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it's a shame the 'nid codex is the apparent dissapointment it is. I was hoping it'd be intresting. if this book was rushed that's terriable. Tyranids are one of the codexes it's most important NOT to Rush IMHO. as the bugs by their differnt nature really need some time taken to really get right as they're somewhat radicly differnt from the norm

I'm fairly disappointed from what I'm reading about the state of the new codex, but only because, and I'll echo more than a few people on this thread, they put SO little imagination into updating the old codex. People have been complaining about the old codex for YEARS. It was borderline unplayable (in the tourny scene) and yet they didn't really change or expand the units in creative ways. 6th edition psychic powers gave the codex a big boost, but now they've taken that away, and the lists that people have purchased models to fill no longer seem as viable. Always a bummer...

Even worse to me is something like the Trygon's Subterranean Assault ability, which was always close to unusable because the unit you'd like to enter play through the tunnel may make it's reserve roll before or on the same turn as the Trygon, was I guess carried over without being fixed. How does a company think it's a good decision to carry a near-broken ability over to a new codex? I know it wasn't THE thing people complained about from the last codex, but if you're planning on taking away deployment options (no more mycetic spores), you figure they'd want to make sure the options they are providing are actually viable.

It wouldn't be soooo bad, but the Forgeworld Hades Breaching Drill has the exact rule that the Trygon should/could have (you declare a unit to be arriving through the tunnel, and it comes into play from reserves the turn AFTER the Breaching Drill arrives on the table...so simple it's brilliant). If they were going to copy/paste something, it should have been the first paragraph from that unit's Subterranean Assault.

Personally, I never played with Tervigons, so for me the sky isn't falling for my current collection, but I honestly do not know if I'm going to buy this lazily conceived codex.

Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?

Explain it to me, please, someone. Anyone!

Don't play nids [and never will - just not my kind of army] but I'm also disappointed that the writing of the codex appears so lackluster. I think it's important that the xenos armies build and play significantly differently to other armies. Bolter vs. bolter and power armour vs. power armour gets boring really quickly.

Dark Eldar, for example, despite taking a big nerf with 6th, still play completely differently to any other army but were still competitive. Also lots of different builds were viable - I almost never see the same DE lists when reading batreps etc. THAT was a well thought out and well written codex.

I think the comparisons to the Chaos Marine dex are valid - lots of WTF units and useless abilities [e.g. Raptors with blind].

My friend was thinking of starting a nids army but that's unlikely now, which is a shame.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?

Explain it to me, please, someone. Anyone!

Well, they're one unit that is less likely to self-destruct out of the synapse range than they were in the old codex, so arguably they got better. (Not that they still would be good or actually needed a cost increase.)

From what I've seen.
People who have codex in hand say it sucks to High Heaven and will be a "friendly game only" army.

People who haven't seen the codex say "It can be great, just wait."

Hmmm......

 MWHistorian wrote:
From what I've seen.
People who have codex in hand say it sucks to High Heaven and will be a "friendly game only" army.

People who haven't seen the codex say "It can be great, just wait."

Hmmm......

Just what we need... more generalisations!

I have the codex in hand. It's not great, as mentioned above - it's lazy, much of it cut and paste, and embarrassments like the Harpy picture, where they couldn't be arsed to commission a new one, or the Trygon Tunnel, where they couldn't be arsed to make a rule that was playable. But... I"m looking forward to the next few games.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?

Explain it to me, please, someone. Anyone!

They lost the auto-self eating rule? Maybe? Then they gained it again because of synapse? But at least its a 50/50? I dont know! I really, really dont know...

GW has a long history of producing codexes and armybooks that are wildly variable in their quality of rules. The recent high elf book has a ton of cool stuff and can support many different lists while the lizardmen book was boring as hell.

This has happened time and time again. The GW design studio is terribly inconsistent. Every codex is a crap shoot for the players. I cant remember when it hasnt been this way.

The sky is actually falling!

No, really - this time its true!!!!

Sad days for the nids and their fans.

Some people is claiming that, perhaps, someone will find a "combo" or a brutally overpowered unit/gear that will "save" the army. Like the Heldrakes for Chaos or the inv save 2+ for Daemons "saved" what looked like awful, terrible, disgusting, lame, boring books. In the eyes of some people, at least, that would be enough.

As a not-competitive player I couldn´t care less. Not that I played my tyranids for a while, but I had hopes. The changes that concern me are easy to analize: I just need to look at my units.
-> tervigons, hive guard, tyranid prime, zoanthropes: nerfed. Some of them to the point of being completely useless.
-> tyranid warriors, genestealers, lictors: unchanged, still useless.
-> shrieks & raveners: not bad, but clearly not good enough.
-> Imgarl genestealers: nope.
-> termagaunts: the same. Nerfed by the nerf on my tervigon.

Conclusion? I need to change most of my army if I want to "compete". And most lists I can think of will not last three turns against an average player. Zero internal balance. Zero external balance. Total lack of play testing, variety, quality or options. Search for the broken unit and spam it, if there is such broken unit.

No, thanks. I don´t like the word "boycott". I prefer the expression "voting with my wallet". I am not getting new units and I am not getting the Codex of one of my favorite armies. If someone wants to play against my nids, I will use the 5th edition codex with some house rules to make the game fair.

I get it you know GW HATES NIDZ COOL, but being someone who never played in 5th and had to hear that they couldn't deal with vechile spam,

I picked up in 6th thinking cool i can come up with something. So i do a bit of research find a list i like retool it and then sit and wait almsot 2 years as i watch other BAD dex's become top tier.
Then nids rolls around and BAM back to back usless codex's?

If your goal here is to promote your product and make money, hell i wont even go into any other unit,

lets say your promoting just the Crone flyer to make money. OK why would i wana buy a single crone when for less money and in a different army i can down 1 per turn using a aegis IN EVERY OTHER ARMY???

Not even kidding but, does anyone know anyone on the GW marketing team? How the hell do you sell this crap?

 Mywik wrote:
The sky is actually falling!

The sky is not falling (yet).

But it is a really crappy book.

madd_leeroy wrote:
To me this just reads that you are disappointed that the new book isn't OP tyranids so that you can win some games.

You just need to play smarter.

Yet another reading comprehension fail post, how can you all of you just answer the long and rational arguments that are presented to you with such false "no, you" type simplifications and not feel childish?

The book is bland, badly balanced and dumbed down. It is like 5th edition book in a way that it has a few good units in the sea of bad ones, only it's worse because it removed possible tactics, playstyles and flavor. It is worse for casual play, for competitive play, for narrative play, whatever. Even at tiny things, example scything talons loosing rerolls - it makes nids worse power wise but first and foremost (for me) it make them loose the deadly aura, feeling that you can't escape if fex or sth starts hammering you. Not to menion the real crap like the loss of pods, well read the Swarmlord entry or Hive Mind fluff of how outwordly intelligent they are but now can hardly figure out how to deliver units to CC now other than making them walk the entire field under fire. Or making them appear weak, how does that suit all your narrative when the supposedly great threat turns out to be more target practice than a worthy opponent?

Oh don't forget to field a full genestealer army, some Pyrovores, maybe Warriors. You just need to play smarter.

madd_leeroy wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
To the guy in here calling us all powergamers for being less then impressed with the dex, yet has whiteknighted the new dex all the way through each new release of information, simply because it has given us a cheaper nidzilla monobuild (you know who you are) you should maybe take a look at how hypocritical and irrelevant your opinion comes across as.

Powergaming in its purest form is being happy with this dex and its points reduction of the MC kits with dwindling popularity (oh everyone has their Tervigons / Trygons / Hive Guard glued up? Let's nerf em and gives buffs to Tyrannofex / Mawloc / Tyrant Guard) , simply because you feel that it might give you a stronger competitive monobuild, and that this is a worthy trade to you for the loss of so much of the competitive options and strategies available in the last dex, combined with the addition of none.

To put into perspective, this new codex literally has less units in it than the last one!! We had 4 things taken out and only 3 put in. The 4 things we lost were units that either added many strategic options or had unique rules and flavor (mostly both), but the things we gained were a bad Harpy knockoff and a Hive Guard replacement. It's even been revealed that the units weren't taken out because of strategic gameplay, so without care for their own customers these units were removed to get rid of a point of revenue for Chapterhouse that was being created by GW's laziness when it came to making a model for the unit.

The worst is the people in here "b-b-b-b-b-but TAU DEX !! ELDAR DEX!!!!" . Yeah the comparison isn't even accurate anymore. We already know what this dex does. It does what the last one does, just worse. The whiners who complained about the Eldar dex had alot of untrod ground to work out, and by release a lot of open mouths have been fed and people had come around. This is almost the exact opposite of whats happened here, we know our dex back to front, and upon release the community has exploded with negative feedback, with people far smarter than the dex-hoppers and Eldar-skeptics saying that this release is terrible.


I'll be boycotting this release. It won't be hard to, it's barely even by choice. I don't need any of the new models and there is no way in hell I'm stupid enough to pay $80 for a book that has been rushed to publication, with a ruleset described in its current state by the playtesting team as "keeps getting walked over by every army", but still pushed into print by GW to move some packaged Spacedragon units.

This makes me sad. The only person who will miss out will be you by not playing a great faction.

i have not seen the new book, Yes it's only £20 in the UK which isn't a lot for me, so i will buy it even though i don't play nids. But there will be competitive options and various tactics that can be used to defeat any arms. Peole seem to forget at the heart of the gamneplay is rock, paper scissors. No if Rock get horrendously overpowered i will lose if i am scissors, but not if i take paper!

Uhhhh no? I didn't say that at all, I'm hardly jst about to chuck my nids in the bin... I'm just not going to SUPPORT the NEW RELEASE by buying the models and an overpriced codex that has just been released with stupid rules. I can pdf the rules and most the new models are mediocre gameplay wise at best. Somewhere down the track I might pick up an Exocrine, but I won't be letting my purchase contribute to the first week or even month sales statistics. I'm not going to put my money towards justifying their decision to release a terrible quality product, and whether or not you play nids you should probably agree with the sentiment.

 SHUPPET wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
To the guy in here calling us all powergamers for being less then impressed with the dex, yet has whiteknighted the new dex all the way through each new release of information, simply because it has given us a cheaper nidzilla monobuild (you know who you are) you should maybe take a look at how hypocritical and irrelevant your opinion comes across as.

Powergaming in its purest form is being happy with this dex and its points reduction of the MC kits with dwindling popularity (oh everyone has their Tervigons / Trygons / Hive Guard glued up? Let's nerf em and gives buffs to Tyrannofex / Mawloc / Tyrant Guard) , simply because you feel that it might give you a stronger competitive monobuild, and that this is a worthy trade to you for the loss of so much of the competitive options and strategies available in the last dex, combined with the addition of none.

To put into perspective, this new codex literally has less units in it than the last one!! We had 4 things taken out and only 3 put in. The 4 things we lost were units that either added many strategic options or had unique rules and flavor (mostly both), but the things we gained were a bad Harpy knockoff and a Hive Guard replacement. It's even been revealed that the units weren't taken out because of strategic gameplay, so without care for their own customers these units were removed to get rid of a point of revenue for Chapterhouse that was being created by GW's laziness when it came to making a model for the unit.

The worst is the people in here "b-b-b-b-b-but TAU DEX !! ELDAR DEX!!!!" . Yeah the comparison isn't even accurate anymore. We already know what this dex does. It does what the last one does, just worse. The whiners who complained about the Eldar dex had alot of untrod ground to work out, and by release a lot of open mouths have been fed and people had come around. This is almost the exact opposite of whats happened here, we know our dex back to front, and upon release the community has exploded with negative feedback, with people far smarter than the dex-hoppers and Eldar-skeptics saying that this release is terrible.


I'll be boycotting this release. It won't be hard to, it's barely even by choice. I don't need any of the new models and there is no way in hell I'm stupid enough to pay $80 for a book that has been rushed to publication, with a ruleset described in its current state by the playtesting team as "keeps getting walked over by every army", but still pushed into print by GW to move some packaged Spacedragon units.

This makes me sad. The only person who will miss out will be you by not playing a great faction.

i have not seen the new book, Yes it's only £20 in the UK which isn't a lot for me, so i will buy it even though i don't play nids. But there will be competitive options and various tactics that can be used to defeat any arms. Peole seem to forget at the heart of the gamneplay is rock, paper scissors. No if Rock get horrendously overpowered i will lose if i am scissors, but not if i take paper!

Uhhhh no? I didn't say that at all, I'm hardly jst about to chuck my nids in the bin... I'm just not going to SUPPORT the NEW RELEASE by buying the models and an overpriced codex that has just been released with stupid rules. I can pdf the rules and most the new models are mediocre gameplay wise at best. Somewhere down the track I might pick up an Exocrine, but I won't be letting my purchase contribute to the first week or even month sales statistics. I'm not going to put my money towards justifying their decision to release a terrible quality product, and whether or not you play nids you should probably agree with the sentiment.

Pretty much this. I worked alot of overtime through the holidays to allow myself to splurge on this release. I was fully prepared to buy the codex, 1-2 flyers, 1-2 exocrines, and random filler (termagants for the Tervs) today. But seeing how crappy the codex was put out, there is no chance in hell i will reward GW for such a lazy and poor performance. I can think of a hundred ways to make the Nid units "interesting" without being overpowering and we just get cut and paste + nerfs.

I will continue to play Nids, but I will wait until someone finds a usable Torrent and gives it to me and Ill just take some sculpting clay and make a gun mount for the top of my Tervigons to be Exocrines. Ill spend the money on something else.

My FLGS put the codex on sale last night.

I went in with my old dex, bought the new one, and stayed there to read over the new book/chat with the store owner. He plays DE fyi.

First thing we did was a direct side-by-side of rules. Synapse stayed the same. Instintive behavior is one of the major nerfs bar none.
This trend of rules either not changing at all, or getting flat out worse continued for most things, with a few things here and there that became a bit better, such as fleet coming with AG.

Cost wise only a few things actually got cheaper. Gants cost a point less (woo..), but all of their upgrades cost more. And since tervigons no longer share sacs/AG, the effective cost of the unit went up.
Hormagaunts went down a point, became -slightly- faster, but losing the re-rolls on scything talons reduced their combat effectiveness.

Warriors didnt change hardly at all. Only thing they "gained" is the ability to mix and match weapons. Speaking of warriors, Primes lost a wound, got more expensive, and all of their upgrades got more expensive. They are strictly inferior to a SM captain point-for-point.

Tyrants went down a bit, but their overall utility went down because the Tyranid powers are really lacklustre. CSM Tzeench lacklustre. So basically they are slightly less expensive than they were before, but are largely inferior to what they where. Ans seeing as how not everyone spammed Flying tyrants, those of us who used walking ones with a 2+ save have lost a major tactic in our army. Note that Ymgarl factor only functions in CC, for those who said this could work.

Fexes went down in cost, but they are still strictly inferior to MC in other codexes. Compared to riptides they are less durable, have worse shooting, have a chance to attack their own unit (about a 40% chance all said and done), No personal access to FNP, no Inv save. Then compared to wraithlords (Lord, not Knight), they are ENTIRELY inferior. Worse in -every- respect possible aside from armor save. Then there is that other MC everyone forgets about, the Dreadknight. Worse once again in every way.

Mawlocs got 'better' because they ignore cover with terror from the deep. But now, unless they are hitting a unit that is ENTIRELY under the large blast, they will mishap every time. This is because the thing is on an oval base, which isa 1/3 larger than a large blast. so went down in points, and a sideways shift play wise.

Tervigons went up in cost, became more expensive to field as troops, synaptic backlash effects a larger range (max 30", due to size of base), had its upgrades become more expensive, and lost psychic utility, due to less and inferior powers. Nerf. Not unexpected, just not to this degree.

These are just the things that stuck out in my mind from yesterday. I've already come to an agreement with all but 2 of my gaming group to allow me to continue using the 5e rules, the other two are just looking forward to having an easier go at beating me.
In the end, all this has done is motivated me to finally drag my old farsight army out of the closet, which has been sitting there since the 5e tyranid codex dropped. I truely hope that SOMEONE finds that one rule and relays to everyone "HEY WE MISSED THIS AWESOME THING EVERYONE!! DO THIS!!!!"

My suggestion is for everyone to follow what I did. Buy the codex, read it in store, and if you don't like it then return it. If it's a FLGS make sure to have him relay back to their GW rep about how people are returning not just models, but entire codex, due to poorly written rules. If it's a GW store, and you are ok with doing such a thing, make as much of a vocal stink about how bad you the book is.

madd_leeroy wrote:
To me this just reads that you are disappointed that the new book isn't OP tyranids so that you can win some games.

You just need to play smarter.

To me this reads as someone so out of touch with reality that they think ignorant, snide remarks are a good idea to make towards people who are well informed and practiced in the area of his ignorance.

You just need to post smarter.

 WarOne wrote:

Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?

Please do! I despise Tyranids, and honestly couldn't be happier that the new codex is apparently putting people off. I sincerely hope that it becomes the least played army, possibly being replaced in the GW production priority list by Sisters of Battle.

It's an atrocious army, I don't generally enjoy playing games against it, and I'm looking forward to a few years of not having to deal with bugs.

Just told my wife her Doom, Spores and most importantly her beloved Parasite are gone from the book and that her hiveguard got nerfed.

Her reaction was a long sigh followed by 'so, tell me more about Hordes'...

It's a shame, it really is.

I wonder what will befall my orks, and whether it's just better to shelve the lot, until we get a swing of the pendulum in editions to come, back to smooth play and some attempted balance between the books. If GW wants to ask me to pay thousands for their armies, the least they can do is provide a system wherein there is no penalty to which army I choose in terms of post sale-service and enjoyment of the game.

I also wonder just how difficult it will be to take my orks, dark eldar and my wife's tyranids and make them fit for mantic's Warpath or some other company's free rules.

Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 WarOne wrote:

Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?

Please do! I despise Tyranids, and honestly couldn't be happier that the new codex is apparently putting people off. I sincerely hope that it becomes the least played army, possibly being replaced in the GW production priority list by Sisters of Battle.

It's an atrocious army, I don't generally enjoy playing games against it, and I'm looking forward to a few years of not having to deal with bugs.

^ Definition of a troll post. I don't play Nids [also a Sisters players] but can sympathise with fellow gamers when they get the shaft from GW. Less diversity of armies is a bad thing. Try to think how you would feel if your Sisters got a lazily put together and bland codex. Actually, they did, as did Chaos Marines [my other army], which is why I feel for Nid players.

Jeez this is disappointing, I know every new codex shouldn't be overpowered, but the 5th edition nid codex wasn't very good to start with, and seems to have gotten NERFED..

It's classic for gw to nerf old standbye units, not adding any powerful units seems pretty weird for them.

I don't even play nids, but I think they are a great element to the universe, and would have liked to see them more in games. Ohwell

What is this nerf to instinctive behaviour that I see people referencing but not explaining?

A combination of units attacking themselves and doing other stupid gak outside of Synapse, and our main Synapse units getting nerfed (Tervigon + Zoanthrope).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?

Explain it to me, please, someone. Anyone!

It lets new players build up their points values quicker with "free" models!

The instictive behaviour now comes with 3 tables.
Lurk on the result:
1-3 must fall back
4-5 seek cover there not slowed by dificult terrain, must take dangerous as normal, can shoot but if they do so only models inside terrain shoot, unit cannot charge
6- follows the rules of the roll above and gain stealth

Hunt
1-3 unit goes to the ground, if the unit contain 1 or more models with fearless treat the result as prowl
4-5 prowl cannot run and must instead shoot at the closest enemy unit within range and in line of sightof at least one model of the tyranid unit. if you cant see nothing you do nothing on the shooting phase, the unit cannot charge
6- follow the rules of prowl and gains preferred enemy

Feed
1-3 the unit suffer number of hits equal to the unit size. the S is used withthe majority represented on the unit (if drawn use the highest with Ap- wounds taken allow armour but not cover, after resolving causalties the unit do nothing else on that turn, units of single model treat this result as devour.

4-5devour in the shooting phase cannot run or shoot, if he can charge must do so againt the closest enemy visible possible if it cant declare charge, cant do nothing else on the assault phase

6- kill follow all rules of devour and gains rage rule.


Half the table is a bad thing already and you get stuck everywhere if they fail their ld tests.
Imagine a carnifex brood of 3 failling the ld test and got 50% chances to get mad and start killing itself eating 3x S9 wounds...

I don't like the new IB tables very much, but one minor bright spot is that it makes Gaunts slightly better at camping objectives without a Synapse babysitter.

None of the IB results force a unit to move in a particular direction. Some can force you to fall back or to charge, but none govern your movement like the 5th edition Lurk did.

So now Gaunts that fail an IB test have a 50/50 chance of staying where you want them to (whereas previously they would have had to move towards the nearest area terrain, meaning they would abandon any objective that was not located in area terrain).

Doesn't' make up for Carnifex Animosity, though.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 WarOne wrote:

Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?

Please do! I despise Tyranids, and honestly couldn't be happier that the new codex is apparently putting people off. I sincerely hope that it becomes the least played army, possibly being replaced in the GW production priority list by Sisters of Battle.

It's an atrocious army, I don't generally enjoy playing games against it, and I'm looking forward to a few years of not having to deal with bugs.

Maybe in the future, if you try REALLY hard, you won't come across as a complete jacka$$. I certainly hope so.

I had a buddy in Texas that could either run a Swarming nid list, with tons of gaunts (or whatever) or a nid zilla list with lots of big baddies.

You never knew what you'd face, and those were always tough games!

I hope nids don't get completely kicked in the jimmies with this release for his sake.

Edit: He's a decent painter, too!