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2014/01/16 07:22:13
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
RiTides wrote: House rule or not, most people prefer to play single FOC... and thus a single FOC report will be more useful to most people.
That said, I hope the nids wreck face and that your next one is a single FOC
Other armies get to use allies, at 2k and above I often find Nids struggling for the places in the FOC without doubling up.
Not only that, but they get dataslate units and formations as well.
What do Tyranids get?
Oh well...here's to hoping that they will eventually re-release the Doom, even if it's on a dataslate. He's such a highly sought commodity that I bet GW would make a killing off of him from those money-grabbing-slates.
For those who haven't seen jifel's review of the Tyranid codex, you should check it out. It's much more detailed than mine and with lots of great info. Highly recommended.
Maybe its an Oz verse Yank thing but from my own experience double FOC is a casual format. Heck I can beat a single FOC tau army with almost every other book utilizing double FOC. Dual FOC > allies.
That would depend. Most codices can benefit from it, but not all. Usually, the more elitist armies won't benefit as much from double-FOC's. Actually, IMO Tau won't really benefit from double-FOC's as well. They need their support units. That's what makes them such a great army - the force multipliers in the army. For example, I honestly don't feel that a 6 riptide Tau list is as good as a normal Ovesa-star list and so on. So goes with Daemons and Eldar. I think that they may actually be better going single-FOC than double-FOC. And no, I don't think a 6 wraithknight list is all that great.
I tried a 'refined' list using the Swarmlord and Flyrant last night and Im not pleased with the results. I lost, which is fine (Because I also wasted points on a Haruspex to try him out in a real life game to no avail) But I feel like the points just cant be justified on a slow bullet magnet.
I love the bonus to reserve rolls, losing that on Tyrants hurt me big. I was able to deep strike Trygon Prime/Mawloc/Crone all on turn two.
Mawloc WRECKED FACE. She landed perfectly on 9 bikers in a Dark Angels list and doubled tapped them all off the board. She then failed to kill the Land Raider beside her and died.
Crone came in and hit a landraider with two tentaclids and...I rolled two 1's. She then got gunned down out of the sky (I rolled horribly on all saves last night)
Trygon Prime performed great as always, but thats a given.
I really think Flyrant/Deathleaper are going to be my HQ's for a long while.
Also, I'm for the next few games using Spike Rifles on all Gaunts...too many games have gone where those units never shoot simply because they are holding an object and targets are slightly out of range. I'd rather be wounding on a 5 up than not wounding at all.
Thanks for sharing. Both on this thread and with your battle reports. We need more of those.
BTW, you are really lucky to have your spouse share in the hobby/game with you. That's a keeper.
CleverAntics wrote: Are Tervigons still considered mandatory? I tend to like to run a heavy MC/FMC list, and at 1500 pts have 7x with counting Mama. Been thinking about adding 2x 3-man Warrior squads with Barbed Stranglers, and think they'd be more useful; sure, Mama can spawn babies, but having 2x 3-man Synapse units behind an ADL with Venomthrope shrouding would benefit the Warriors a bit more. Not to mention making the backfield Synapse print bigger by putting them at each side of the ADL as far as they'll go.
Then there's the psychic potential of Mama. Not entirely sure which one to do. Might try both and see which one I like. I just think Mama would have a bigger target on her head and even with a 2+ cover save might find some trouble. I dunno.
No, she's not. But despite the nerfs to her, I think she's still worth running in a Tyranid army. The tervigon isn't a must-take like she was last edition, but she still is a good and very important unit.
Gak! So let me ask you all then, what should I do with this guy?
I guess I can rip his arms off (onooes but I used glue) and replace them with bone swords to make him a Swarmloard or something? Whats the playability of a Hive Tyrant with double cannons hanging out as a back feild synapse anchor with a pair of Tyranofexz and venomthropes?
Or you could put wings on him. Then add some devourers.
Unfortunately, you can't put double-cannons on a TMC anymore. You could go with 1 cannon + devourers however. I also don't recommend you hanging him back. Tyranids win by advancing. You need to have something to threaten your opponent's forces. Having your main guy sit back and shoot just isn't going to cut it. Tyranids will get outshot every time by any shooty armies.
Nem wrote: Other than tweeks, think I have my first list for the weekend -Excited-. Wanted to put n 2/4 of the new units, see how they feel, and balance between range and CC (As I couldn't decide on one or the other in the end) . I'll be playing Ahrimans 1kSons and White scars biker spam (with extra Gravs probably), maybe a Eldar/Space wolves if the player turns up.
Spoiler:
1850
Deathleaper
FHT (x2Devs)
X2 Venomthrope
X1 Zoan
X1 Zoan
X9 Genestealer
X10 Genestealer
X30 Termagants
Tervigon (+ M Cannon)
Not sure if to take DL as Warlord and keep his given trait, or roll out on the table with HT. I'll be trying to save the GS's from dying a fiery doom curtsey of Tzeentch turn one as they want to tie up -some of-his force weapons before they start taking pot shots at the MC's, generally GS are early targets and are a weak point in the army. I expect most of the focus to be on none synaptic threats though, realistically neither army can afford to ignore the pressure units. Half this list will be in cover from the Gargoyles and/or Venoms, usually I am exposed to AP3 spam from 1Ksons so defensively this should actually be better (Note; we don't often have much cover on the table, I put more on, they take more off etc etc.).
Not worried about Crone or DL being out of synapse in particular. The ''Far forward'' units are fine without Synapse.
The downside of stacking the 2 Fex's into a unit are limited targeting and if they are left without synapse, advantage is you can swap out the front to push wounds around. I've gone with separate as I actually expect them to be a primary target for Helldrakes and Grav weapons, so I'm also splitting the possible wound pool.
It's been a while since I ran a cover list anyway, so will be fun.
I'd make the DL your Warlord. The flyrant is a high-priority target and more often than not, he's going to get shot down. If he's your WL as well, that's extra incentive for your opponents to shoot him down.
The list is solid and you seem to have a good game plan. Good luck.
Push the table-center with the gants, zoans shooting and venonthropes giving cover
Flyrants cover flanks
Sit the mom in the Aeguis and pop gants
Mawlocks eat
Thats all xD
You really don't need that many zoanthropes. I think units of 3 zoans are not efficient. I'd go no more than 2 zoans per unit and use the rest of the points elsewhere in your army. I also don't recommend a unit of 30 termagants if you're not taking a 2nd tervigon. IMO, unless you are going for a horde build, it is better to split off the termagants into 2 or 3 units of 10 to be able to spread out your troops. This will also give you more units to try to ground enemy FMC's. If you drop 2 zoans (use 2x2 zoans) and 10 gants (use 2x10 gants), now you've got enough points to run a harpy or something like that. Then your forward threats would be 2 flyrants, 1 harpy and 3 mawlocs. You now have a more dangerous army.
McNinja wrote: I personally won't be using many of the new models. Aside from from the fact that I want to wait for the supposed supplements, only the exocrine appeals to me. My lists will follow this outline:
-2 flyrants
-at least one unit of two zoanthropes
-at least two units of genestealers with broodlords for pinning
-at least one exocrine
-at least one trygon prime.
I'm very tempted to stick regeneration on everything I can just to see if it's useful.
That looks like a decent template for an army. I'm not high on the trygon prime, but if you want to give it a try, then go for it.
McNinja wrote: Though I'm not a fan of the new codex, I've already got a bit of an army going, so I figure I'll finish it. What do you all think of something like this?
*If I'm not mistaken, this simply gives the Prime re-rolls to wound against models T6 or lower. Since this codex is the first time I've seen the Poisoned rule without a bracketed number, I'm unsure.
A lot of synapse, and the main troops don't care about synapse. I would try to use the Broodlords for their Horror power, since its a great suppression power. I really hope that the supplements breathe new life into this codex so we can all take that sigh of relief.
I am hesitant to spam broodlords. With just 10 gants and 15 stealers, your troops are somewhat squishy. They won't last very long against Tau or Eldar.
If you playtest them, I'd like to hear how they did.
PrinceOfMadness wrote: I had a (heavily proxied) 2000 pt game earlier today versus my buddy's Necrons. Deployment was Hammer & Anvil, Mission was the Relic. I was trying out as many things as I could versus his list (which isn't super competitive by any means). For those interested, our lists were:
Fast Attack:
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Spore Mines x 3 (15)
Heavy Support:
Mawloc (155)
- Adrenal Glands
Biovores x 3 (120)
Carnifexes x 3 (480)
- Adrenal Glands, Thresher Scythes, TL Devourers w/ Brainleech
Necrons:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Imotekh the Stormlord (340)
- Royal Court:
--Harbinger of Eternity (Chronometron)
--Necron Lord (Orb, Warscythe)
Necron Overlord (240)
-Catacomb Command Barge (Tesla), Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Mindshackle Scarabs
Troops:
Necron Warriors x 15 (195)
Necron Warriors x 8 (219)
- Ghost Ark
Necron Warriors x 10 (130)
Fast Attack:
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Wraiths x 5 (205)
- 3 x Whip Coils
Heavy Support:
Monolith (200)
Doomsday Ark (175)
Doomsday Ark (175)
My thoughts on the game:
I rolled fantastic for psychic power generation and Warlord traits, and even managed to seize the initiative. This was offset somewhat by generally poor assault rolls in the actual game, but I think this helped make the game for me.
Mawloc was a huge disappointment. I had him all set to come up under a bunch of Warriors, then he scattered right under the Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
MVP for the game was definitely my Venomthropes. Between that and stacking ablative wounds in front, most of my guys were rocking 2-3+ cover saves for most of the game.
Synapse was never really an issue for me. The only time I had a unit out of synapse range was when I ran some Gargoyles a little too far ahead. They took some wounds and fell back right into synapse range, immediately regrouping.
The squad of three Zoeys was nice for having extra Wounds, but it was really annoying having a triple Warp Blast get shut down by a lucky Deny the Witch roll...twice in a row! I may drop to one or two Zoeys in future.
Overall I think there are some great options available to Nids in the new codex. We'll struggle against anything that ignores cover, but then again, most Xeno armies do. Catalyst granting FNP to two units is fantastic and helps offset the loss of Biomancy. Tervigons are still great at providing target saturation. I don't think the new Dex is going to be as mono-build as everyone fears.
Thanks for sharing! Greatly appreciated.
I don't recommend the 3 zoan configuration. It's not very efficient IMO. I wouldn't go with more than 2 zoans in 1 unit.
So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
I think he's somewhat over-costed, especially considering how short the range is. Then again, I'm somewhat biased towards the TL-devourers. To me, it's either 2x TL-D's or just naked and maybe with Adrenal Glands. Then again, I tend to run very few upgrades on my units.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
The Biovores were decent. I didn't get full mileage out of them because my opponent got his foot squads (Scarabs and Wraiths) into melee rather quickly. Though I did have one turn where they scored a whopping 25 wounds when my opponent pulled his large Warrior brick from Reserve with the Monolith!
I feel like the Dakkafexes are good, but due to me not offering enough sacrifices to the dice gods this week, they had some truly atrocious rolls. They did me the favor of tying up my opponent's Wraiths for pretty much the entire game though (I just COULD NOT put out more than 1 ID Wound every turn with them. It was maddening!) They did, however, manage to kill off a couple of the Wraiths with their shooting.
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 07:52:24
DT:80+S++G++M--B--IPw40k11+D+A+++/cWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 8000, mostly painted
14000, all over the place
2014/01/16 07:53:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
About the Doom of Malantai, Jy, I heard today from someone at my store, that they had to drop them because chapter house own the rights to the model! So there will be no Doom, Parasite or Spore, Ever!
Someone who is better versed in the whole GW vs Chapter house issue maybe able to confirm, or quash that though?
Perhaps it's best let by gones, be by gones. And concentrate on what we have here to work with.
My list for Sunday, 3k. Do t shoot me people I have double FOC
Flyrant, LW and Bonesword, TL devourers, regen, hive commander. (LW/BS is a wysiwyg)
Eldercaveman wrote: About the Doom of Malantai, Jy, I heard today from someone at my store, that they had to drop them because chapter house own the rights to the model! So there will be no Doom, Parasite or Spore, Ever!
Don't understand why Doom would be an issue- just release a new Zoan kit with a different head.
However I could see why Spores would be an issue. This is what people get for being so happy about CH outcome in the lawsuit. I had not considered that angle before, I knew GW would not want to continue feeding money into a different company but thought they should just make there own models rather than scrapping the codex entries- however that doesn't actually seem like an option due to mannor in which Chapter house sold the alternative models.
Now many 3rd party companies legally make alternative models for the GW range whether it is "futuristic imperial soldiers" or ""giant spacebug seed pods" it did not hurt the hobby as a whole. Chapterhouse went ahead and made models from the codex entries in the Space Wolf and Tyranid ranges very specifically being their thunderwolf calvary. By doing this they put GW at this legal trouble since if GW released, as an example, their own Thunderwolf Calvary model they could be sued by Chapterhouse for attacking Chapterhouses IP! By doing so a few results have come out of this problem, some good and bad. This quite literally screwed tyranid players looking for newer models. It also left the door open for any model to be made by any company for a codex entry that does not have a GW published model and then sue Games Workshop
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 09:44:39
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic
2014/01/16 12:59:22
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Mawloc was a huge disappointment. I had him all set to come up under a bunch of Warriors, then he scattered right under the Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
You have to admit, that's pretty funny.
Mawloc is digging at full speed expecting to get a meal and ruins into a metal wall instead...it's "Tremors" all over again.
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
Extra attacks from multiple weapons have never been in the profile of any model on the game, why would they start doing it with Tyranids?
Aldp , doing so would mess with calculating number of attacks when Smashing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 13:01:35
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/01/16 13:03:33
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
The Biovores were decent. I didn't get full mileage out of them because my opponent got his foot squads (Scarabs and Wraiths) into melee rather quickly. Though I did have one turn where they scored a whopping 25 wounds when my opponent pulled his large Warrior brick from Reserve with the Monolith!
I feel like the Dakkafexes are good, but due to me not offering enough sacrifices to the dice gods this week, they had some truly atrocious rolls. They did me the favor of tying up my opponent's Wraiths for pretty much the entire game though (I just COULD NOT put out more than 1 ID Wound every turn with them. It was maddening!) They did, however, manage to kill off a couple of the Wraiths with their shooting.
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
Attacks included in the unit's profile doesn't happen anymore. That was a 3rd-4th ed thing, and died out after they realized how confusing it was.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/01/16 13:24:33
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
PrinceOfMadness wrote: I had a (heavily proxied) 2000 pt game earlier today versus my buddy's Necrons. Deployment was Hammer & Anvil, Mission was the Relic. I was trying out as many things as I could versus his list (which isn't super competitive by any means). For those interested, our lists were:
Fast Attack:
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Spore Mines x 3 (15)
Heavy Support:
Mawloc (155)
- Adrenal Glands
Biovores x 3 (120)
Carnifexes x 3 (480)
- Adrenal Glands, Thresher Scythes, TL Devourers w/ Brainleech
Necrons:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Imotekh the Stormlord (340)
- Royal Court:
--Harbinger of Eternity (Chronometron)
--Necron Lord (Orb, Warscythe)
Necron Overlord (240)
-Catacomb Command Barge (Tesla), Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Mindshackle Scarabs
Troops:
Necron Warriors x 15 (195)
Necron Warriors x 8 (219)
- Ghost Ark
Necron Warriors x 10 (130)
Fast Attack:
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Wraiths x 5 (205)
- 3 x Whip Coils
Heavy Support:
Monolith (200)
Doomsday Ark (175)
Doomsday Ark (175)
My thoughts on the game:
I rolled fantastic for psychic power generation and Warlord traits, and even managed to seize the initiative. This was offset somewhat by generally poor assault rolls in the actual game, but I think this helped make the game for me.
Mawloc was a huge disappointment. I had him all set to come up under a bunch of Warriors, then he scattered right under the Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
MVP for the game was definitely my Venomthropes. Between that and stacking ablative wounds in front, most of my guys were rocking 2-3+ cover saves for most of the game.
Synapse was never really an issue for me. The only time I had a unit out of synapse range was when I ran some Gargoyles a little too far ahead. They took some wounds and fell back right into synapse range, immediately regrouping.
The squad of three Zoeys was nice for having extra Wounds, but it was really annoying having a triple Warp Blast get shut down by a lucky Deny the Witch roll...twice in a row! I may drop to one or two Zoeys in future.
Overall I think there are some great options available to Nids in the new codex. We'll struggle against anything that ignores cover, but then again, most Xeno armies do. Catalyst granting FNP to two units is fantastic and helps offset the loss of Biomancy. Tervigons are still great at providing target saturation. I don't think the new Dex is going to be as mono-build as everyone fears.
How did the unit of 3 Carnifexes perform for you? Was it overkill or worth taking?
Edit: Ah, page rollover, you already answered this!
I am interested in knowing if Roxor08's trick is viable. If not, how will you get your Fexes cover to then hopefully buff with a venomthrope? Gargoyles screening???
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 13:38:36
2014/01/16 14:07:59
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
OK so the general consensus is that scything talons are bad now right?
Basically I want to math hammer these guys out and see if the extra attack is worth double the points and the loss of rerolling 1's.
5 MEQ with WS 4 = 70
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 80 (old price old price with talons)
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 90 (new price with talons)
Stealer on MEQ hits on 3?
MEQ on Stealer hits on 4?
Old Codex:
On charge the Stealer has 3 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
New Codex:
On charge with scything talons giving extra attack the Stealer has 4 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
Stealer hits what on average 13.3 out of 20 attacks with the new codex, whereas before they hit with maybe 10 out of 15?
Old codex they may have rolled what 2.5 1's out of 15 attacks? With reroll's on those 1's they would have rolled what 1.6 of them as hits?
So does this translate into?
13.3 hits out of 20 in new codex
11.6 hits out of 15 in old codex
So for 20 points versus the old 10 points we are getting roughly 1.7 more hits with 5 stealers against 5 MEQ? How do you all feel about that? Is 10 points worth maybe 2 more hits with 5 nids? Sure it isn't worth it in some cases where other nids have loss a profile attack and then got it back via scything talons, but with the stealers they are at least getting some benefit from the point increase and loss of rerolls.
2014/01/16 15:38:45
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
2014/01/16 16:01:47
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
Yeah, for 18 points per model, for a model that still don't have access to assault grenades. So when you're assaulting any competent opponent while you may be able to boast about your 4 rending attacks per model (on the charge) you're also going to loose an almost guaranteed 1 model per hit.
This is compounded by players kitting units with flamers.
My advice is don't spend the extra 4 ppm and keeps your genestealer units small if you're adamant about bringing them.
EDIT: I take that back, if you successfully cast the horror, and it isn't denied, and the unit is pinned, the charging unit isn't penalized for charging through terrain against a unit that is pinned... So average chance of your unit being unaffected by terrain is = 10/12 * 5/6 * 5/12.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 16:33:53
2014/01/16 16:34:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
Yeah, for 18 points per model, for a model that still don't have access to assault grenades. So when you're assaulting any competent opponent while you may be able to boast about your 4 rending attacks per model (on the charge) you're also going to loose an almost guaranteed 1 model per hit.
This is compounded by players kitting units with flamers.
My advice is don't spend the extra 4 ppm and keeps your genestealer units small if you're adamant about bringing them.
My two cents? No one I play uses flamers save for IG...because they have enough squads and points to fit a unit for that purpose. And other than that, stealers never lose combat? What's the heartiest thing you're going to commonly hit? Marines...which suck in combat, save Templar.
That being said, you'll probably still win without scytals, and by forgoing them on 7 stealers I would be able to get two more stealers. Kitting a unit with them is not too smart.
Now let's say you have a unit of 9+Broody...kitting broody and 3 other stealers in the back of the unit with scytals while the front guys get toasted for 14 points a piece, a much better tactic.
Edit: I'm currently doing the same thing with my dakkafexes, putting a stock one up in front of dakkafexes, and letting him tank some wounds without spending worthless upgrades on him because he's going to die before he reaches his threat range anyways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 16:43:36
Why 2000 pt DOC? Probably the worst way to prove a point is by using an optional rule change that directly boosts the nids biggest weak spots.
I'd like to see a 1750 TAC list deal with a decent opponent. And no, it doesn't even need to be Taudar, feth Taudar I think most people are bored with them anyway
Still looking forward to the match, just not going to garner the information I think was more being sought after.
Ugh!
People still think Double FOC is optional and not playing it at 2k isn't a house ruling used by tournaments.
That would be because it is optional. You are not required to use it at 2k and above, it simply becomes and available option. And one that alot of places and groups just don't use. In fact only the 1 HQ and 2 Troops are required, everything else is optional.
Removing that option is a house rule and making it required is also a house rule.
2014/01/16 16:49:04
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
But is this extra attack already figured into the Carnifex's profile? I know the Trygon lost an attack on his profile and now gets it back via two sets of melee weapons, so I am betting it is the same for the Carnifex. His profile doesn't show the extra attack even though he has two sets of scything talons equipped stock. I am betting this is like this to help with the inevitable confusion when someone replaces ccw with a ranged weapon. His base attacks will not go down if scything talons are replaced with say a venom cannon.
2014/01/16 16:51:33
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Why 2000 pt DOC? Probably the worst way to prove a point is by using an optional rule change that directly boosts the nids biggest weak spots.
I'd like to see a 1750 TAC list deal with a decent opponent. And no, it doesn't even need to be Taudar, feth Taudar I think most people are bored with them anyway
Still looking forward to the match, just not going to garner the information I think was more being sought after.
Ugh!
People still think Double FOC is optional and not playing it at 2k isn't a house ruling used by tournaments.
That would be because it is optional. You are not required to use it at 2k and above, it simply becomes and available option. And one that alot of places and groups just don't use. In fact only the 1 HQ and 2 Troops are required, everything else is optional.
Removing that option is a house rule and making it required is also a house rule.
No it's in the rules.
Same way allies and fortifications are.
If you choose to utilise it or not is optional, same way if you choose to use your third Heavy Support at 1500 points for E.G.
What is a house rule, is when some says, let's play 2k but only 1 FOC.
But this is all very off topic. And I like jy2 so let's not drag his thread down.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
But is this extra attack already figured into the Carnifex's profile? I know the Trygon lost an attack on his profile and now gets it back via two sets of melee weapons, so I am betting it is the same for the Carnifex. His profile doesn't show the extra attack even though he has two sets of scything talons equipped stock. I am betting this is like this to help with the inevitable confusion when someone replaces ccw with a ranged weapon. His base attacks will not go down if scything talons are replaced with say a venom cannon.
It's no longer included in the profile. This was done to avoid confusion and streamline the rules. I always explain it like this (1 pair of scything talons = 1 AP6 Chainsword)
It also tones down godfex builds by making choose to some degree if you want shooty fexes or assault fexes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote: But this is all very off topic. And I like jy2 so let's not drag his thread down.
Normally I don't share my tactics with the internet, 10% for fear of them being used against me and 90% because of the presence of trolls, but the general demeanor of this thread has been quite pleasant overall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 16:56:47
I don’t think it’s a good idea to take upgrades on your stealers unless you are tailoring against a specific unit.
Apart from the cost, stealers will beat almost anything in combat as they are. In fact you want them to be less killy in the first place because if you murder your opponents too badly in the first assault then they are more likely to run and you will have to eat another turn of rapid fire shooting. Very few units will still be around after a protracted fist fight with a genestealer so what’s the rush??
In this regard, even apart from the cost, definitely adrenal glands are a terrible idea (unless against lots of vehicles) toxin sacs and scything talons are also probably a bad idea.
2014/01/16 17:13:11
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
ozziee wrote: In this regard, even apart from the cost, definitely adrenal glands are a terrible idea (unless against lots of vehicles) toxin sacs and scything talons are also probably a bad idea.
I have to disagree with Toxin Sacs, that's largely a question that depends on your personal meta. and their use of T5+ models.
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
Focus fire completely ruins this strategy, just focus on the guy out front until he is dead then switch units as the other unit now has no screen.
As to the Doom and wishful thinking, unless he comes with his one form of deep strike he will still suck even if he doesn't change at all which I doubt. Has anyone ever had consistent success using the doom footslogging?
As to the comments by Eldercaveman about chapterhouse, your facts are off and I suggest reading through the lawsuit thread rather then muddy the waters here. It doesn't work the way your suggesting. I do think they wanted to cut back on rules without models, but I am thinking it has more to do with production costs and model development as to whether it was dropped. I read that GW is reaching it's ceiling on making these kits due to cost, that's why you see so many dual kits these days, and less per release.
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
Focus fire completely ruins this strategy, just focus on the guy out front until he is dead then switch units as the other unit now has no screen.
As to the Doom and wishful thinking, unless he comes with his one form of deep strike he will still suck even if he doesn't change at all which I doubt. Has anyone ever had consistent success using the doom footslogging?
As to the comments by Eldercaveman about chapterhouse, your facts are off and I suggest reading through the lawsuit thread rather then muddy the waters here. It doesn't work the way your suggesting. I do think they wanted to cut back on rules without models, but I am thinking it has more to do with production costs and model development as to whether it was dropped. I read that GW is reaching it's ceiling on making these kits due to cost, that's why you see so many dual kits these days, and less per release.
Like I said, I didn't know how accurate it was. The guy who told me is usually pretty well read up on these things. And like you have, I asked for some one more versed in the issue than me to clarify, so thank you. I'm not reading through that monstrosity of a thread though. Legal proceedings are mind numbingly boring.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
But is this extra attack already figured into the Carnifex's profile? I know the Trygon lost an attack on his profile and now gets it back via two sets of melee weapons, so I am betting it is the same for the Carnifex. His profile doesn't show the extra attack even though he has two sets of scything talons equipped stock. I am betting this is like this to help with the inevitable confusion when someone replaces ccw with a ranged weapon. His base attacks will not go down if scything talons are replaced with say a venom cannon.
It isn't for any other model in the codex, so why would it be for the Carnifex?
2014/01/16 17:31:33
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
Focus fire completely ruins this strategy, just focus on the guy out front until he is dead then switch units as the other unit now has no screen.
As to the Doom and wishful thinking, unless he comes with his one form of deep strike he will still suck even if he doesn't change at all which I doubt. Has anyone ever had consistent success using the doom footslogging?
As to the comments by Eldercaveman about chapterhouse, your facts are off and I suggest reading through the lawsuit thread rather then muddy the waters here. It doesn't work the way your suggesting. I do think they wanted to cut back on rules without models, but I am thinking it has more to do with production costs and model development as to whether it was dropped. I read that GW is reaching it's ceiling on making these kits due to cost, that's why you see so many dual kits these days, and less per release.
Like I said, I didn't know how accurate it was. The guy who told me is usually pretty well read up on these things. And like you have, I asked for some one more versed in the issue than me to clarify, so thank you. I'm not reading through that monstrosity of a thread though. Legal proceedings are mind numbingly boring.
No problem, I like legal stuff, but I admit to being a bit touched in the head
Heres a simple way to look at IP however. Lets look at tranformers as an example.
Tranforming robot? Not IP protected
Transforming robot names optimus prime? IP protected.
Since the Doom of Malantai is firmly anchored in GW's fluff in the 40k universe, its ridiculous to suggest they don't have the IP for him. Also, they already have models for Zoies so like I said, my best guess is a production issue if they choose to not re-release him (leaving room for future slates).
I still think that unless he gained DS somehow he would be terrible anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 17:32:33
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
I think he's somewhat over-costed, especially considering how short the range is. Then again, I'm somewhat biased towards the TL-devourers. To me, it's either 2x TL-D's or just naked and maybe with Adrenal Glands. Then again, I tend to run very few upgrades on my units.
Could someone tell me what a "Screamer Killer" Fex would be armed with, at least with this new book?
Sorry, did a bit of looking before asking and couldn't find the answer...
2014/01/16 17:33:25
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
I think he's somewhat over-costed, especially considering how short the range is. Then again, I'm somewhat biased towards the TL-devourers. To me, it's either 2x TL-D's or just naked and maybe with Adrenal Glands. Then again, I tend to run very few upgrades on my units.
Could someone tell me what a "Screamer Killer" Fex would be armed with, at least with this new book?
Sorry, did a bit of looking before asking and couldn't find the answer...
All scytals and bio plasma. Its a throwback reference to 2nd ed (possibly RT but I started in 2nd) this is how they came stalk and you couldn't really change their weapons back then. Screamer killer was slang guardsmen used to call them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 17:34:27
ozziee wrote: In this regard, even apart from the cost, definitely adrenal glands are a terrible idea (unless against lots of vehicles) toxin sacs and scything talons are also probably a bad idea.
I have to disagree with Toxin Sacs, that's largely a question that depends on your personal meta. and their use of T5+ models.
I dunno man, I think even quite a small squad of stealers is going to overwhelm almost anything in CC regardless of their toughness.
Of course I agree that depending on the meta different things might be worth it but in general the last thing you want to do to your opponents is kill them in Close combat.
In combat the genes generally get to use their WS, Int and armour to protect them, also then enemy is hitting you with their strength instead of the strength of their gun which is normally better. I’ve always found combat the safest place to be and I like to stay there as long as possible. The high attacks and rends will be telling on most opponents after a few rounds.
2014/01/16 17:44:04
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Lord Scythican wrote: OK so the general consensus is that scything talons are bad now right?
Basically I want to math hammer these guys out and see if the extra attack is worth double the points and the loss of rerolling 1's.
5 MEQ with WS 4 = 70
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 80 (old price old price with talons)
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 90 (new price with talons)
Stealer on MEQ hits on 3?
MEQ on Stealer hits on 4?
Old Codex:
On charge the Stealer has 3 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
New Codex:
On charge with scything talons giving extra attack the Stealer has 4 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
Stealer hits what on average 13.3 out of 20 attacks with the new codex, whereas before they hit with maybe 10 out of 15?
Old codex they may have rolled what 2.5 1's out of 15 attacks? With reroll's on those 1's they would have rolled what 1.6 of them as hits?
So does this translate into?
13.3 hits out of 20 in new codex
11.6 hits out of 15 in old codex
So for 20 points versus the old 10 points we are getting roughly 1.7 more hits with 5 stealers against 5 MEQ? How do you all feel about that? Is 10 points worth maybe 2 more hits with 5 nids? Sure it isn't worth it in some cases where other nids have loss a profile attack and then got it back via scything talons, but with the stealers they are at least getting some benefit from the point increase and loss of rerolls.
On paper in a pure math standpoint it would seem like a good idea. That MEQ also gets to shoot and overwatch, ( their bolters bypass a GS armor) with that alone the GS is pretty steep cost wise at its base.. If I ran them, I would do so naked.
and that your next one is a single 
So let me ask you all then, what should I do with this guy?
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
14000, all over the place 
~1660
10,000+ 
- 3000pts Rampagers