Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 20:57:39
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
By Alexandra TURCAT
- France's Socialist government on Thursday claimed a last-gasp victory in its battle to prevent a controversial stand-up comic from launching a nationwide tour with a show widely condemned as anti-Semitic.
Less than two hours before the comic, Dieudonne M'Bala M'Bala, was due to take the stage in the western city of Nantes, France's highest administrative court, the Council of State, overturned a local judge's ruling that the show should be allowed to go ahead.
The decision was greeted with boos and jeers by hundreds of the comedian's fans who had assembled outside the Zenith theatre in anticipation of watching a performer the government has branded a "pedlar of hate" and who has been repeatedly convicted under anti-racism legislation.
Interior Minister Manuel Valls, who has led the campaign to deny the comedian, who goes by his first name Dieudonne, a platform in France, hailed the ruling as a victory for the country's fundamental values.
"We cannot tolerate hatred of others, racism, anti-Semitism or holocaust denial," Valls said. "That is not France and the highest (administrative) court in the land has said as much and has said it clearly. This is a victory for the Republic."
That viewed was echoed by the head of the European Jewish Congress who hailed the ruling as "a triumph for the values of democracy."
"To remove a platform for hate and a stage for racism is in the best interests of the state and its citizens," said Dr. Moshe Kantor in a statement
Lawyers for the government had argued that the fundamentally racist nature of the comedian's act meant it could not be afforded protection under France's constitutional provisions on freedom of speech.
But their arguments were rejected by Nantes judge Jean-Francois Molla in a ruling earlier in the day that would have made it very difficult for other cities to ban Dieudonne from performing in their theatres.
Molla said that a perceived risk to public order could not be used to "justify as radical a measure as banning the show".
But judge Bernard Stirn of the Council of State said in his decision, a copy of which was obtained by AFP, that "the reality and gravity of the risk of trouble to public order" was "established".
The Council of State's decision to uphold the ban on Dieudonne in Nantes leaves the rest of a tour which is scheduled to run until June in doubt, although planned dates in neighbouring Belgium and Switzerland are expected to go ahead in line with recent legal rulings in those countries.
The decision marks a landmark break with legal precedent in France, where previous attempts to ban Dieudonne from performing foundered against constitutional provisions on free speech which were famously articulated by the philosopher Voltaire's maxim: "I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Dieudonne's lawyer, Jacques Verdier, said Thursday that a ban on his client's performances was ridiculous given that a film of Dieudonne's latest show, entitled The Wall, had already been posted online.
"You are seeking to ban a show that is already in the public domain," Verdier told the court in Nantes.
Preview performances of The Wall in Paris included a sketch in which the comedian mimed urinating against a wall. He then reveals that it was the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem.
He also directs volleys of abuse at prominent French Jewish performers, rounding off one rant about radio presenter Patrick Cohen with the observation: "Gas chambers ... a shame."
In court, Dieudonne's lawyer also rejected suggestions that the "quenelle" -- a stiff-arm gesture that has become his signature and helped fuel his fame -- had anti-Semitic overtones.
The comedian could not be held responsible for incidents in which some of his fans have been pictured doing the quenelle at Auschwitz or outside synagogues in France, the lawyer argued.
The quenelle, which involves holding the right arm straight while pointing it towards the ground and touching the right bicep with the left hand, has been described as a disguised Nazi salute.
Dieudonne's supporters argue that it is simply a light-hearted "up yours" gesture directed at France's establishment.
In Nantes Thursday night, hundreds of angry fans rallied near the theatre shouting "Valls resign!" and "Free speech!", watched over by police. But Dieudonne on his Facebook page called on them to disperse.
"They are looking for a physical confrontation so return to your homes singing the Marseillaise!", he wrote referring to the spirited French national anthem.
Dieudonne, now 47, started his career as part of a double act with a Jewish childhood friend, Elie Semoun.
But the pair have been estranged for years and the content of Dieudonne's act has since veered from satirising racism to celebrating and promoting it, his critics say.
|
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 21:15:03
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Legendary Master of the Chapter
|
The Gas Chambers...A Shame remark is pretty poor taste. It might count as hate speech, depending on the context. Still, I would prefer they had allowed him to perform and then mocked the hell out of him instead of banning him. Or better yet, sentence him to 10 years of touring with Dane Cook.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 21:16:38
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
The comedian could not be held responsible for incidents in which some of his fans have been pictured doing the quenelle at Auschwitz or outside synagogues in France, the lawyer argued.
The quenelle, which involves holding the right arm straight while pointing it towards the ground and touching the right bicep with the left hand, has been described as a disguised Nazi salute.
What a dick move.
|
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 21:56:11
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
|
I'd been sort of following this story about Dieudonne. And things like this don't help either;
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25537686
Nicolas Anelka says he is "neither racist nor anti-Semitic" after using his official Twitter account to defend a controversial goal celebration.
France's sports minister accused West Brom striker Anelka of a "disgusting anti-Semitic" reaction to scoring during Saturday's 3-3 draw at West Ham.
Anelka made the "quenelle" gesture - described as an inverted Nazi salute.
"Of course, I am neither racist nor anti-Semitic and I fully assume my gesture," Anelka, 34, tweeted.
"The meaning of quenelle is anti-system. I do not know what religion has to do with this story."
The French government is trying to ban comedian Dieudonne M'bala M'bala's shows over his use of the gesture and Anelka confirmed he did it in support of the performer.
"This is a dedication to Dieudonne," Anelka said on Twitter.
"With regard to the ministers who give their own interpretations of my quenelle, they are the ones that create confusion and controversy without knowing what it really means. I ask people not to be duped by the media."
French Sport Minister Valerie Fourneyron criticised Anelka and the incident is being investigated by the Football Assocation.
Fourneyron wrote: "Anelka's gesture is a shocking provocation, disgusting. There's no place for anti-Semitism on the football field."
Albion caretaker manager Keith Downing said Anelka was "totally surprised" by the furore, despite the French government announcing on Friday that it was studying legal options to ban performances by Dieudonne.
"It has got nothing to do with what is being said," Downing said. "It is absolute rubbish."
Jewish groups had complained to French president Francois Hollande about Dieudonne's trademark gesture, which they described as a "Nazi salute in reverse". They linked it to increasing anti-Semitic remarks and acts in France.
In return Dieudonne has threatened to sue the groups for calling it a Nazi salute. He calls it "la quenelle" - a word for a fish dumpling - and says it stands for his anti-Zionist and anti-establishment views, rather than anti-Semitism.
Anti-discrimination body Kick It Out said it was in contact with partners in England and France over the Anelka incident and offered support to the Football Association in its inquiries.
Former France international Anelka scored his first two goals for the club in Saturday's draw with the Hammers. He had not played since the 4-1 defeat by former club Liverpool on 26 October.
Nor this;
That is a fan of Dieudonne wearing an Arafat t-shirt, performing the gesture outside the Ozar Hatorah Jewish school in Toulouse (made infamous by Mohammed Merah, who murdered three children and a teacher in March 2012)
kronk wrote:The comedian could not be held responsible for incidents in which some of his fans have been pictured doing the quenelle at Auschwitz or outside synagogues in France, the lawyer argued.
The quenelle, which involves holding the right arm straight while pointing it towards the ground and touching the right bicep with the left hand, has been described as a disguised Nazi salute.
What a dick move.
Well said that man
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 22:12:00
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
I get it now. The French army wasn't surrendering, they were just trying to do this weird salute and dropped their rifles...
|
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 23:24:13
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Bathing in elitist French expats fumes
|
What bothers me about him is that for a while he was very much into suing others for racism when it suited him. So being black is a protected "race" but Jews are fair game? Not cool at all.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 23:38:18
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
|
Frazzled wrote:
Dieudonne's lawyer, Jacques Verdier, said Thursday that a ban on his client's performances was ridiculous given that a film of Dieudonne's latest show, entitled The Wall, had already been posted online.
Given that I can find just about every conceivable horror possible on the Internet, the lawyer might want to find a more compelling argument.
"You want to ban a live real family performance of the Aristocrat?!?! But that's ridiculous, it's already all over the Internet!!!''
|
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/09 23:59:24
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Member of the Ethereal Council
|
"Lawyers for the government had argued that the fundamentally racist nature of the comedian's act meant it could not be afforded protection under France's constitutional provisions on freedom of speech."
Listen, France Freedom of speech does not allow you to cherry pick what you can an cannot say. Or else it is state sanctioned speech
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 00:05:12
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Lieutenant Colonel
|
the ironic thing being, I had never heard of this guy till now...
so whatever you might think of him (i think hes a douche stirring up the pot to get rich and famous)
the french have merely HELPED him on that quest with all this popularity...
sometimes its best to ignore the stupid people until they fade into obscurity...
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 00:18:53
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
|
Ridiculing him into irrelevance would've worked better than a banhammer, methinks.
Oh well.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 00:32:06
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
|
Bran Dawri wrote:Ridiculing him into irrelevance would've worked better than a banhammer, methinks.
Oh well.
Successful comedians are constantly ridiculed by whichever side of the comic audience doesn't like them and has access to the Internet. Mocking him will give him publicity, and might slightly reduce his income. This puts a stop to it, entirely, and thus obviously works better. Automatically Appended Next Post: easysauce wrote:
the french have merely HELPED him on that quest with all this popularity...
Everywhere but in France, so, why should they care? Automatically Appended Next Post: hotsauceman1 wrote:Listen, France Freedom of speech does not allow you to cherry pick what you can an cannot say. Or else it is state sanctioned speech
Actually, yes, it does.
Wiki, Freedom of Speech wrote:In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, as with libel, slander, obscenity, sedition (including, for example inciting ethnic hatred), copyright violation, revelation of information that is classified or otherwise.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/10 00:35:16
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 01:32:52
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Bathing in elitist French expats fumes
|
And the thing about the quenelle is... if it is not anti-semitic but a wider anti-system symbol... why are people specifically taking pictures of themselves doing it in front of Auschwitz and jewish schools... but practically nowhere else?
And yes, good little soccer player... sure you're against the system that you use to make millions off of your fans. Sure you are.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 01:35:26
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Lieutenant Colonel
|
because they only care about french anti semitism now?
because hes actually now more popular in france, even more so as since he is the forbidden fruit so to speak?
because it makes them look anti free speech?
ect
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 01:36:10
Subject: Re:France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Hangin' with Gork & Mork
|
They can ban a comedian for being anti-Semitic be we can't ban Jeff Dunham for not being funny.
|
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 01:38:03
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
|
I love hearing people say they're not anti-semetic just anti-zionist. There's a reason the word oxymoron contains the word moron
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/10 01:38:47
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 01:47:13
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
|
Well, yeah, that's the point.
because hes actually now more popular in france, even more so as since he is the forbidden fruit so to speak?
More known doesn't mean more popular. And popularity is rather useless when you can't profit from it.
because it makes them look anti free speech?
How they look as a Nation is probably not as high a priority as dealing with the massive ethnic issues that plagues their society.
|
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 03:41:51
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
Bathing in elitist French expats fumes
|
Kovnik Obama wrote:
More known doesn't mean more popular. And popularity is rather useless when you can't profit from it.
How they look as a Nation is probably not as high a priority as dealing with the massive ethnic issues that plagues their society.
He can profit from that popularity plenty. France has been looking for a voice of the far right that is popular and mouthy. Marine Le Pen just doesn't jive with the male population as much as her father used to.
As for the ethnic issues... well their Empire has finally come home to roost. Sometimes revenge takes a generation or two. Snark aside, it's the same issues as with our dear Charter of Values, just writ large. It's a big complex mess, and people insist on simple solutions.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 04:04:11
Subject: Re:France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
|
I'm always surprised by some of the restrictions other countries place on free speech where they are otherwise equivalent rights-wise; Canada stands out as a surprising example.
|
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 04:05:26
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Legendary Master of the Chapter
|
Well the Nazi Hand Slaute is actually a roman slaute. Dang it Nazi Germany you ruined all the cool stuff. Blondes, Symbols, Satanism, science, and making fun of brunettes.
|
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 06:48:28
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Lady of the Lake
|
I really didn't expect this.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 08:55:55
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
|
Mathieu Raymond wrote:And the thing about the quenelle is... if it is not anti-semitic but a wider anti-system symbol... why are people specifically taking pictures of themselves doing it in front of Auschwitz and jewish schools... but practically nowhere else.
Because it is a BS excuse
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 09:45:17
Subject: Re:France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
|
Ahtman wrote:They can ban a comedian for being anti-Semitic be we can't ban Jeff Dunham for not being funny.
And that is the down side of the US's power an money. We get to send all of our gak comedians and musicians to you and you have nowhere to pass yours on too.
Ouze wrote:I'm always surprised by some of the restrictions other countries place on free speech where they are otherwise equivalent rights-wise; Canada stands out as a surprising example.
And I'm always surprised on what the US lets people get away with under the guise of free speech. It is a different attitude towards the rights of the individual vs the rights of society.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 09:47:10
insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 10:52:16
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
Anime High School
|
Muh freedoms!
I wanted to say something about how free speech and expression is so great, but then I realized how stupid that would sound.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 11:53:40
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
|
Whilst his comments were distasteful, there is no such thing as a sacred cow and the French government is essentially playing favourites.
|
DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 12:24:25
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Krellnus wrote:Whilst his comments were distasteful, there is no such thing as a sacred cow and the French government is essentially playing favourites.
Wait, is discrimination and hate speech suddenly not a bad thing?
Whitey is going to love this!
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 12:24:40
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 13:07:54
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
|
Soladrin wrote: Krellnus wrote:Whilst his comments were distasteful, there is no such thing as a sacred cow and the French government is essentially playing favourites.
Wait, is discrimination and hate speech suddenly not a bad thing?
Whitey is going to love this!
Well no, but since he's (at least trying to be) a comedian the topic should not be off limits, if he crosses your line, then don't pay any attention to him, simple enough.
|
DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 13:13:10
Subject: Re:France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
So I can say whatever I want online as long as I put a  at the end of it?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 13:16:31
Subject: Re:France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Ahtman wrote:They can ban a comedian for being anti-Semitic be we can't ban Jeff Dunham for not being funny. Silence! I keel you! feth me! 2-165-1. Impressive!
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 13:17:13
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 13:17:59
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
|
hotsauceman1 wrote:"Lawyers for the government had argued that the fundamentally racist nature of the comedian's act meant it could not be afforded protection under France's constitutional provisions on freedom of speech."
Listen, France Freedom of speech does not allow you to cherry pick what you can an cannot say. Or else it is state sanctioned speech
Evidently it does - aka you have freedom of speech as long as it is Goodspeech( TM*)
I think he's a racist and should be condemned, but if this were the US he should have the right to say it. Now this is France so I won't knock them for that, especially as they have that separation of church and state thing down perfectly.
*A WienerDog Productions trademark @2009
|
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/10 13:34:45
Subject: France wins battle to ban 'anti-Semitic' comedian.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Krellnus wrote: Soladrin wrote: Krellnus wrote:Whilst his comments were distasteful, there is no such thing as a sacred cow and the French government is essentially playing favourites.
Wait, is discrimination and hate speech suddenly not a bad thing?
Whitey is going to love this!
Well no, but since he's (at least trying to be) a comedian the topic should not be off limits, if he crosses your line, then don't pay any attention to him, simple enough.
Kind of missing the point then aren't you? Because the problem isn't me having to ignore him, it's the people that do listen to him.
|
|
 |
 |
|