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Hello, people!

As we know, 40K in its current shape is not... Ideal. Therefore, we in our local meta are writing a big document with fixes to all kinds of things.

Now, as of currently we only have SM, CSM, IG, GK, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, Space Wolves, DE, and a -tiny- bit of Eldar, so we have not given much thought to the races not present in our meta. Also, as you might see from the disproportional amount of fixes to certain things, this is only half-written, but I figured I could put it up anyway for scrutiny. Do refrain from pointing out what we have yet to adress, instead, give us your opinions on what we have adressed.

Wall of text inc!

Warhammer 40.000 6th Edition Amendments
General

Cover saves: Reworked. Cover now applies a fixed penalty for ranged To Hit rolls instead of giving a save. When firing at a model in cover, the firing unit receives a penalty to their ballistic skill depending on the cover of the target. However, the target no longer receives cover saves.
6+ cover: No penalty.
5+/4+ cover: -1 BS.
3+/2+ cover: -2 BS.
1+ or better cover: -3 BS.
Note that a To Hit roll of a 6 is always successful.

Vehicles: All vehicles now have an armour save. Vehicle armour save is determined as follows:
Basic save: 4+
Tank or Walker: +1
Armour 14: +1
Rear facing: -1
Open-topped: -1
Flyer: -1

Vehicles: Glancing hits removed. An Armour Penetration roll that equals the Armour Value of the target now has no effect. All effects that previously caused a glancing hit now remove a hull point instead.

Overwatch: Overwatch casualties are now removed by the owner of the targeted unit instead of from the front of the unit.

Grenades: Grenade distances are no longer a flat 8”. Instead, a model may throw a grenade a distance equal to twice their Strength value. So, a Guardsman would throw 6”, and a Warboss 10”.

Missile Launchers: Missile launchers, including those of all Imperial Chapters, Chaos Space Marines, and Eldar, now have Flakk Missiles built-in for free.

Transport vehicles: As long the vehicle remains stationary, a unit can exit a transport vehicle and launch an assault in the following Assault phase, regardless of if it is an Assault vehicle or not.

Reserves: All units are now permitted to launch an assault the turn they arrive from Reserves, assuming they did not Deep Strike.

Ignores Cover: Attacks with this special rule do not suffer any penalty to their To Hit rolls when firing at a unit in cover.

Terminator Armour: All forms of Terminator armour reduce the AP of incoming shooting attacks by 1. Thus, an AP2 Plasma Gun would be AP3, and an AP1 Meltagun would be AP2. Furthermore, all models in Terminator armour can now re-roll their armour save, though this time on a 4+ rather than a 2+

Relentless: The Relentless special rule now has an additional effect. A unit with this rule now ignores the Unwieldy special rule on their melee weapons, thus striking at their normal Initiative value.

Furious Charge: This special rule now grants +1 Initiative when assaulting as well as +1 Strength.

And They Shall Know No Fear: If a unit consists of models where some have the special rule, and some do not, the following now applies. If the unit is caught by a Sweeping Advance, the models without the special rule are destroyed, but the models with it are not. If the unit fails their Morale check to rally, the model/s with the special rule can choose to fail as well and continue falling back with the rest of the unit, or pass the test, in which case the model/s with the special rule leaves the unit and may act as normal.

Obscured: Vehicles must now be 50% covered by the terrain or intervening model instead of 25% to claim their 4+ cover save.

Tyranids
Pyrovores: Toughness increased to 5. Flamespurt granted the Torrent special rule.

Orks

Waaagh!: Waaagh no longer grants the Fleet special rule, and removes Fleet from all affected units for its duration, if they have it. Waaagh now allows all affected units to run and then assault in the same turn instead.

Nobz: All kinds of Nob and Flash Git models have their LD increased to 8.

Flash Gitz: More Dakka option removed. Snazzgun changed to Assault 2. Kaptin Badrukk now costs 100 points. Moved to Elites. One Flash Git may replace a weapon with a Power Klaw for 25 points. Can take a Battlewagon as a dedicated transport, though it may not have a Killkannon.

Lootas: Now cost 18 points per model. Moved to Heavy Support.

Tankbustas: Glory Hogs reworked. Now grants the Tank Hunters special rule to their ranged attacks. The unit may not target infantry while the unit has any vehicles in their line of sight.

Deffkoptas: Base points cost reduced to 30 points per model.

Shokk Attack Gun: The ‘Bzzap’ result no longer disables the Shock Attack Gun on the next turn.

Chaos Space Marines

Marks: Mark of Khorne no longer gives Counter-attack and rage, instead it gives +1 attack and Preferred Enemy against enemies within 18” Mark of Slaanesh now also gives Stubborn. Tzeentch gives a 5+ invulnerable save if the model lacks one.

Veterans of the Long War: Now grants hatred (Imperium) instead of hatred (Space Marines).

Horrors of the Warp: All infantry models except Cultists are now immune to Fear.

Black Legion: Black Legion models gain fearless, but must take Veterans of the Long War. Characters reroll failed to wound rolls in challenges. Chosen become Troops. Also gains (Black) Crusader. (Only included these as Black Legion rules are the only ones we were using, see this thread for the rest.)

Dedications of Chaos: A vehicle may be dedicated to a Chaos God. The price is 15 points for Khorne or Slaanesh, 20 for Tzeentch, and 25 for Nurgle. Khorne vehicles gain Assault Vehicle and Preferred Enemy against all enemies within 24” Slaanesh: Gains Fast. Enemies assaulting the vehicle do not receive a bonus attack. Vehicle does not gain initiative penalties for charging through cover. Nurgle: Gives It Will Not Die. To a vehicle that already has it, it gives a +1 to the roll. Tzeentch: Gains +1 to its Invulnerable save, and may re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when shooting.

Heldrake: Torrent removed from Baleflamer.

Possessed: Points reduced to 19 points per model.

Warp Talons: Now have Frag and Krak grenades. Points cost reduced to 23 points per model.

Chaos Land Raider: Transport capacity changed to 12 models.

Daemonic Possession: Risk of devouring passengers removed. Now grants Daemon special rule. Ignores Stunned on a 2+ as well as Shaken.

Khorne Berzerkers: Chainaxe is now baseline and both Berzerker and Champion models have an additional attack. Points reduced to 17 points per model.

Thousand Sons: If the majority of the unit consists of Thousand Sons, incoming attacks no longer use their Strength. Instead they need their AP score or better on a D6 to wound, always at least a 6+ and no better than 2+. So, a boltgun would wound on 5+ and a Lascannon on 2+. Fleshbane has no effect against the unit; instead Armourbane gains its effect to wound on 2+. Points reduced to 21 points per model.

Plague Marines: Points cost reduced to 22 points per model.

Noise Marines: Points cost reduced to 16 points per model.

Crazed: Treat the ‘Fire Frenzy’ result as ‘Blood Rage’ if the Helbrute was bought with two melee weapons. Treat the ‘Blood Rage’ result as ‘Fire Frenzy’ if the Helbrute was bought with no melee weapons.

Discipline of Tzeentch: Tzeentch’s Firestorm is now Large Blast, becomes AP4, and the strength is always at least 3. The extra hits generated are at the same strength and AP as the attack that generated them. Boon of Mutation replaced with Vortex of Chaos. Vortex of Chaos grants the caster and his unit Hammer of Wrath, and forces all assaulting models to pass a Strength test. Only those who pass may make their assault move. Doombolt now is Range 18”, S4 Ap5 Assault D3+2, blast. Breath of Chaos is now Warp Charge 1, Range: template S4 AP4 fleshbane & armourbane. Corrosion removed.

Grey Knights
Lord Kaldor Draigo: The Titansword is now AP2.

Necrons
Gauss: Rule reworked. Now removes a Hull Point when it previously would cause a Glancing Hit. Saves are taken as normal, assuming the AP allows it.


Some of these ideas have been stolen from the forum, such as the Glancing Hit removal from Troike, the grenade distance from Crickate, many of the Chaos fixes from Matt.Kingsley, the vehicle save system from CalgarsPimpHand, and so on. To all of you that we've stolen from, you know who you are, and you have our deep appreciation!

The change to relentless makes assault Terminators the single best assault unit in the game. The change to gauss, and also vehicle armor saves, makes necron anti-tank rather terrible.

 McNinja wrote:
The change to relentless makes assault Terminators the single best assault unit in the game. The change to gauss, and also vehicle armor saves, makes necron anti-tank rather terrible.

No. Necrons can glance things to death a bit too easily right now. They still strip off a hull point with each 6, but now you can save against it. Furthermore, against real biggies like Land Raiders, tools like Warscythes and Scarabs are still terribly effective, as the sv does not work against ES.

Terminators may hit hard, but they are still expensive models with 2 attacks. They still die to AP1 and mass fire, even if they are now a bit tougher against the latter.

Besides, you must get them to melee first...

I think that will making a change to how vehicles are damaged is good, the way its done is really poor.

A lot of armies doesn't have enough weapons with high enough S to make better then Glancing hits on some vehicles.

The Way HP work should be changed.

Once a vehicle is at 0 HP, he isn't destroyed, in place he still continue to work, but he throws on the damage chart even if he suffers a Glancing hit.

it represent the fact that the hull is completly holed and kaput, but that the vehicle still works, but it becomes more easy to damage its interior and do critical damages.

I like the change to the Chaos( well seeing that it comes from that thread over at Porposed rules).

The change of the termi armor is rather...odd, its like a return to 1St and 2Nd edition rules for the termis...ç!

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I think that will making a change to how vehicles are damaged is good, the way its done is really poor.

A lot of armies doesn't have enough weapons with high enough S to make better then Glancing hits on some vehicles.

The Way HP work should be changed.

Once a vehicle is at 0 HP, he isn't destroyed, in place he still continue to work, but he throws on the damage chart even if he suffers a Glancing hit.

it represent the fact that the hull is completly holed and kaput, but that the vehicle still works, but it becomes more easy to damage its interior and do critical damages.

I like the change to the Chaos( well seeing that it comes from that thread over at Porposed rules).

The change of the termi armor is rather...odd, its like a return to 1St and 2Nd edition rules for the termis...ç!

Which armies are these?

I can't think of any.

Necrons arguably have the least, but they can do so many Gauss 6s, Warscythes, Scarabs, C'tan shards...

What is the practical difference between scoring a glancing hit (which removes a hull point) and simply stripping a hull point?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
What is the practical difference between scoring a glancing hit (which removes a hull point) and simply stripping a hull point?

Since we are removing glancing hits here, we need to specify what Gauss does, otherwise it'd do a glancing hit that is... Well... Nothing.

Maybe I am being a bit overly clear on the whole glancing hits thing.

I'd love to see the blood angel changes.
I'm also predicting a big price hike for riptides.

One suggestion I have is bring back the +1 init from furious charge.

Also, aren't terminators slow and purposeful, NOT relentless?
On the other hand, relentless death company with power fists mixed in!

Not a fan of the relentless thing - the whole point of power fists is to hit last and hit hard.

Otherwise, its honestly like you read my mind. Would love to see a completed document

I had an idea for blood angels to ignore unwieldy only when they charge. That seems a bit less over the top than relentless guys always getting good init hammer/fist strikes.

Maybe halving their initiative, rounding down (Unless I1 already) instead of just dropping it to 1?

It does make sense that Relentless stuff that can just walk around and shoot massive guns without issues can swing big weapons pretty easily too.

Furious Charge, I agree. Must add!

Dude you seriously need to get a job making the rules instead of the monkeys at GW

Would you aslo remove random charge ranges ??

The cover might be a bit off though because a guardsman would be hitting a marine squad in a reinforced building on 6's

It is supposed to be hard to hit people in a bunker. It's the point of a bunker. Blast weapons remain awfully effective- In fact, almost too effective against units in cover. The reduced BS is much less of an issue for them. Hmm. May need looking into.

With the fixes to shooting like the owning player sustaining casualties from overwatch, random charge range will be less of a problem, but I will look into that too. Maybe it can use an adjustment.

Really, the main problem is overwatch + casualty removal from front + random charge range. It is not a good combination and did not seem to be entirely thought through. With a fix to that, the assault move becomes much less problematic.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It is supposed to be hard to hit people in a bunker. It's the point of a bunker. Blast weapons remain awfully effective- In fact, almost too effective against units in cover. The reduced BS is much less of an issue for them. Hmm. May need looking into.

Maybe blast weapons get -1S against 5+ cover and -2S against 4+ cover? That seems like it would work, though frag grenades might end up being completely useless as a thrown weapon.

That does not really help though. That Battle Cannon will wound your Marines on a 2+, no matter if it is reduced to S6 or not.

I like most of what I see here - heck I even see some of my own rule proposals in there (no worries!). My concern is this: most of this looks like reversing or otherwise mitigating 6th edition's changes from 5th edition. Now 5th edition wasn't any holy grail, I think the designers were trying to address real issues, like reducing vehicle spam, or make assaults less common. They just did too much in too many places and ended up swinging the pendulum too far. If you're trying to patch the edition to bring balance, without really reworking the core rules or changing much in the codexes, you have to apply a careful hand, or else the small changes can add up to a very large cumulative effect. We don't want another parking lot edition, we don't want assault armies to be a win-button (not that assault has ever been that good since probably 3rd edition, but we don't want to go back there).

If we aren't starting from the ground up to fix the major structural issues with 40k, we're just patching 6th edition. It would be better to pick maybe half of these changes, do a lot of play-testing, and then apply further tweaks as needed.

For example:

Vehicle armor saves are probably a good idea, and honestly I think you could implement that without even changing point values in most places. Hull points become less of a concern when you're shrugging off medium strength, high rate of fire weapons more often. But adding armor saves AND making glancing hits worthless? The latter is a huge change that greatly affects the damage output of a lot of weapons against vehicles. If you did both of those things, vehicles would be much more durable and lots of weapons would be much less effective, and you'd probably run into brand new balance issues. I wouldn't remove glancing hits at all, or at the very least I'd add in vehicle armor saves first and give it 6 months in the wild before I changed anything else.

Side note, it boggles my mind that in this day and age any game company wouldn't move to a living, cheap-and-easy to obtain ruleset that's frequently tweaked based in part on player feedback. Keeping an eye on your players' ideas and complaints on the internet is like a free open-beta that never stops. Then you really could make minor changes every 6 months, or as needed, and gradually move towards a balanced and air-tight ruleset.

I agree what you say about cumulative changes. We are still playtesting the lot (The few times that we can get together to play, that is...) and it is still just a rough idea.

I and a Necron buddy playtested the new cover system in a 1000 points game.

I had 10 super-expensive Khorne chosen, Kharn, 3 Nurgle plasmabikers, 26 cultists, a squad of 7 havocs with many lascannons, and a rhino to shield my Chosen. (That squad costed like 320 points!)

He had a large blob (Around 25) of Necron Warriors, a Shard, a few Scarabs, 5 Deathmarks, 2 Destroyers and 2 Overlords.

I won, but the cover system worked very well. It made first turn shooting casualties almost too low in combination with night fighting, actually.

Khorne Chosen with Kharn backing them up are -brutal- in melee. The Scarabs just died (Kharn IDed them) and the squad wiped out almost the entire Necron warrior blob on the charge (Including the AC oneshotting a Overlord in a challenge) who were subsequently swept.

I feel that this is a slight cover nerf for lightly armoured units, for my cultists died fast indeed, but it makes squishy Marines somewhat more survivable.

We're going to check the other stuff when we come together to play next time.

But yea... I think I might put back Glancing Hits. Realistically saves should be enough.

You might consider the vehicle armor saves only stopping the removal of a hull point, but not stopping other damage effects. Just a thought.

Quite interesting, BrotherHaraldus.

Here is some feedback.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


General

Cover saves: Reworked. Cover now applies a fixed penalty for ranged To Hit rolls instead of giving a save. When firing at a model in cover, the firing unit receives a penalty to their ballistic skill depending on the cover of the target. However, the target no longer receives cover saves.
6+ cover: No penalty.
5+/4+ cover: -1 BS.
3+/2+ cover: -2 BS.
1+ or better cover: -3 BS.
Note that a To Hit roll of a 6 is always successful.

Good idea. It makes a lot of sense. Remember to playtest the Orks

For Blast weaponary it doesn´t makes much sense though. I propose reducing strength and adding FP instead.
5/4+ : -1 S, +1FP
3+/2+ cover: -2 S, +2 FP
1+ or better cover: -3S, +3FP

So a Prism Cannon shooting at a 2+ cover would be S7 FP4 instead of S9 FP2.

Vehicles: All vehicles now have an armour save. Vehicle armour save is determined as follows:
Basic save: 4+
Tank or Walker: +1
Armour 14: +1
Rear facing: -1
Open-topped: -1
Flyer: -1

Do not like it.

Vehicles were a pain in 5th. The armour save gives an additional layer of complexity and boost them again.

The issue with grenades scattering 1D6, how does that work with BS?

I like your barrage, LoS, and blasts against cover rule.

The reason for the ATSKNF nerf is that one Libby should not be able to make a 50 Guardsman blob as brave as Marines are. He may increase his LD, but there are still limits to their courage, even with a Marine present. As an example.

I can scrap the relentless > unwieldy rule. It was mostly my fiddling.

I agree, we can apply it to all 2+ save models. Or remove it. Still not sure. Terminator armour feels too easy to ignore or just brute force though. Same thing with Meganobs of course, but they have 2W to fall back on.

The Reserves thing must be there, otherwise units like Kommandos or Genestealers are unusable.

As for vehicles, we need to make them tougher somehow to balance them against their organic counterpart, MCs. Armour saves and removal of glancing hits was what I could think of, but do you have an alternative?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The issue with grenades scattering 1D6, how does that work with BS?

It's actually fine (maybe better) if grenades just... don't use BS. Throw range is strength x2, scatters 1D6, doesn't subtract BS. This is one case where no matter how good or bad your ballistic skill is, everyone can probably get the grenade to go roughly where they want, but nobody can stop it from taking a weird bounce.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Reserves thing must be there, otherwise units like Kommandos or Genestealers are unusable.

I'm going to have to disagree here too. Assaulting from Reserves is bad for the game, random charge distance or no. It used to turn 40k into a game where things magically appeared and killed you before you could react, and there was very little you could do to avoid it. That's not very fun and involves exactly zero tactical depth (I have a similar problem with 40k's I-GO-U-GO turn structure allowing gunlines or drop podding marines to point-and-click remove large sections of the enemy army as soon as the game begins, but that's another can of worms). Units like Kommandos and Genestealers are broken because they lost this ability but gained nothing in return to make them work taking. That's the area to look at, and is really a codex issue, not a core rules issue. GW already blew it on the Genestealer front, but maybe Kommandos will see something new.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The issue with grenades scattering 1D6, how does that work with BS?

As usual. In most cases they will not scatter but I think it is ok that a grenade is more precise than the average blast weapon. You throw it with your arm, not too far away from you. Less range -> less scatter.

As I said, seeing a marine throwing a grenade and the grenade scattering 12" (-4) is embarrassing. If they are shooting a missile launcher, at least you can say it misfired. But you throw grenades with your hand. A professional soldier is not expected to miss so badly.

Also, how many times do you see someone throwing a grenade? A lot of players do not even consider it as an option. And it is sort of cool.

I like your barrage, LoS, and blasts against cover rule.

Thanks! Turning cover into BS modifiers is a concept many people have considered. It makes more sense

The reason for the ATSKNF nerf is that one Libby should not be able to make a 50 Guardsman blob as brave as Marines are. He may increase his LD, but there are still limits to their courage, even with a Marine present. As an example.

I think that is ok.

I was talking about nerfing it further. It is a game-breaker and it gives benefits for losing combats, which rubs me the wrong way. I will advocate for ATSKNF giving insta-regroup and immunity to sweeping advances, and that´s all. No extra benefits.

I can scrap the relentless > unwieldy rule. It was mostly my fiddling.

I agree, we can apply it to all 2+ save models. Or remove it. Still not sure. Terminator armour feels too easy to ignore or just brute force though. Same thing with Meganobs of course, but they have 2W to fall back on.

I don´t feel that way. Termis with shields & hammers are a real pain. Even with plasma it takes a lot of effort to get rid of them. Sure, there are many things even more powerful, such MCs or vehicles, but they are still heavy infantry.

I would remove it.

The Reserves thing must be there, otherwise units like Kommandos or Genestealers are unusable.

Agreed. But I was talking about lowering the range of the charge. Coming from reserves and assaulting 12" can be devastating. I have lots of genestealers and they are totally useless, but when I talked with someone and playtested the "assault from reserves" thing they utterly destroyed everything.

As for vehicles, we need to make them tougher somehow to balance them against their organic counterpart, MCs. Armour saves and removal of glancing hits was what I could think of, but do you have an alternative?

That´s the thing: I don´t think we need to make vehicles tougher. Just my opinion. Chimeras & razorback spams, Vendettas (and flyers) and Land Raiders do not need to get even more difficult to kill. A 55 point Chimera/Razorback is ok as it is.

You are looking for a way to empower both vehicles and heavy infantry. Most basic infantry is not that powerful to justify it. MCs are a problem for some armies though, perhaps the solution is nerfing them. I am not sure though, since poisoned weapons or insta-kill weapons are not that rare (like psykers, to name the main cause of death of my MCs).

The only exception: dreadnoughts & walkers in close combat. They are missing. They die too easily against grenades
Suggestion: just like in 5th edition, they can be hit by a grenade only with a 6.

 da001 wrote:
That´s the thing: I don´t think we need to make vehicles tougher. Just my opinion. Chimeras & razorback spams, Vendettas (and flyers) and Land Raiders do not need to get even more difficult to kill. A 55 point Chimera/Razorback is ok as it is.

First of all, chimera and razorback spam are not really something that happens anymore. Walkers are in the exact same boat; the only reason they get more attention than light/medium tanks is because some things that should clearly be walkers have been written up as Monstrous Creatures instead, highlighting the disparity between the two.

Yes, Land Raiders probably don't need to be any tougher. Perhaps 2+ saves on vehicles is a bad idea, and it should cap out at 3+, period.

But the rules proposed above don't really improve skimmers or flyers much, which was the intent. Most weapons will be going through their 4+ or 5+ save, and Jink makes it redundant in a lot of cases anyway. It's a pretty narrowly targeted buff that would help keep slower ground vehicles from being hull-pointed out so easily.

I just took a look at the new Nid codex. Wow, that's bad. We will have a lot of fixes to do when we reach the Tyranid category.

Also, many things like grenade scatter, vehicle saves and so on seems to cause disagreement. I may have to start a poll. Though, that would be one big poll. Must probably use an external poll site if so.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I just took a look at the new Nid codex. Wow, that's bad. We will have a lot of fixes to do when we reach the Tyranid category.

Also, many things like grenade scatter, vehicle saves and so on seems to cause disagreement. I may have to start a poll. Though, that would be one big poll. Must probably use an external poll site if so.

What about opening different polls here? I think you will get more feedback staying here on Dakka.

Concerning the disagreement about grenades scatter, only two people expressed an opinion.
Me: Throw range is strength x2, scatters 1D6, subtract BS.
CalgarsPimp: Throw range is strength x2, scatters 1D6, doesn't subtract BS.

After a little thinking, I believe CalgarsPimp is right. His reasoning sounds neat.
New me: Throw range is strength x2, scatters 1D6, doesn't subtract BS.

CalgarsPimp: I still think a 3+ save in addition to their current rules is too much. 55 points Chimeras or Razorbacks are no longer a must-take, but they are options now, which is better. They still can be used to provide mobility, mobile cover and in some cases fire power. Also keep in mind BrotherHaraldus´ new rule about charging after disembarking: this is a big buff for transports.

Could someone post what exactly is this rule attempting to fix? All I can think is outmaneuvering a light vehicle to get some Bolter or similar to their rear and glance them to death. Or using a Heavy Bolter against a light vehicle with a slight chance of doing something. Or take down that flyer with a lucky shot.

Walkers are the only vehicles I see in need of help.

Edit: autocorrect changed "bolter" for "batteries". Thank you autocorrect!

I can agree to a degree actually. Walkers need the buff rather than vehicles in general.

They just die way too fast. Kraks are a problem, but that is assuming they do reach melee at all.

Do you have any ideas to fix that while leaving the vehicles that don't need it alone?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I can agree to a degree actually. Walkers need the buff rather than vehicles in general.

They just die way too fast. Kraks are a problem, but that is assuming they do reach melee at all.

Do you have any ideas to fix that while leaving the vehicles that don't need it alone?

Yep. I posted it before: "Suggestion: just like in 5th edition, they can be hit by a grenade only with a 6."

That was what close combat dreads were used for: get into combat and not get easily killed. Grenades didn´t change. It was the loss of the rules from page 73 5th edition rulebook, "Walkers and Assaults", that turned them useless. Quote: "Walkers can make an assault even if they fired heavy or rapid fire weapons (...) Grenades and Melta Bombs can be used against a Walker. A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on the roll of 6. However, if the Walker is Stunned or Immovilised at the start of the Assault Phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of WS."

The "get into combat" would be the difficult part, but this applies to all close combat specialists.


By the way, I was thinking about the "assaulting from reserves" problem. All agree there is a problem, but allowing to charge from reserve breaks the game too.

What about this? In the game turn they come from reserves, units can be shot only with Snapshots. All of a sudden Mandrakes, Commandos and Genestealers have a chance to do something, yet the enemy have a chance to react and prepare a strategy.

...I sorta like that, actually.

How do you suggest we balance out shooting/assault overall? Right now shooting is generally better, so we want to buff assault or nerf shooting without just making assault the new top dog.

Maybe removing random charge range?

Dear god if 7th is coming I hope this is changed

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
...I sorta like that, actually.

How do you suggest we balance out shooting/assault overall? Right now shooting is generally better, so we want to buff assault or nerf shooting without just making assault the new top dog.

Maybe removing random charge range?

Either 6+D6" or 4D3 or something like that. Or simply 6" again.