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I would still fight Chaos even if he decided to pull out 4 Heldrakes in a 1999+1 pts or less game. Although that is power-gaming. I was just saying that I wont be doing that due to my meta.
Most likely we will put restriction on something in the Nids codex too if we find that there is a unit that is OP on the level of a heldrake and I will be fine with that.

I hope we can all agree that a heldrake is OP tho right?

 fartherthanfar wrote:
I would still fight Chaos even if he decided to pull out 4 Heldrakes in a 1999+1 pts or less game. Although that is power-gaming. I was just saying that I wont be doing that due to my meta.
Most likely we will put restriction on something in the Nids codex too if we find that there is a unit that is OP on the level of a heldrake and I will be fine with that.

I hope we can all agree that a heldrake is OP tho right?

Not really, it's just strong at this point.

The heldrake is an odd one. It's not really op nor is it bad. Simply put, it has this odd effect. Against the top tier armies, it is absolutely worthless struggling to handle them and is absolutely ineffective against fliers and is in a codex that can't really use it to its best potential as the rest of the book has very little to any AA (or decent AA either) and is generally under performing. It's really only in casual games where the heldrake is op anymore and that's namely because enemies are going to be deploying sub par units (and due to percentile chances will be power armour marines) and in an era where several codices are still too outdated to function against it. That's really the biggest problem. It was nasty when it came out but it has long fallen from op to merely a polarizing weapon that is really only strong in competitive environments. It's still pretty much a must take though. Also 4 is generally regarded as too much. 3 is already pushing it.

New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...

I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.

Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.

So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.

But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.

This is brilliant.

Your "bitching" (any form of complaint or criticism, in your view) about bitching. Especially with your comparison to /tg/ and your constant use of ad-hom. Your a very silly person Squig.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...

I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.

Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.

So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.

I agree with most of this. To be fair though you are almost always going to take at least 1 x Zoanthrope right? It's worth it just for the extra psyker power's let alone synapse. However you are likely to play it VERY safe with the guy and hide him most of the battle which is somewhat restrictive.. I do also think that I am looking at thing's like warriors, prime's and Tervigon's mostly for the synapse and that either choice is un likely to contribute much to the battle for there points.

The above makes me really consider a tax of Norn crown + Dominion to be a cheaper alternative than actually taking a Prime or Warrior's or Tervigon.

 Imposter101 wrote:
your constant use of ad-hom.

You can't accuse someone of Ad Homenim and then follow it up with

Your a very silly person Squig.

On account of that being, well, Ad Homenim.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
your constant use of ad-hom.

You can't accuse someone of Ad Homenim and then follow it up with

Your a very silly person Squig.

On account of that being, well, Ad Homenim.

No that's just an insult.

An Ad Hominem is attacking someone's credibility as an argument.

So saying "You're wrong because X, also you're an idiot" is perfectly logically sound. Saying "You're wrong because you're an idiot" is fallacious.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...

I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.

Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.

So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.

And it makes it if you want to try to run a swarm, you need lots of synapse creatures, because you pretty much need them to overlap. Which greatly reduces the number of little guys you can take. Which pretty much defeats the idea of swarm. If you don't take quite a bit of synapse; and have a lot of guys, which you will need to spread out to avoid large blasts, then your opponent kills just one synapse unit and you could very well have lost control of quite a few units, or even have had them suffer catastrophic losses in the case of units like hormagaunts.

One thing about this codex that I find very strange is that Tervigons are now an ok synapse unit, but not for termigants. Good for controlling everything else, but with the change in the synaptic backlash and the loss of the ability to grant termigants poison and adrendal gland effect it better to keep the termigants away from their broodmother.

Just wanted to point out: the old Tyranid FAQ has been removed from the US site. Hopefully that means FAQ 1.0 is coming soon?

 streamdragon wrote:
Just wanted to point out: the old Tyranid FAQ has been removed from the US site. Hopefully that means FAQ 1.0 is coming soon?

Hopefully, maybe. I'm a little apprehensive about it really. Though if its much like other new releases, they'll be 1 or 2 lines to fix things and thats it.
Taking it down is a step forward though. I keep checking and need to double check the 2013 part every time .

 streamdragon wrote:
Just wanted to point out: the old Tyranid FAQ has been removed from the US site. Hopefully that means FAQ 1.0 is coming soon?

Maybe it'll say we can take Biomancy again?

 Squigsquasher wrote:
You can't accuse someone of Ad Homenim and then follow it up with

Your a very silly person Squig.

On account of that being, well, Ad Homenim.

That wasn't an Ad Hominem.

An ad hominem would be "You're wrong -because- you're a very silly person Squig". What he said was "You're wrong -and- you're a very silly person". There's a pretty significant difference.

Just FYI.

The new FAQ when it goes up is more likely to say we cant use fortifications than to say we can use biomancy the way things have been in the past and going by what they did and didnt do with the codex...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
... and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game...

Well... yeah. I don't like to toot my own horn like this, but as someone with around ten published 40K RPG rulebooks to his name I'd say that myself and a few others I've worked with on those books could do a bang up job with 40K.

Once more I agree with H.B.M.C.

Am I getting grumpy or something?

I gotta say, I'm loving the dex so far!

Just my 1750 list is exactly 200 points cheaper!! The endless swarm is back!

My list is basically: tyrant 2tl-devourers, prime, venomthrope, 3zoans, Broodlord + 15 stealers, 20 terma, 20 hormo, 20 hormo, 3 warriors, 3 warriors, 2 dakkafex, tyrannofex with huge rupture? Cannon...

With 200 free points I could get another dakkafex + lictor, or hive Crone + venomthrope, or 50 gaunts!!

Yeah synapse is a bit more strict and common sense but I just can't understand all the hate.

Well, after a couple of weeks mulling this book over I am super not impressed. As a long time tyranid player (15+ years now) and fairly competitive player overall (I think I was 7-0 with nids in 6th edition, with 6 of those games being in small local tournaments) I think I'm done with nids until something changes with the core rules, the dataslates or the FaQ.

One thing I can say is that the internal balance is about as good as it's ever been....but the external balance is pretty much the worst it's been in a long time.

The entire book is either straight up blatant nerfs, or subtle sneaky nerfs. The new units are a bloody mess, so they don't help. My favorite quote about this book so far is; "This codex is the most disappointing 40k codex release since the last Tyranid codex".

I've toyed with writing an in depth review of every unit and option, but I realized it would be quite literally a 5000+ word essay of depressing sadness, and I don't want to waste anymore time on this book than I need to. If anyone wants my opinions on anything in particular, I'll post them, but I'm not going to spend hours on writing this.

Yeah synapse is a bit more strict and common sense but I just can't understand all the hate.

How offten do you play against good lists ?

Makumba wrote:

Yeah synapse is a bit more strict and common sense but I just can't understand all the hate.

How offten do you play against good lists ?

By 'good' lists do you mean douchy WAAC lists, like Taudar riptide spam? Admittedly, not that often...

Well I think the Tyranids have the best anti air in the game now 2/3 rds of the time. I don't see why you wouldn't run 2 Tryants. So w/ 2 powers each you'll get warp blast 2/3 of your games. A Tryant w/ a 10/1 will wreck flyers. That is not even considering you'll still fire six 6 str attacks w/ that.

 Gunzhard wrote:
By 'good' lists do you mean douchy WAAC lists

OK, so how often do you play against people that understand game play and design an army around it?

 kirsanth wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
By 'good' lists do you mean douchy WAAC lists

OK, so how often do you play against people that understand game play and design an army around it?

My group are all veteran gamers, but if you're seriously telling me the new synapse has you that stumped I question if you fall into that category.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Yeah synapse is a bit more strict and common sense but I just can't understand all the hate.

How offten do you play against good lists ?

By 'good' lists do you mean douchy WAAC lists, like Taudar riptide spam? Admittedly, not that often...

This just said it all, firstly about the poster, secondly about the competition.

I can sum up my opinion of this book in one sentence. The best part of the new Nid book is the Matt Ward fluff.

Oh, and no spore pods is a huge kick in the junk. Was it really that hard to make a big plastic seed thing? Is the 30 devilguant suicide drop really that game breaking? Nothing like an assault army with no access to grenades and no deep strike.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps- Has it been confirmed that Crudface wrote this thing?

 Phazael wrote:
I can sum up my opinion of this book in one sentence. The best part of the new Nid book is the Matt Ward fluff.

Ooooh ouch.

 Mythra wrote:
Well I think the Tyranids have the best anti air in the game now 2/3 rds of the time. I don't see why you wouldn't run 2 Tryants. So w/ 2 powers each you'll get warp blast 2/3 of your games. A Tryant w/ a 10/1 will wreck flyers. That is not even considering you'll still fire six 6 str attacks w/ that.

I was thinking about this yesterday evening actually.

First off, Warp Blast is AP2....it got nerfed from 5th edition

Second, getting the power isn't reliable enough, or advantageous enough, that you'd give up the second TL-BL devourer for it....so you aren't saving the 15 points from not buying the gun.

So the question is; Does a psychic S10 AP2 lance beat out 6 S6 AP- twin-linked shots?

Warp Lance;
91.66% chance to pass the psychic test
61.11% chance to hit
50.93% chance to hit after deny the witch
------
Against AV10; Auto-pen, 1/3 chance to kill. Overall, 33.95% chance to take a hull point/do damage, 16.97% chance to kill straight out. 0.34 HP, 0.17 Kill
Against AV11; Glances on a 1, Pen on a 2+. 8.488% chance to glance, 28.29% chance to take a hull point/do damage, 14.14% chance to kill straight out. 0.36HP, 0.14 kill
Against AV12; Glances on a 2, Pen on a 3+. 8.488% chance to glance, 22.63% chance to take a hull point/do damage, 11.31% chance to kill straight out. 0.31HP, 0.11 kill

Basically a solid chance to do a damage roll, but less than 1 in 6 chance of killing straight up.

TL-BL Devourers;
88.8% chance to hit
-------
Against AV10: 4 to glance, 5+ to pen; 14.8% chance to glance, 29.62% chance to pen (4.93 to kill straight up) x 6 = 2.37HP, 0.30 Kills
Against AV11; 5 to glance, 6 to pen; 14.8% chance to glance, 14.8% chance to pen (2.47 to kill straight up) x 6 = 1.63 HP, 0.148 kills
Against AV12; 6 to glance; 14.8% chance to take a hull point x6 = 0.88HP

TL-BL dev are just straight up better against AV10/11, period
Against AV12, Devs cannot kill it straight out, but is averaging more hull points worth of damage still. Combined with the second BL-devourer, I'd score twin-BL devourers over Warp lance + BL dev higher, since you can just glance something to death faster.

Overall....I don't think Warp lance it worth firing at anything but an AV13+ ground vehicle (or that ONE AV13 flyer of course). Frankly, I write warp blast off as a mediocre power for Winged tyrants, right up there with The Horror and Dominion.

bodazoka wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...

I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.

Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.

So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.

I agree with most of this. To be fair though you are almost always going to take at least 1 x Zoanthrope right? It's worth it just for the extra psyker power's let alone synapse. However you are likely to play it VERY safe with the guy and hide him most of the battle which is somewhat restrictive.. I do also think that I am looking at thing's like warriors, prime's and Tervigon's mostly for the synapse and that either choice is un likely to contribute much to the battle for there points.

The above makes me really consider a tax of Norn crown + Dominion to be a cheaper alternative than actually taking a Prime or Warrior's or Tervigon.

Honestly? No, I never plan on running Zoanthropes because I don't have enough elite slots. This is where I am really feeling the crunch because I am going to auto include two groups of one Venomthropes to give my army the coverage it needs and fill the other slot with the, admittedly bad but awesome looking, Haruspex. Or maybe some Hive Guard if I ever feel like playing them again.

I don't think that the problem is synapse range, I think the problem is how hard it is to keep your synapse alive when playing against a semi decent opponent.

Ok, so what about this scenario?

New BRB rules are in playtest so they wrote the 'nid dex to work in light of that.

No pods because they break a rule of two races having the same tactic, SM and 'nids, so that would be considered a fix IMHO.

New white dwarf weekly coming that will add new kits and rules. Remember the Talons and DakkaDakka Jets with the rules only being in the WD?

New combined website with FW now folded in. FW making new "fixes" to all the missing fortifications and adding some new units that we all see are missing.

The reason I say this is that GW has begun to step up their releases. They seem to actually have a long term plan in mind to getting codex releases out faster than ever before, thus allowing them to plan the contents of the codex to better align with the releases down the road. We see no Finecast in this release and I think we are seeing the end to finecast altogether. We are seeing the data slate as a way to add more rules and options in a faster format. I personally would like to have my codex buffed up now, in a dataslate, then wait for the new codex to come out.

Yes, the 'nid codex is not stellar, but we do get to use more models, get actually kits to build, and the play style of 'nids is much better than ever. Remember, we never got a Drop Pod model, I wonder if we will. If we do, then I will be the first to wonder how that fits with the lore. Also, where is all that cool terrain\fortifications that I saw in the last codex. Will we ever see it? I am hoping we do.

Now chew on this, is 40k in need of better CinC rules. Is that what we are seeing in the synapse rules. Will we see something in the Orks and IG that balance this out? I would not be surprised in the least. Also, on the dataslate it talks to the arrival of the hive to a planet, could the new data slates be giving us some Deep Strike options. Far fetched, but it all rings true of so much of what I see GW doing.

As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.

Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.

The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!

 Gunzhard wrote:
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.

Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.

The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!

Those 20 hormagaunts do not matter against the Tau and Eldar players because they can easily snipe the supporting synapse creature making those 20 hormagaunts likely to kill themselves. IB is so bad now that it really does cripple the army to not have it and people will realize that. There is no longer an effective way to spam synapse either which makes it even harder, there is no cheap synapse, it is all tied up in important slots or to expensive to be viable.