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 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.

Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.

I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.

In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.

Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.

Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.

I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.

In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.

Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.

Again, it's not even so much that I think the book is an unwinable turd (I think it does suck) the real problem is that more things were taken than were added in, and the majority of things that were good before have been nerfed. The book still might be good, but it really seems to just be 5E codex with nerfs, and that's unfortunate.

Yeah, pretty obvious that there's nothing like chapter tactics where we're all pleased with the creative effort and flexibility of the new dex. Feels like CSM with it's missing legions... I think those rumors on Hive fleet builds were so clever and made so much sense that their absence just hurts.

Not sure if a solid supplement will be a bandaid or salt in the wound to the Hivemind.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on.

That was actualy a good post. What you miss imo is that without biomancy nids would be abysmal this edition but they took it and gave nothing back. Nids have no allies, no pods, no brb powers and only a few really fluffy rules (synapse, lictors, mawlocks, tervigon). They should be efficient and deadly, not because powergaming but it would fit the fluff and mood of the army, then they remove rerolls with STs and your Trygon from swift killer turns into a sloppy troll feel - wise. That Tervigon build you mention, it should have been nerfed a bit (only maybe though, and biomancy out would suffice for sure) but it was also extremly fluffy and shouldn't be nerfed that hard. Noone talks about how they want OP but just how more units should be viable and how the book should offer more vs the old one instead of being a step back. You also mention too much hype, didn't they at GW claim that they are going to fix the 5th edition book? It's hardly fixed, what would you expect if not massive dissapointment.

The book is playable ofc but vs what it should have been (and I'm not talking abou some unrealistic expectations or dreams of top tier) it is pretty bad.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.

Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.

I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.

In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.

Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.

Again, it's not even so much that I think the book is an unwinable turd (I think it does suck) the real problem is that more things were taken than were added in, and the majority of things that were good before have been nerfed. The book still might be good, but it really seems to just be 5E codex with nerfs, and that's unfortunate.

You may end up being right... but the fact is - you do really have to give it some reps in the current game/meta with 6th edition wholly in mind - abandon whatever you thought was good in 5th, the game has changed tremendously.

It might suck, but I know this - the last (5E codex) did NOT suck - it just wasn't an easy-win / win-button book. The few good players I saw and faced wielding that book were ridiculously hard to challenge.

The TauDar idea is not a good measure of anything - if you need TauDar to win - you are NOT "competitive", you are the opposite. If you have won the game at the 'list-building' phase, that does NOT make you a good or 'competitive' player. That said, if your army is so bad that nothing you do could result in a victory then that is clearly a problem - but that has NEVER been the case with any Tyranid codex.

 Eddtheman wrote:
I feel that the reason that most Nid players are complaining, even though many have not had the opportunity to play the new book, is that a single read through will show anyone with an understanding of the previous codex that the fundamental issues that plagued the previous codex and weakened the army overall were not addressed. Yes many options dropped in cost, but I feel that those units ended up being costed what they should have been in the last codex, in addition to receiving a drop in effectiveness. In addition, alot of the options that myself and many tyranid players felt would give us options were not added. In an edition that is all about adding more choices and options to one's army, tyranid players are on the outside looking in and were not given anything to make up for the exclusion of BRB psychic powers, fortifications or allies.

Beautifully said.

 Lobukia wrote:
Yeah, pretty obvious that there's nothing like chapter tactics where we're all pleased with the creative effort and flexibility of the new dex.

Yes one appreciates those even if not every each one is competitive or OP. Most just work, you get options and are happy with that unlike new nid codex where it's going to be "well Mawlock or Fexes, or just fun".

I just finished to read the book and I can said is a good book. Ok, some people doesnt like the fact that the Doom, the Parasite, spore mine are not there anymore. For the psychic power, they are not bad and we must wait until the faq come out to know if we can use the old psychic power.

Can someone can explain to me why the pyrovore is stile bad as before.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.

Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.

I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.

In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.

Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.

I don't understand your reasonning. What does it have to do with funding ?
They actually invested some money to build the crone / harpy kit, only to put completly useless stats on it. It has nothing to do with funding...
I will play tyranid, even with a "bad" codex, and I see some possible list altho it will never be tournament level (who cares ?) but please, don't make it seems like there is no blatant design flaw with some of the units, especially if you compare them to their tau/eldar/SM counterpart.

 Gunzhard wrote:


It might suck, but I know this - the last (5E codex) did NOT suck - it just wasn't an easy-win / win-button book. The few good players I saw and faced wielding that book were ridiculously hard to challenge.

I 100% agree with this statement, which is why I'm sad to see the exact same book with units removed and major nerfs.

I would like to add to my previous comment the positive things I have to say about this new codex.

Although I am upset about the lack of internal balance, options, and the fact that the issues that were found in the previous codex were not addressed, there are some things to get excited about. I am very disappointed, but it's not all doom and gloom.

1. Huge points drops across the codex. Swarms are cheaper, and other models, such as the Carnifex and particularly the Tyrannofex, are now considerably better costed.

2. The Exocrine seems to me to be a possible new Gem. It is viable against transports, 2+ save monstrous creatures (Riptides), and elite infantry, as well as swarms of troops. I'm gradually getting rather excited about the thing.

3. Mawlocs have improved and are nicely costed.

4. Venomthropes, which I feel were better than they were generally given credit for last codex, are better than they were before.

5. Lictors, whilst not entirely fixed, seem a lot more viable.

6. Despite losing out on the Rule book psychic powers, I quite like the Tyranid codex powers.

7. The Crone, whilst not what I'd hoped it would be, seems decent, if fragile.

8. I haven't hear many people talk about this, so maybe I'm missing something, but Boneswords seem to have improved.

9. I think Hormagants being cheaper and faster may make up for the loss in accuracy. I'm not willing to bet on this just yet, but Im happy about this trade.

10. The option for blinding attacks on Gargoyles is certainly interesting. I'm not sure how viable it will be, but you never know.

There. Not a good or well written codex in my opinion, but I'll still play it and have fun with it. Hive Fleet Johnny wont be taken out so easily

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


It might suck, but I know this - the last (5E codex) did NOT suck - it just wasn't an easy-win / win-button book. The few good players I saw and faced wielding that book were ridiculously hard to challenge.

I 100% agree with this statement, which is why I'm sad to see the exact same book with units removed and major nerfs.

I agree as well, though a few units suffered from being extremly overcosted. They are in line now which people mistake with being super good or sth just because 30 points less.

edit: Engrish. Still Engrish I guess though heh

Do Warriors suck as badly as people are saying? Would running a Warrior centric list be very weak? It's more an aesthetic thing that I've had in mind since the last codex but I couldn't be bothered coverting or using finecast for lashwhips and boneswords.

I really don't understand how lashwhips raise initiative. That doesn't seem to make any sense. Is it +1 Int or what?

I played a game versus new nids last night. It was:

1500 each team game; 2 nids vs GK & Necrons

Nids (2 force orgs):
3x Dakka Flyrants
3x Tervigons
90 Guants
2 Venoms
2 Exocrins
2 Biovores
1 Harpy
3 Zoeys
1 Dakkafex

GK
Draigo
Coteaz

5 Paladins (2x Psycannons)
1 Paladin (MCDH)
4x Acolytes (Bolters)

3x Dreadknights (PT/Hvy Inc)

Necrons:

Destroyer Lord (all the goodies)
Overlord (all the goodies)

10 Immortals (Tesla in Night Scythe)
9 Warriors (Ghost Ark)

Triach Stalker

6 Wraiths (whip coils)

Anni Barge


Wraiths did a lot of damage, but then died to 60+ guant shots and Exocrines. Dreadknights got locked up alot because of little guys, but ended up contesting the relic and burning them off it several times. Made 3 big bugs explode with force weapons (even at reduced leadership). Dreadknights are still beasts versus Nids. Had I used some riflemen instead... the horror. The Horror.

Speaking of the horror, after many shots it managed to pin a Necron Overlord once. Once.

Flyrants are a must and getting the Lance power is a must. It's going to be the best way to deliver that.

Venomthropes hidden out of LoS or in cover suck to shoot at. Then again, our armies (GK/N) were entirely 24" or less. Either didn't care about cover or the things we shot at never benefited (flyrants).

I denied the witch several times versus the Zoeys. That's pretty painful when one roll stops them all.

It could have gone a lot better for me (Draigowing) had Draigo not ate gak the second turn from some really bad armor saves and failing a 5~6" charge at a fallen Flyrant warlord. The GK/N had some PISS POOR dice rolls. The Nids essentially pointed at a unit and it died except for the Immortals, Coteaz and the Dreadknights.

Game came to a tie on turn 5 because we had to call it. Linebreaker + First Blood versus Linebreaker (yea shunts) + Slay the Warlord.

What do I think against the Nids?

Had I had full Paladinstar, they'd be in a world of hurt. We took a hard beating, but it was kind of pathetic considering the Nids were bringing their best (maybe not the Harpy, but w/e) and a bad match up (full psyker army) and an non-optimized Necrons list had a chance at winning, even with the worst dice in the world. (Still mad Draigo lost three wounds from the first flyrant).

If I was playing my Sisters, I could outrange them greatly and use a butt-ton of flamers to incinerate the little guys. And my soon to be Eldar (not even a cheese list)? Nope.

I'd like to try again, certainly, but I felt at loss because of the pairings not the armies. I think Exocrines are a must take.

Venomthropes were amazing in 5E but nobody used them because they were afraid to 'waste' an elite slot. That forced 'dangerous terrain' check radius alone was so deadly - of course in 6E you can now get an armour save for failed dangerous-terrain so the effect is far less threatening. Still I was always surprised that so many people ignored that unit...

 Gunzhard wrote:
Venomthropes were amazing in 5E but nobody used them because they were afraid to 'waste' an elite slot. That forced 'dangerous terrain' check radius alone was so deadly - of course in 6E you can now get an armour save for failed dangerous-terrain so the effect is far less threatening. Still I was always surprised that so many people ignored that unit...

Probably because with one good shot they popped right open along with the fact that natural cover was better then the venoms.

Along with being in the elite slot when you desperately needed to open vehicles with the hive guard.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Do Warriors suck as badly as people are saying? Would running a Warrior centric list be very weak? It's more an aesthetic thing that I've had in mind since the last codex but I couldn't be bothered coverting or using finecast for lashwhips and boneswords.

I really don't understand how lashwhips raise initiative. That doesn't seem to make any sense. Is it +1 Int or what?

Warriors are the same points cost and stats as the previous book, although their options have changed a bit in points. I honestly dont really see warrior armies doing that well, unfortunately. They still have the same weaknesses and limitations as last codex: they are too expensive for a T4 model. When each one costs a rhino with even basic upgrades, facing an army with lots of S8, (especially blasts) or tons of S6 multishot (hi eldar) will give you a very hard time. They dont seem to be very killy at range (3 S4 shots at 18" aint much to write home about) and making them good in CC bumps their cost to more than a terminator.

Lash whips add 3 to your initiative, rather than reduce your opponents to 1 (so if your I is 5, you pile in and strike at I8). Im not sure if the ability allows you to strike at I 4 when charging into cover though. From a fluff perspective it doesn't make much sense, but I do feel that the new rules are a definite nerf to the wielder and synergy of the army.

Medium of Death wrote:Do Warriors suck as badly as people are saying? Would running a Warrior centric list be very weak? It's more an aesthetic thing that I've had in mind since the last codex but I couldn't be bothered coverting or using finecast for lashwhips and boneswords.

Warriors are just way over costed for what they do. You need to spend Terminator-level points on them to make them anywhere near good in assault, and their shooting power is very 'meh'. They also don't have the survivability to last very long against any kind of sustained firepower.

Having said that, they will start to see play more often because most other Troops options have huge drawbacks, and cheap Synapse is desperately needed.

Eddtheman wrote:Lash whips add 3 to your initiative, rather than reduce your opponents to 1 (so if your I is 5, you pile in and strike at I8). Im not sure if the ability allows you to strike at I 4 when charging into cover though.

They don't, you need Flesh Hooks for that.

JohnnyElfSlayer wrote:
6. Despite losing out on the Rule book psychic powers, I quite like the Tyranid codex powers.

The Nid powers are pretty good on the whole. The main issue is that they're mostly very situational. With the changes to Zoanthropes and Tervigons, extra rolls for psychic powers are much harder to get now, just when we need them to most.

It's very easy to end up with several useless abilities spread across your army, such as The Horror when fighting Marines/Daemons, or Psychic Scream on a slow Tervigon. Other armies get to choose to roll on BRB tables to avoid this, but for some reason we don't.

JohnnyElfSlayer wrote:
8. I haven't hear many people talk about this, so maybe I'm missing something, but Boneswords seem to have improved.

Boneswords were nerfed. They used to ignore all armour, effective making them AP2. Now they're AP3, with no other huge benefit, and they're still costed more than a power fist. There's also no benefit for using 2 swords over 1 sword and a whip other than points.

Also, people keep mentioning Mawloc being "buffed" due to a points reduction and doing a second blast after the first for survivors, however:
1. He used to punish parking-lots and scatter them. Now, if he doesn't make room for himself, he just straight-up mishaps.
2. Mawloc also can't burrow until the 2nd turn if you start with him on-board, and you have to roll for him from reserves, he doesn't auto-return.
3. He also hits vehicles on side instead of rear armor like he used to making him much worse again.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on.

That was actualy a good post. What you miss imo is that without biomancy nids would be abysmal this edition but they took it and gave nothing back. Nids have no allies, no pods, no brb powers and only a few really fluffy rules (synapse, lictors, mawlocks, tervigon). They should be efficient and deadly, not because powergaming but it would fit the fluff and mood of the army, then they remove rerolls with STs and your Trygon from swift killer turns into a sloppy troll feel - wise. That Tervigon build you mention, it should have been nerfed a bit (only maybe though, and biomancy out would suffice for sure) but it was also extremly fluffy and shouldn't be nerfed that hard. Noone talks about how they want OP but just how more units should be viable and how the book should offer more vs the old one instead of being a step back. You also mention too much hype, didn't they at GW claim that they are going to fix the 5th edition book? It's hardly fixed, what would you expect if not massive dissapointment.

The book is playable ofc but vs what it should have been (and I'm not talking abou some unrealistic expectations or dreams of top tier) it is pretty bad.

I appreciate the compliment.

Biomancy has been a crutch for the codex for a long time and isn't what is, or should have been propping it up. Assault rules are what has mostly been the make-or-break factor for the army. Tyranids have always been a "get close and eat their faces" army and the 6th edition assault rules really kneecapped that. Now some of the changes made sense (random charge ranges are needed to offset pre-measuring to ensure people can't just park themselves outside of charge range for instance), but things like the Tau's ability to break the rules of overwatch really hurt the army.

Allies is a weird system and while most of it makes sense there are issues and honestly I can't see a way to give Tyranids allies. Genestealer cult dataslates perhaps, but not full allies with the other codexes. I see a lot of clamoring about the pods but I don't recall a lot of lists that used pods. If this book is basically a copy and paste (plus nerf bat) wouldn't that make pods still fairly useless since you can't assault out of them?

All armies should be deadly and efficient. They aren't though and that's one of the reasons I don't really use competitiveness as a measuring stick to say that a book is good or bad because competitive 40k is basically broken. There are just too many things stacked against the Nids to expect them to just come in and be competitive like people want right now. The assault rules, Tau and Eldar books all kick the army in the shins pretty hard and even if this book was better I don't think it'd really fix those issues.

The Tervigon needed a nerf of some kind, but they did get too zealous with it. The 30 gaunt requirement was a pretty good way to mitigate most of it because you'd need a lot of models to run that build, something you didn't really need before.

For the record, I don't recall GW claiming (at least publicly) that they were going to "fix" anything, and attribute that to "hype". Fans can't help but hype things. It's what fans do, they get excited and build something up and that almost always ends poorly when GW is involved because the final product is almost never what they wanted or expected. I don't blame people for being fans though, just noting that sometimes expectations get ahead of what the end result is and disappointment occurs.


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WhiteDog wrote:
I don't understand your reasonning. What does it have to do with funding ?
They actually invested some money to build the crone / harpy kit, only to put completly useless stats on it. It has nothing to do with funding...
I will play tyranid, even with a "bad" codex, and I see some possible list altho it will never be tournament level (who cares ?) but please, don't make it seems like there is no blatant design flaw with some of the units, especially if you compare them to their tau/eldar/SM counterpart.

Releases have budgets. And since GW has stepped up the release schedule, they have smaller budgets than before. This means less kits overall. They converted some Finecast ones to plastic, plugged the hole for the Harpy and added in something new (because if we didn't get anything new people would likely flip their gak even more that they already are about "copy and paste" design). Stats have nothing to do with that.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

2. Mawloc also can't burrow until the 2nd turn if you start with him on-board, and you have to roll for him from reserves, he doesn't auto-return.
3. He also hits vehicles on side instead of rear armor like he used to making him much worse again.

It does auto-return, after burrowing the Mawloc enters Ongoing Reserves. That's why Burrow can't be used on turn 1, as it would allow you to skip the roll for reserves.

They also added Ignores Cover to the attack, which is arguable more useful than hitting rear armour.

Thanks for the replies guys re the Warriors.

I think I might still pick up a box of Warriors, Tyrant Guard and the Codex even just to build them/try out a kitbash I have in mind.

Something struck me while reading the codex for the 5th time.

Most of the units in the codex have access to adrenal glands and toxin sacs. Most of the important ones anyway.

Toxin sacs is not that great except on Hormagaunts but for the rest adrenal glands give furious charge and fleet.

So almost all the models in our armies can potentially have fleet.

Fleet on a Carnifex is really nice and on Tyranid Warriors geared toward CC. It look quite nice too.

All our MC's can have furious charge and fleet now. With regeneration on 4+ the nidzilla type list got a nice boost.

Watched two games yesterday, Nids versus Grey Knights and then Necrons. Took the flying anti-air bug, 3 of the exocrines, tyrant, deathleaper, and lots of hiveguard.

Not sure if the Grey Knight player hadn't looked at any of the rules for the new stuff, but he got absolutely wrecked. Exocrines were the mvp, they blew up the board. Hive guard and their ignore-everything guns took out what was huddling in cover. Big flying bug blew up a stormraven pretty fast. And deathleaper + SitW made all the psykers pretty sad pandas.

Second game against Necrons was a lot closer, but Tyranids won again. Less curbstomping since the Necrons took a lot of fliers and there was just the one harpy thing, but it took out two croissants over the course of the game. No psykers so SitW didn't do anything and Deathleaper got beat up by a bunch of wraiths+destroyer lord. Still, Necron shooting had to get close to do anything for the most part and that was the sweet spot for the Tyranids as well. They just out-shot them off the board.

Overall I wanna call Tyranids a mid-shooting army now in the same vein as Grey Knights and Necrons, but potentially better at it. I can see them suffering pretty bad against more long range armies like Eldar/Tau/IG, but doing fine against everyone else.

On the warrior front boneswords cost the same as a power weapon, and with a lash it's 20. Sure there expensive but run them behind gaunts with a venomthrope behind and 3+ cover is yours.
There are ways around this but if there shooting at warriors/venomthropes with ignor cover weapons there not shooting at the fex's or other MC's threat overload I feel is key.
First look oh copy n paste given time I'm finding tactics and synargy it's not top tier and mistakes will make you pay but very usable (think less Shooty de).

Sure there expensive but run them behind gaunts with a venomthrope behind and 3+ cover is yours.

Cover stoped being a viable protection option a long time ago . It was already weaker when helldrakes came out and after taudar , tau formation and D weapons cover is hardly a way to protect important models.

Skullhammer wrote:
On the warrior front boneswords cost the same as a power weapon, and with a lash it's 20.

And Warriors are what, 30 points base? So 50 points a model for something that's T4 with a 4+ save.

That sounds worth it.

I think Grey Knights are the preferred enemy for Exocrines (well, all MEQ really), because Grey Knights basically sit at 24''. They can't drop an Exocrine before it gets into range as easily as the xenos armies.

Jesus, if only we still had pods. Exocrine in a pod for some surprise assault6, S7AP2 butsecs would be fantastic.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think Grey Knights are the preferred enemy for Exocrines (well, all MEQ really), because Grey Knights basically at 24''. They can't drop an Exocrine before it gets into range as easily as the xenos armies.

Jesus, if only we still had pods. Exocrine in a pod for some surprise assault6, S7AP2 butsecs would be fantastic.

It's still weird not hearing GK running S8 Autocannon dreads, but I guess they've become quite useless in this edition.

Exocrines foot slogging are going to be massacred by any list that means business at range. Ie, the good lists.