and address him as a person.

Exactly, this conversation would go exactly the the same if he had taken 6 wave serpents, screamer star, cron air or vendetta spam. There is always crumby units and great units in a codex. It's the ability to spam that unit that makes it a problem, a problem that is greatly increased at 2k double force org.

I wouldn't recommend buying lots of X unit because it counters his list (that's list tailoring anyway), just don't play him if you don't think it will be a fun game.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Let's all be realistic here. The real problem with the guy is not 6 helldrakes (which is actually a terribly unbalanced list). Rather it appears to be the player attitude and the inability of the community to deal with him.

The real problem isn't with the guy, or the community, or the attitude. They might be contributing factors or symptoms, but they aren't the core issue.

The core issue is the game itself. If the game didn't have dual force org, or the silly ally system, or was even remotely balanced, this problem wouldn't exist.

That's the real issue. The rest of the stuff are symptoms really.

A billion times...

this.

 Tuagh wrote:

 kronk wrote:


Do people not understand that you don't have to play him? Also, if he wants a game, say "Sure! Let's do 1500 points!"

Sounds like asperger syndrome, but I'm not a Doctor.

As someone who has the listed condition, I can assure you that this analysis is flawed at best.

There is no indication that he is having difficulty understanding social interactions. Could he be? Sure. It's possible. But it doesn't look that way.

It seems far more likely that he's just a dick.

I have to agree with that as well. I too suffer the effects o asrgers and while it does interfere with a lot of things and make some stuff harder, it doesnt make you act like that. I know I never have.
I think a few of those who are biased towards us here would bet well served to research the condition before attributing it to all negative behavior.

 Tuagh wrote:

 kronk wrote:


Do people not understand that you don't have to play him? Also, if he wants a game, say "Sure! Let's do 1500 points!"

Sounds like asperger syndrome, but I'm not a Doctor.

As someone who has the listed condition, I can assure you that this analysis is flawed at best.

There is no indication that he is having difficulty understanding social interactions. Could he be? Sure. It's possible. But it doesn't look that way.

It seems far more likely that he's just a dick.

Post of the day.

 EVIL INC wrote:

I have to agree with that as well. I too suffer the effects o asrgers and while it does interfere with a lot of things and make some stuff harder, it doesnt make you act like that. I know I never have.
I think a few of those who are biased towards us here would bet well served to research the condition before attributing it to all negative behavior.

Yeah, just to be clear, in no way am I saying that guy has aspergers or any kind of psychological issue. If he does, I am not trying to make fun of him. As a gamer, he simply has a unique personality and perspective on the game.

There is one other thing about the way he plays that is very interesting tho, and that is worth talking about.

It's with his zombies and the way he lines them up. When I have seen him play, he is meticulous about the placement of models. He creates 2 lines of zombies that occupy almost the width of the board, and has everything else marching behind them. He creates gaps between these two lines for units from his army to shoot through. You can tell those gaps are very strategic, they allow other models to shoot at opponents at specific angles that allow focus fire.

The front line troops are being used to provide cover for the ones behind them. When he loses some models, he's spreading them out the next turn, and looking very carefully at the placement. He's putting his head near the board sometimes into order to figure out true line of sight from one unit to the next. This is why his glasses keep falling off on the table, and why his movement phases take forever.

The result is that anything is his army that matters always has a cover save. There's no way to shoot at his other units without shooting through them first. It was watching the way he handled his zombies that made me want to start adding cultists to my own.

More and more dickheadedness with each revelation.

I say never play him and warn anyone who might as to what their in for. My group has seen folks like this come and go. The group will learn to not play him or he will learn to stop being such a gigantic donkey-cave.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

I say never play him and warn anyone who might as to what their in for. My group has seen folks like this come and go. The group will learn to not play him or he will learn to stop being such a gigantic donkey-cave.

I wouldn't call this being a dill weed. My point is he really knows how to use his meatshields well.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
More and more dickheadedness with each revelation.

I say never play him and warn anyone who might as to what their in for. My group has seen folks like this come and go. The group will learn to not play him or he will learn to stop being such a gigantic donkey-cave.

I'm sorry, and not trying to sound confrontational or sarcastic, but how does playing by the rules and using them properly to maximize the potential of his units make him an donkey-cave?

I'm not seeing it, honestly. He's not bending the rules, or using shady interpretations, he's just doing what the book allows him to create artificial firing lanes. If you have a problem with that kind of play, maybe this ruleset is what's giving you problems, not the people.

But once more, all this points to flaws in the game, not the people playing it. When you blame the player, all you're really doing is pointing out that you may not like the way someone else plays/enjoys the game, the same way they might think the same of you.

That stacked on top of the other revelations in this thread makes him an ass that I wouldn't enjoy playing. So I wouldn't.

Taking way too long to set your models each and every turn is asinine. Especially in a "friendly" game.

 techsoldaten wrote:

It's with his zombies and the way he lines them up. When I have seen him play, he is meticulous about the placement of models. He creates 2 lines of zombies that occupy almost the width of the board, and has everything else marching behind them. He creates gaps between these two lines for units from his army to shoot through. You can tell those gaps are very strategic, they allow other models to shoot at opponents at specific angles that allow focus fire.

The front line troops are being used to provide cover for the ones behind them. When he loses some models, he's spreading them out the next turn, and looking very carefully at the placement. He's putting his head near the board sometimes into order to figure out true line of sight from one unit to the next. This is why his glasses keep falling off on the table, and why his movement phases take forever.

The result is that anything is his army that matters always has a cover save. There's no way to shoot at his other units without shooting through them first. It was watching the way he handled his zombies that made me want to start adding cultists to my own.

It's unfortunate that he acts in an unpleasant manner, as it appears he's a good tactical player and peeps could actually learn some tricks from observing his games.

Like you've been saying all along, forget about his personal nature and focus on how to beat him. As a few of us have already pointed out, get your units into assault with his zombies so they cannot be Baleflamed (or vector striked) ASAP, and have a few units in your backfield that have a punchers chance in bringing down a heldrake or 2.

I asked before, but do not recall you giving an answer (though I may have missed it). What army do you play?

 Voidwraith wrote:

It's unfortunate that he acts in an unpleasant manner, as it appears he's a good tactical player and peeps could actually learn some tricks from observing his games.

Like you've been saying all along, forget about his personal nature and focus on how to beat him. As a few of us have already pointed out, get your units into assault with his zombies so they cannot be Baleflamed (or vector striked) ASAP, and have a few units in your backfield that have a punchers chance in bringing down a heldrake or 2.

I asked before, but do not recall you giving an answer (though I may have missed it). What army do you play?

I play Chaos, but that's besides the point. The Chaos players at my FLGS don't really play each other, we're heavily outnumbered by Tau / Eldar / SMs / IG as it is. There's really never going to be a situation where I play that guy.

You are getting to my original point, I don't have any interest in telling him how to play or trying to chase him away. I put this in the tactics forum to discuss tactics for how to beat him. What I am really seeking is some advice I could give to other players, it's actually an interesting tactical question. I have gotten some already, but this remains an interesting topic for other reasons.

That guy is playing by the rules with a legal list, and he is an above average player in just about any way I can think of. TBH, I have learned a few things by watching him play. At the same time, he has a challenging personality and is getting a lot of attention because of the nature of his list and the outcomes of games.

More than anything, people's responses in this thread have been not to play him. That's not the point of the thread, but it is an interesting reaction. Some of the other players at my FLGS have started talking about Chaos being OP and I can think of a couple times where someone refused games against other CSM players. So there's this question of managing people's reactions. I mean, I can get some quad guns and leave them at the store, but how do you deal with people getting pissed playing against a legal list and refusing games? That's a whole other side to this that's worth discussing since it has the potential to ruin the environment of an otherwise friendly community.

Anyways, yes, I guess I should just repeat that I appreciate everyone's advice and would like to keep the conversation going. This doesn't affect me directly since I won't be playing him, but it does in terms of understanding people's anxieties.

From the guy's reaction to criticism, it still sounds like he doesn't know what to do in social situations.

However, as I don't know jack about aspergers, so I could be off.